How good was Mats Sundin?

[plusandminus]

I got a little obsessed by best scorers on own team, so I went through all seasons since 1954-55 to 2018-19. Looked at all players. Ordered by Pts, GP, G.

Best scorer on own team: Gretzky 19, Jagr 14, Sundin 13 , Dionne 13, Gordie 13 (17 all-time),
Top-2 scorer on own team: Gretzky 20, Jagr 18, Sundin 17, Francis 17, Dionne 16, Gordie 16 (20 all-time)
Consecutive top-2 scorer on own team: Sundin 17, Gordie 16 (20 all-time), Ovechkin 15 (including 2019-20, i.e. all his NHL seasons), Dionne 15, Gretzky 13, Brett Hull 13, Jagr 10, Thornton 10, Mikita 10. May be others with up to 13.

I did this study out of curiosity, to be able to compare Sundin to other players active since 1960s or so onwards.
It's in some ways a curiosity stat, as different internal competition gives different players different chances to lead their team.
But at least we can once again conclude that Sundin was very consistent and reliable.

By the way, Sundin's overall scoring finishes was better than Modano's.

Spoiler

2002 30 4 Mats Sundin 82 80
1997 25 7 Mats Sundin 82 94
2002 31 9 Mike Modano 78 77
2000 29 9 Mike Modano 77 81
2003 32 11 Mike Modano 79 85
1993 21 11 Mats Sundin 80 114
2004 32 12 Mats Sundin 81 75
1999 27 12 Mats Sundin 82 83
1999 28 13 Mike Modano 77 81
2001 30 14 Mike Modano 81 84
1998 26 15 Mats Sundin 82 74
1994 23 15 Mike Modano 76 93
1997 26 16 Mike Modano 80 83
2000 28 17 Mats Sundin 73 73
2008 36 20 Mats Sundin 74 78

Consecutive best scorer on own team:

Spoiler

Consecutive best scorer on own team: Gretzky 13, Iginla 11, Hawerchuk 11, Dionne 10, Ovechkin 10, Kopitar 10 (including 2019-20), Gordie 9 ( 9 all-time), Bathgate 8 (8 all-time), Sundin 8, Federko 8, Sittler 8

 

[scott clam]

Was Sundin some world beater in the playoffs? not to any degree that compares to their careers.

Thornton's playoffs are usually a weak point when comparing him to other hall of famers, but Sundin's best playoffs are 13 points in 11 games and 16 points in 17 games. And he never went to the finals in his career despite the leafs spending a lot of money before the cap era to stack them. He was good but he wasn't exactly a Conn Smythe winning playoff hero. Conn Smythe winning playoff heroes have a stronger case vs Thornton. Sundin doesn't and isn't.

Neither player was a Selke winner either, despite neither being what I could call a liability.

Sundin aside from his 2nd in goals year and 10th in assists year did what exactly to merit being compared to Thornton? He was never top 10 in points(Thornton was 6 times and was top 5 four of those 6 times). Nobody ever looked at Sundin and said "this man has an argument for being the best player in the world right now". Thornton did that a few times.

Thornton was for 4 years one of the top players in the league. Art Ross, hart, several Hart nominations, turned average teammates into world beaters as evidenced by their results away from him. Regularly outscored his teammates by 30-40 points. Spent a lot of his prime with the best offensive defensemen available on the sharks being 30-40 point guys Matt Carle, Tom Preising, Craig Rivet. People forget that Dan Boyle arrives as Thornton was exiting his prime at age 30 despite still playing at a high level for years.

Despite all that, Thornton is on a short list of highest scoring players of all time despite the low scoring era he played in. 7th all time in assists. Everyone on the point list above him other than Howe played a significant portion of their careers in the high flying offense era. If he started his career in 1980, its entirely likely his end points would be around 1900 given his long consistency. And its entirely likely only Gretzky would be above him in assist totals. 1089 assists and 7th all time. Francis is 2nd to Gretzky with 1249. Thornton would have easily been 2nd in assists if he started in 1980. He missed a year smack in the middle of his prime to lockout. He followed that lockout year with back to back 90+ assist seasons. Only 3 players have done that. Gretzky and Lemieux being the other 2 .

