How good was Mats Sundin?

[leafsfuture]

Compared to more recent NHL centers, who do you pick between...

Mats Sundin or Evgeni Malkin - obviously Malkin. Shouldnt need to say much

Mats Sundin or Niklas Backstrom - Should be Mats. Backstrom is statistically similar but on higher scoring teams. Mats had less support.

Mats Sundin or Jonathan Toews - Bias here will say Mats. Mats is better internationally as crazy as it may sound, and I think he was more of a game breaker than Toews.

Mats Sundin or Joe Thornthon - tossup. Thornton has a Hart and an Art Ross, but Mats was MUCH better internationally.

Mats Sundin or Henrik Sedin - Mats. Despite Henrik winning a Art Ross, Mats ended up with 300 more points in a similar number of games played.

Mats Sundin or Eric Staal - Easily Mats. More consistent, more points in a tighter era

Mats Sundin or Anze Kopitar - ill actually go Kopitar. Better two-way forward, and is actually a lot better internationally than people realize. This is again close though.

So really only Malkin is easily ahead of Mats. Everyone else IMO is similar or slightly worse.
Mats consistency into his 30s is what really stands out - Staal, Backstrom and Kopitar have all had offensive lulls that Mats NEVER had

 

[BraveCanadian]

So really only Malkin is easily ahead of Mats. Everyone else IMO is similar or slightly worse.
Mats consistency into his 30s is what really stands out - Staal, Backstrom and Kopitar have all had offensive lulls that Mats NEVER had

As a Leafs fan I'd take Kopitar over Sundin 10 times out of 10.

He's way better defensively and brings a big game in the playoffs.

 

[Mickey Marner]

His frequent use of the slapshot notwithstanding, he's basically the desired prototype for a modern center. Funny how much crap he got for being 'soft', yet he was much more physical than, say, Auston Matthews, who doesn't receive nearly as much scorn.

 

[GlitchMarner]

His frequent use of the slapshot notwithstanding, he's basically the desired prototype for a modern center. Funny how much crap he got for being 'soft', yet he was much more physical than, say, Auston Matthews, who doesn't receive nearly as much scorn.

I guess that's because he was traded for Clark (who was very physical) and because of the era in which he played. Nowadays, you can't expect a scoring centre to play much of a physical game. Matthews, McDavid, MacKinnon, Eichel, Pettersson etc aren't known for their hitting ability.

Then again, it's not like players like Yzerman, Sakic, Modano or Turgeon hit a ton, either.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I guess that's because he was traded for Clark (who was very physical) and because of the era in which he played. Nowadays, you can't expect a scoring centre to play much of a physical game. Matthews, McDavid, MacKinnon, Eichel, Pettersson etc aren't known for their hitting ability.

Then again, it's not like players like Yzerman, Sakic, Modano or Turgeon hit a ton, either.

Let's not forget how many people must have listened to Don Cherry at that time and we all know he hated that Clark was traded for Sundin, even though it's one of the top 2 trades in Leafs history. The other one being of course when they traded for Doug Gilmour.

 

[scott clam]

Let's not forget how many people must have listened to Don Cherry at that time and we all know he hated that Clark was traded for Sundin, even though it's one of the top 2 trades in Leafs history. The other one being of course when they traded for Doug Gilmour.

If it were any other market, Sundin wouldn't have faced half the criticism he did from the "rock 'em sock 'em" crowd.

Honestly, the guy was built to last in the Clutch and Grab era. Not quite as much of a tank as Jagr, but one of the best at protecting the puck through traffic. He doesn't get enough credit for all the games he didn't miss, during those years.

 

[LeafsNation75]

If it were any other market, Sundin wouldn't have faced half the criticism he did from the "rock 'em sock 'em" crowd.

Honestly, the guy was built to last in the Clutch and Grab era. Not quite as much of a tank as Jagr, but one of the best at protecting the puck through traffic. He doesn't get enough credit for all the games he didn't miss, during those years.

The only time I ever remember Sundin missing multiple games with Toronto due to injury happened on opening night during the 2005-2006 season, when he got hit in the face with a puck and suffered a fracture orbital bone.

 

[scott clam]

The only time I ever remember Sundin missing multiple games with Toronto due to injury happened on opening night during the 2005-2006 season, when he got hit in the face with a puck and suffered a fracture orbital bone.

He did miss half of the '02 playoffs(with a broken wrist I think), but still came back to face the Hurricanes, and did this:

 

[mazmin]

He’s on the Scheifele/Eichel level. Elite but a step down from the top tier: McDavid, MacKinnon, Crosby.

(not a style comparison)

 

[LeafsNation75]

He did miss half of the '02 playoffs(with a broken wrist I think), but still came back to face the Hurricanes, and did this:

You're right and I can't believe I forgot that. I also remember thinking to myself after Sundin scored that goal that Toronto would win in overtime, win Game 7 and play in the Stanley Cup Final that year.

