How good was Mats Sundin?

Gubbhornet

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Dec 5, 2019
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Being too young + living in Sweden, I never saw Sundin playing in the NHL. Of course I saw him playing for Sweden and he was one of our best players, but... he was nowhere near Peter Forsberg.

Forsberg could completely dominate a game regardless of competition. Mats Sundin never did that. On his plus side he was rarely injured and very consistent (apart from Belarus in 2002 olympics).

So, how good was he? Was he ever dominant in the NHL or was he (as his stats suggest) Mr Consistent? Peak wise how would you rank him against other Swedish forwards of the era such as Renberg, Alfredsson and Markus Näslund?
 

johan f

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Jun 23, 2008
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Sweden
He was very good or even geeat. Perhaps he would have scored more goals playing wing thru out the career but that required he had a good center. Which Toronto only had one of (Mats) when Gilmour left. Sundin exelled on the biggee ice surfase but of course had a superstar career in NHL. Did not have any real bona fide lines mates. He was at times too defensive oriented but was a must considering what kind of teams Leafs had for years. Sundin was a stud and belongs to the greats. No doubt.
 

GlitchMarner

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Jul 21, 2017
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He may be my favorite player of all-time.

He was his generation's Tavares more or less. Consistent high-level centre who wasn't quite on par with the absolute best Cs of his time but was still a great player who could elevate a team and inferior linemates. Very clutch. Scored all kinds of crucial points.

Like Tavares on the Island, he doesn't have the greatest peak on paper (JT is a two-time Hart finalist, but I still don't find his best seasons that amazing compared to those of some other elite players of his time), but he also didn't get to play on any sort of a stacked line very often (played with jabronis like Hoglund and post-Philly Renberg when he finished fourth in League scoring).

He was dominant Internationally, though.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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I always felt he was a lot better than the sum of his stats. He was an absolute beast I think in the world cup of 96.

Sundin is often a player I mention who is like this. Probably better than the PPG year after year - even in the dead puck era - that he was. Didn't have the linemates he needed and carried the load a lot in Toronto but was never injured, never took a game off and for the life of me I never understand the flack he sometimes got by the fans. He gave his blood to that team. No, he didn't fight and wasn't overly physical but he used his size for much different things. He was very hard to knock off the puck as well because of his size and reach and such. Part of the reason he had such a good backhand was that he could spread his legs open and protect the puck giving him the opportunity to roof it.

Sundin was not soft by any means, I would consider Matthews soft on the Leafs, and unable (so far) to play when the going got tough. Sundin wasn't a playoff monster, but he was never the reason the Leafs lost. Had a career similar to Mike Modano (styles were different) in that they were consistently very good for a long time. Consistently a top 15-20ish player in the game year after year. I like the above John Tavares comparison too.
 

scott clam

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Sep 12, 2018
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I used to think he was overrated, now I think he's underrated.

He was so big he could do pretty much anything the Leafs needed from him.
 

Pominville Knows

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Sep 28, 2012
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Being too young + living in Sweden, I never saw Sundin playing in the NHL. Of course I saw him playing for Sweden and he was one of our best players, but... he was nowhere near Peter Forsberg.

Forsberg could completely dominate a game regardless of competition. Mats Sundin never did that. On his plus side he was rarely injured and very consistent (apart from Belarus in 2002 olympics).

So, how good was he? Was he ever dominant in the NHL or was he (as his stats suggest) Mr Consistent? Peak wise how would you rank him against other Swedish forwards of the era such as Renberg, Alfredsson and Markus Näslund?
You say you just saw Sundin on the national team. There he was every bit as good as Forsberg.
 

Mulletman

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Feb 23, 2013
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Sundin might very well be the most underrated player of all time. He's easily the best Leaf player and the best Swedish player of all time. Sundin had consistency and tegridy and did most of his production by himself since he played mostly with terrible linemates. And he did it while playing under huge pressure from the media and the fans in Toronto. Put Sundin in Anaheim between Selanne and Kariya were he could play without pressure and he would've been a multiple 100 point player too.
 

VictorLustig

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Feb 8, 2012
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With this I just disagree. Forsberg could single handedly turn a game around. I never saw Sundin do that. But of course he was very good.

This is just plain wrong. Sundin is one of the top performers of all time in any national team jersey. He outscored Forsberg pretty much every time they played on the same team.
 
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NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
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He had that funny long, loping skating stride where it looked like he wasn’t really trying out there.

I think it was easy to underestimate him because he often looked like he was coasting around on the ice. He had a big frame so he didn’t really need to move his feet that quickly.

I’ve seen a fair amount of both he and Forsberg over the years, and they played diametrically different styles.

Forsberg was extremely noticeable out there, with a choppy skating stride who played a very physical brand of hockey.

For me, personally, Forsberg was one of the most dominant skaters I’d ever seen live. He didn’t have to have a huge hockey IQ because he was a bull with the puck and guys just bounced right off him trying to get the puck off his stick. Jagr could also protect the puck using his large frame and lean, but Forsberg did it in a much more brutal and physical manner.