Sundin isn't in the same category. He is significantly below despite being nearly as consistent.

That may true, but Sundin also doesn't have any infamous collapses like Thornton does. Thornton is something like -30 in the playoffs, despite playing on "contending" teams for many years, and his points per game is well below his regular season average.

 

[VanIslander]

Sundin had far better talent to play with in his international tourneys than in Toronto.

The NHL opposition just double-checked the Leaf, and the team wilted, even when he made a quick pass away, others couldn't convert.

He was on an island more than Hawerchuk was in Winnipeg. Sad.

Shame on the franchises. (Like DeShaun Watson this season at QB for the NFL's Houston Texans. His QBR by PFF is pretty good, but he has little help on his team.)

 

[Jahara]

Good points.
Another example might be Markus Näslund, who internationally (except for the World Junior championship playing with Peter Forsberg and a young Niklas Sundström) never reached Sundin's heights. I think at least 9 out of 10 Swedes would say Sundin was the far superior player.

I don't remember every tournament the Sedins played. They dominated hugely during a couple of World Championships, where many of the best players were missing due to playing Stanley Cup. Otherwise I don't remember them being nearly as good as Sundin in best-on-best tournaments.

To me, Sundin is probably the most "contradictory" player, just because his time in TOR didn't statistically correlate to his play in other environments. (Note also my post yesterday about him. For 17 straight seasons, he was top-2 in goals and points within the NHL team he played for. 11 times he was leading goal scorer, and 13 times leading points scorer, often by large margins. Usually good +/- too, compared to teammates.)

Something that might be forgotten is that Sundin also did very well as a winger, perhaps even better (at least offensively?).

Näslund only really performed good during the World Championship in 1999. It is a bit peculiar that Näslund turned down the 2006 Olympics but only missed one single game during the 2005/06 regular season.

But I think Näslund was held as a better player than Sundin during his peak years in the first half of the 00's. Otherwise Sundin was better and had a better career overall.

The Sedin brothers only dominated the World Championship in 2013 but otherwise they were average like in 2005, quite poor like in 2001 or still in their junior years like 1999 and 2000. It was just a shame they in their peak years was paired with Weinhandl in the 2010 Olympics and could perform.

 

[67 others]

That may true, but Sundin also doesn't have any infamous collapses like Thornton does. Thornton is something like -30 in the playoffs, despite playing on "contending" teams for many years, and his points per game is well below his regular season average.

Nor relevant. Sundin was not a notable enough playoff performer for it to make a difference relative to Thornton's playoffs. Sundin never went to the finals in an era when his team spent almost as much as New York to constantly stack the team with no cap.

Thornton obliterates him career wise and has arguments for being the 2nd greatest playmaker of all time and one of the greatest point scorers of all time.

Sundin's greatest strength is his consistency but never did people say " this is one of the top 10 players in the world". But Thornton was just as consistent while having a much higher peak.

 

[scott clam]

Nor relevant. Sundin was not a notable enough playoff performer for it to make a difference relative to Thornton's playoffs. Sundin never went to the finals in an era when his team spent almost as much as New York to constantly stack the team with no cap.

Thornton obliterates him career wise and has arguments for being the 2nd greatest playmaker of all time and one of the greatest point scorers of all time.

Sundin's greatest strength is his consistency but never did people say " this is one of the top 10 players in the world". But Thornton was just as consistent while having a much higher peak.

Leafs spent a lot of money signing aging free agents, but could never build a truly great team the way they squandered their prospects/draft picks. Thornton does have a better regular season career, but outside of a Hart-Ross season I don't think there's that big of a difference between best 5 or best 10 seasons.

I would argue that Thornton is much closer to Sundin than he is Malkin anyhow...

 

[scott clam]

Also while Sundin may have a limited playoff resume, his international one is legendary, and proof of his clutchness.

 

[67 others]

Leafs spent a lot of money signing aging free agents, but could never build a truly great team the way they squandered their prospects/draft picks. Thornton does have a better regular season career, but outside of a Hart-Ross season I don't think there's that big of a difference between best 5 or best 10 seasons.

I would argue that Thornton is much closer to Sundin than he is Malkin anyhow...