In fact after you brought up his injury in the 2002 playoffs, I remember he also got injured in Game 4 of the 2004 playoffs against Ottawa and didn't return until Game 2 in the second round against Philadelphia.

 

[Snauen]

Go tournament per tournament. Notice that in a whc tournament a higher point per game is expected when playing more games. Since you play more games against italy and those sort of teams. Also notice that Sundin did not make one final without Forsberg apart from 91 when Forsberg was a junior.

I think Sundin was even more "clutch" than Forsberg in the internationals. You talk about the 91-92 whc-s . Check out thoose tournaments again. He was just dominant, doing important game winning goals and such. He turned it up a notch playing in the yellow and blue, an icon.

 

[mattihp]

I think Sundin was even more "clutch" than Forsberg in the internationals. You talk about the 91-92 whc-s . Check out thoose tournaments again. He was just dominant, doing important game winning goals and such. He turned it up a notch playing in the yellow and blue, an icon.

He also called out guys not giving their all. In the famous turnaround against Finland in 0-3 he even coached the team to make the turnaround when the swedish coach had surrended.

 

[leafsfuture]

As a Leafs fan I'd take Kopitar over Sundin 10 times out of 10.

He's way better defensively and brings a big game in the playoffs.

I agree Kopitar at his peak was a BEAST, like top 5 player. Problem for Anze is that his floor is a lot lower than Mats. He has had several seasons where his offence just dries up. He scored 16 goals in 14/15 and 12 goals in 16/17.

Mats worst season apart from his rookie year and Vancouver was 28 goals and 74 points in 82 games.
That does count in terms of total career rating

 

[psycat]

Let's remember that Doug Gilmour in like 3 years left a much deeper mark in the Toronto fanbase's subconscious than Sundin did in 15 years.

Sundin was a legit #1 center, but he was a bit of a compiler too.

Sure he was a compiler, in the same sense as Crosby is a generational(that's all he is generational at btw) compiler. In neither case it's a bad thing quite the opposite. Incredibly concistent player I wont get into his ranking amongst Leaf's of all time but saying he "compiled" means EVERY player EVER is a compiler, which of course is kinda true.

 

[TheAngryHank]

30-50 for 80 points like clockwork.

 

[Boxscore]

Mats Sundin was a brilliant player--where do I start?

The first European player drafted 1st overall--he was a sensation in Sweden before arriving in Quebec. Young Mats didn't take long to get acclimated--but he was bone thin and lanky when he arrived. What I remembered about Sundin early on is that he looked like an alien with that big, bubble JOFA helmet and skinny frame. Nonetheless, Mats was a joy to watch. During his early-Quebec years, Mats was fast, agile and often looked very Lemieux-esque when he was stickhandling through defenses.

His trade to the Leafs was probably the greatest trade in franchise history and he matured into an absolute franchise cornerstone. At that point, Sundin was fully grown and was a 6-5, 230 pound monster with world class skill. I always considered Mats "Mario-light." He wasn't as great as Lemieux obviously, but he was a hulking, right shot centerman who could dazzle and put the puck in the net. He was also a horse logging time. And, holy smokes, was he dependable and clutch--Sundin showed up every night and had a knack for scoring big goals--he made Hockey Night in Canada fun to watch.

To me, Mats Sundin is the classic, "big, franchise centerman" who you could build around. Outside of Mario and Beliveau, there's not many of those big centerman I would choose over Sundin to build my franchise. Lindros, based on pedigree, but I would take Mats over Nieuwendyk, Bobby Smith, Alexei Yashin, Keith Primeau, Joel Otto, Pierre Turgeon and probably even Ron Francis and Evgeni Malkin--that's how much I loved Sundin.

In terms of Sundin vs. Forsberg--that is a killer. Both are among my all-time favorite players and I hate putting them up against each other because of it. Forsberg was one of the most complete and dangerous NHL players I've even seen, but as we all know, his prime was plagued with injuries due to his predatory style of play. Mats was more reliable, solid and dependable over the long haul. Both had world-class talent, although Forsberg was flashier and more dynamic. Forsberg the better set-up man and Mats the better finisher.

 

[Boxscore]

I agree Kopitar at his peak was a BEAST, like top 5 player.

There are no circumstances in which I would take prime Kopitar over prime Sundin--NONE.

Sundin was bigger, stronger, faster and had a way better shot arsenal. They were equally as good in the passing department. Kopitar was a little better defensively but Sundin was no slouch in his own end--he hustled, worked hard, and was also more physical.

 

[67 others]

Compared to more recent NHL centers, who do you pick between...

Mats Sundin or Evgeni Malkin

Mats Sundin or Niklas Backstrom

Mats Sundin or Jonathan Toews

Mats Sundin or Joe Thornthon

Mats Sundin or Henrik Sedin

Mats Sundin or Eric Staal

Mats Sundin or Anze Kopitar

Thornton and Malkin are well above Sundin.