IIRC, he tied a game late for Colorado against Ottawa, after basically ragging the puck for 30 seconds around the Senators net, guys flying at him, holding him, launching themselves at him, trying everything to stop him, and failing. People (including myself) got up to applaud because it was too impressive to ignore.

In the immediate aftermath of Lemieux and Gretzky’s swansongs, I think it was between Forsberg and Jagr as to who the best forward in the world was. I don’t think Sundin was ever in that conversation, but you won’t find a much more consistently excellent player than Mats.
 
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VictorLustig

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Feb 8, 2012
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He had that funny long, loping skating stride where it looked like he wasn’t really trying out there.

I think it was easy to underestimate him because he often looked like he was coasting around on the ice. He had a big frame so he didn’t really need to move his feet that quickly.

I’ve seen a fair amount of both he and Forsberg over the years, and they played diametrically different styles.

Forsberg was extremely noticeable out there, with a choppy skating stride who played a very physical brand of hockey.

For me, personally, Forsberg was one of the most dominant skaters I’d ever seen live. He didn’t have to have a huge hockey IQ because he was a bull with the puck and guys just bounced right off him trying to get the puck off his stick. Jagr could also protect the puck using his large frame and lean, but Forsberg did it in a much more brutal and physical manner.

IIRC, he tied a game late for Colorado against Ottawa, after basically ragging the puck for 30 seconds around the Senators net, guys flying at him, holding him, launching themselves at him, trying everything to stop him, and failing. People (including myself) got up to applaud because it was too impressive to ignore.

In the immediate aftermath of Lemieux and Gretzky’s swansongs, I think it was between Forsberg and Jagr as to who the best forward in the world was. I don’t think Sundin was ever in that conversation, but you won’t find a much more consistently excellent player than Mats.

Wait, Forsberg didn't have huge IQ? I've never seen a smarter Swedish forward myself, aside from Elias Pettersson perhaps. Forsberg was an average skater but had pretty much everything else in his game, even a good shot which he rarely used.
 
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NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
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Wait, Forsberg didn't have huge IQ? I've never seen a smarter Swedish forward myself, aside from Elias Pettersson.

I never said he didn’t have one.

I meant he often didn’t need one. His physical attributes allowed him to play some very direct one-dimensional hockey.

Another guy like that was Marian Hossa, who had a very good hockey IQ but occasionally would just skate around the zone with the puck, holding a guy off with one hand before working his way to the front of the net for a goal.

Some players needed linemates to produce, while others were capable of seemingly manufacturing offence entirely on their own, sometimes outnumbered to a hilarious degree.
 
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JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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So, how good was he? Was he ever dominant in the NHL or was he (as his stats suggest) Mr Consistent? Peak wise how would you rank him against other Swedish forwards of the era such as Renberg, Alfredsson and Markus Näslund?

Very good. Not a contender for best player in the world but consistently in the group below. A good franchise cornerstone in that he provided consistent, dependable production at an important position and didn't really have holes in his game. I don't think that dominant describes him, but he was certainly consistent. He was weirdly overrated due to being a prominent Toronto player, but also overly ripped by many fans and media members because he didn't play the way that many wanted, given that he was huge and it was a physical era. In terms of peak he is comparable to Naslund and Alfredsson, but I would certainly take Sundin overall as a player and quite possibly at peak as well. Renberg doesn't belong in that conversation.
 
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NyQuil

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Jan 5, 2005
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Personally I think that Alfredsson and Sundin are very comparable, but this conversation has been had on this board many times and doesn’t need to be repeated here yet again.

Needless to say, the comparison offends some people which is understandable given the provincial rivalry during their careers.

Fewer players had more success internationally as well so Sundin holds a special place in the hearts of Swedes.
 

Gubbhornet

Registered User
Dec 5, 2019
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This is just plain wrong. Sundin is one of the top performers of all time in any national team jersey. He outscored Forsberg pretty much every time they played on the same team.

Go through the stats again please. Note that Forsberg almost always came into the IIHF tournaments later due to playoffs.
 

Cruor

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May 12, 2012
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Go through the stats again please. Note that Forsberg almost always came into the IIHF tournaments later due to playoffs.

Sundin in WHC: 49 GP, 1.14 PPG

Forsberg in WHC 33 GP, 0.88 PPG

Sundin in OG: 16 GP, 1.25 PPG

Forsberg in OG: 22 GP, 0.91 PPG

I think during their golden years together in Tre Kronor Forsberg was regarded as the more skilled player, while Sundin was regarded as the leader that would get things done. I guess you can ask the Finns about that.
 

Gubbhornet

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Dec 5, 2019
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Sundin in WHC: 49 GP, 1.14 PPG

Forsberg in WHC 33 GP, 0.88 PPG

Sundin in OG: 16 GP, 1.25 PPG

Forsberg in OG: 22 GP, 0.91 PPG

I think during their golden years together in Tre Kronor Forsberg was regarded as the more skilled player, while Sundin was regarded as the leader that would get things done. I guess you can ask the Finns about that.

Go tournament per tournament. Notice that in a whc tournament a higher point per game is expected when playing more games. Since you play more games against italy and those sort of teams. Also notice that Sundin did not make one final without Forsberg apart from 91 when Forsberg was a junior.
 

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