Sundin was never ever in the conversation for "best player of the year". Thornton was multiple times outside of his Hart and Art Ross year.
On strength of his amazing consistency and his incredible numbers in a tough to score era.

Sundin's numbers were significantly less. Thornton's best 5 seasons are better than Sundin's single best season. That's significant.

Malkin has 2 seasons better than anything Jumbo joe did, although Jumbo's Hart season is close to Malkin's 2nd best season. That aside, Malkin is so injury prone that his consistency suffers drastically. His legacy will suffer a bit due to that. its offset by the fact that anyone would take a duo of Malkin and Kunitz over Sundin and Thornton in the playoffs because Malkin is so good there. His playoffs are otherworldly good. So you may have a point. But Thornton is still far and away better than anyone else that was listed as comparison other than Malkin. Sundin is not in Thornton's level. He's a visible tier below.

Also while Sundin may have a limited playoff resume, his international one is legendary, and proof of his clutchness.

To each his own then. But Sundin isn't ever going to be in the conversation for top 120 players of all time. He doesn't even get consideration. On most recent lists I have seen, Thornton squeezed into the 80's or 90's. If you want him to get consideration and see lots of knowledgeable debate about it you should join the next top 100 project in this section.

Sundin was bounced in the first or 2nd round of the playoffs 8 out of the 10 years he made the playoffs and the 2 years he went to the conference finals, he had 16 points in 17 games and 7 points in 8 games. You can point to his small sample sizes elsewhere in weak World cups if you like but those do not really move the needle for me.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sundin was never ever in the conversation for "best player of the year". Thornton was multiple times outside of his Hart and Art Ross year.
On strength of his amazing consistency and his incredible numbers in a tough to score era.

Sundin's numbers were significantly less. Thornton's best 5 seasons are better than Sundin's single best season. That's significant.

Malkin has 2 seasons better than anything Jumbo joe did, although Jumbo's Hart season is close to Malkin's 2nd best season. That aside, Malkin is so injury prone that his consistency suffers drastically. His legacy will suffer a bit due to that. its offset by the fact that anyone would take a duo of Malkin and Kunitz over Sundin and Thornton in the playoffs because Malkin is so good there. His playoffs are otherworldly good. So you may have a point. But Thornton is still far and away better than anyone else that was listed as comparison other than Malkin. Sundin is not in Thornton's level. He's a visible tier below.


To each his own then. But Sundin isn't ever going to be in the conversation for top 120 players of all time. He doesn't even get consideration. On most recent lists I have seen, Thornton squeezed into the 80's or 90's. If you want him to get consideration and see lots of knowledgeable debate about it you should join the next top 100 project in this section.

Sundin was bounced in the first or 2nd round of the playoffs 8 out of the 10 years he made the playoffs and the 2 years he went to the conference finals, he had 16 points in 17 games and 7 points in 8 games. You can point to his small sample sizes elsewhere in weak World cups if you like but those do not really move the needle for me.

Malkin has played more games and won more hardware than Forsberg so I don’t see how it’ll effect his legacy as it doesn’t seem to effect Foppa.

I agree with your assessment that Sundin is nowhere close to Malkin or Thornton.

 

[GlitchMarner]

For whatever reason, Thornton "feels" closer to guys like Sundin/Modano/Perreault/Hawerchuk etc than he does to the likes of Forsberg/Sakic/Yzerman/Dionne. However, statistically, he's probably closer to the latter group.

I wouldn't go so far as to put him a tier above Sundin, but he's definitely above. I'd probably slot him half a tier above Sundin and Modano and half a tier below Sakic and Yzerman. Similar range to a guy like Fedorov.

Goals matter, too. I would be interested in seeing Thornton's distribution of primary versus secondary points. Obviously he's a phenomenal playmaker, but when you have that many assists, quite a few are bound to be secondaries. Sundin scored between 30 and 40 goals consistently. Thornton's been more of a ~20 goal scorer for years.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Sundin's numbers were significantly less. Thornton's best 5 seasons are better than Sundin's single best season. That's significant.

Based on what metric? I'd say his best three seasons ('03, '06, '07) are better, which is what puts him ahead for me.