The others are subject to debate

 

[Boxscore]

Compared to more recent NHL centers, who do you pick between...

Mats Sundin or Evgeni Malkin

Mats Sundin or Niklas Backstrom

Mats Sundin or Jonathan Toews

Mats Sundin or Joe Thornthon

Mats Sundin or Henrik Sedin

Mats Sundin or Eric Staal

Mats Sundin or Anze Kopitar

None of them, including Malkin.

Malkin had more talent and ability to put up monster numbers, but Mats did other things better--and he was ALWAYS reliable, dependable and clutch. To me, Sundin is a blend between Malkin and Kopitar, but bigger, more reliable, physical, and a better leader. In fact, as a leader, he was more comparable to Toews, but he was 6-5 and blessed with a way better shot. If Sundin was lucky enough to stay part of the Quebec/Colorado organization, he would have won his Cups and be more highly regarded today. Mats is one of the most--if not THE most--underrated players in NHL history IMO.

 

[scott clam]

Thornton and Malkin are well above Sundin.

The others are subject to debate

Malkin is definitely on a different tier, but when you look at Thornton's playoff record, is he really that much higher than Sundin?

 

[joe dirte]

Malkin is definitely on a different tier, but when you look at Thornton's playoff record, is he really that much higher than Sundin?

as a Leafs fan, I'll say yes.

Sundin was a top 5 to 10 NHL player at his best. Big, skilled, consistent, clutch. Malkin is a top 3 player at his peak, behind only OV and Crosby.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Let's not forget how many people must have listened to Don Cherry at that time and we all know he hated that Clark was traded for Sundin, even though it's one of the top 2 trades in Leafs history. The other one being of course when they traded for Doug Gilmour.

But Cherry became a big Sundin supporter later.

Recall him saying "Sundin's a horse. But he has to carry around two stiffs on his wings every night".

 

[joe dirte]

Being too young + living in Sweden, I never saw Sundin playing in the NHL. Of course I saw him playing for Sweden and he was one of our best players, but... he was nowhere near Peter Forsberg.

Forsberg could completely dominate a game regardless of competition. Mats Sundin never did that. On his plus side he was rarely injured and very consistent (apart from Belarus in 2002 olympics).

So, how good was he? Was he ever dominant in the NHL or was he (as his stats suggest) Mr Consistent? Peak wise how would you rank him against other Swedish forwards of the era such as Renberg, Alfredsson and Markus Näslund?

yes he was quite dominant. There were many, many, many games it seemed like if the Leafs needed to win, he'd just go win on his own.

 

[VanIslander]

Points:

1. I am a lifelong Leaf boo-er. Habs, Oilers, hometown Canucks go! Yet he impressed me greatly, surrounded by garbage in Toronto.

2. I went to five Leaf games during the few years I lived in Ontario (for grad school) and only three players wearing a Leaf were GREAT... Sundin, Yushkevich, Belfour. There was a lot of riff-raff.

3. OMG. How can you ignore his great international resume? Canada Cup, World Cup, the Olympics... how could anyone not put him top 200 all time?

4. I always cheer for Finns over Swedes, Habs over Leafs, yet Sundin was just too good to want to fail. No, I ain't talking stats. I'm talking shifts after shifts after shifts.

 

[plusandminus]

yes he was quite dominant. There were many, many, many games it seemed like if the Leafs needed to win, he'd just go win on his own.

Same when he played for Sweden. Seems like so many times he scored big goals for us. Probably better than Forsberg internationally, especially in big games. Great leader. Increased his relative production during Stanley Cup playoffs. Got stuck on a team usually without players who could help his points production during regular season. A success story everywhere else. Multiple All Star selection on best-on-best international tournaments, as well as World Championships. Very good finisher, for example on breakaways where it seemed he usually scored.

During age 20-21, Sundin outscored Joe Sakic when both played for QUE, despite Sakic being two years older). Per game slightly less though.
Sundin (20-21 years old): 160 gp, 80 goals, 210 pts, +2, 1.31 ppg.
Sakic (22-23 years old): 147 gp, 77 goals, 199 pts, +2, 1.35 ppg.
Then Sundin went to TOR, while Sakic got to play on a loaded COL where players like Forsberg helped his production and playoffs success.

North Americans knows Sundin from his NHL play, where he played on a relatively poor team, that rarely went far enough in the playoffs. Europeans knows him basically from his international play.
Put him on a contender and he likely would have won a few Stanley Cups, scoring some big goals on the way, and perhaps getting Conn Smythe consideration (see international play).

Very low profile off the ice compared to Forsberg and Salming. Sundin is basically never seen in the media, while Forsberg and Salming do are usually seen at least once per week (doing commercials and participating in different tv-programs).