 

[67 others]

Malkin has played more games and won more hardware than Forsberg so I don’t see how it’ll effect his legacy as it doesn’t seem to effect Foppa.

I agree with your assessment that Sundin is nowhere close to Malkin or Thornton.

It does affect Foppa. Most people universally think Foppa with his game breaking talent could have been in the top 20 all time if he remained healthy. instead he tends to hover around the mid 50's. Come to think of it, so does Malkin.

 

[67 others]

For whatever reason, Thornton "feels" closer to guys like Sundin/Modano/Perreault/Hawerchuk etc than he does to the likes of Forsberg/Sakic/Yzerman/Dionne. However, statistically, he's probably closer to the latter group.

I wouldn't go so far as to put him a tier above Sundin, but he's definitely above. I'd probably slot him half a tier above Sundin and Modano and half a tier below Sakic and Yzerman. Similar range to a guy like Fedorov.

Goals matter, too. I would be interested in seeing Thornton's distribution of primary versus secondary points. Obviously he's a phenomenal playmaker, but when you have that many assists, quite a few are bound to be secondaries. Sundin scored between 30 and 40 goals consistently. Thornton's been more of a ~20 goal scorer for years.

I'd say there is another tier between those types. The Fedorov's, Lindros', Brett Hull's, Thornton's, Bentley's, Selanne's are quite clearly above the Mike Modano's, Sundin's and Roenicks in my estimation.

Regarding assists. I would have to look into it in depth, but his 2005-2006 season alone was one of the highest shares of primary assists of all time. He had more primary assists than anyone else in the league had assists period. He is also ranked 4th all time on primary assists on Game winning goals.

He is the only guy not named Gretzky or Lemieux to have back to back 90 assist seasons. And he started his career in the dead puck era, straight through this modern low scoring era, missing a year of his prime to the lockouts and another half year missed during seasons he was still putting up great numbers.

Ron Francis is currently #2 in all time assists with 1249. Thornton is 7th with 1089. Its not rocket science to assume if he played in the high flying 80's he would be the undisputed #2 all time in assists maybe #3 assuming we give Jagr the same benefit, although jagr did enjoy his youth years in the high scoring era with Lemieux.

However you slice it, trying to add more value to goals and less value to assists, Sundin was never the man in the league. He was merely very good.

 

[67 others]

Based on what metric? I'd say his best three seasons ('03, '06, '07) are better, which is what puts him ahead for me.

I agree on those 3 seasons, and I would argue for his 2007-08 year. 3rd consecutive season winning the assist title. 5th overall in scoring with 96 points when his next closest scoring teammates were Michalek with 24 goals and 55 points. Craig Rivet was the teams premier offensive defenseman that year because he was the right hand shot and he had 35 points lol. Thornton actually lead the sharks in goals that year with 29. Michalek's 24 was the teams 2nd best. These were the years Thornton could play with a bowl of potato salad and a fire hydrant as a linemate and make goals happen. He was 2nd team all star as best center in the league behind Malkin and was in the conversation for the Hart trophy again.

Thornton won the assist title that year with a 23 goal 37 point RW and 24 goal, 55 point LW linemates. And before everyone goes "but Marleau on the PP!". Marleau had 19 goals and 48 points that year.

Thornton had a phenomenal season there that flew under the radar. And he was such a team player that he signed a contract extension for Chris Drury, Scott Gomez money that year. When he was still smack dab in the middle of his prime. People nostalgically assume the sharks were some powerhouse team in Thornton's prime. in reality, he personally moved the needle on those weaker teams. his teams WERE powerful teams later in his career when he was past his prime, but the two things did not happen at the same time.


The other season that stands out? Strangely, 2015-16 at age 36-37. He came out of nowhere to be 4th overall in scoring. He was again in the Hart conversation. he was again ranked 2nd best center in the league as 2nd team all star. He actually placed 5th for the Selke that year because his two way play was stellar. And quite frankly he played really well for an old man in the playoffs, with 21 points in 24 games, losing in 6 to the Penguins in the finals.

If you want to make an argument for one of Sundin's seasons over those 2 years ill listen to it.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I agree on those 3 seasons, and I would argue for his 2007-08 year. 3rd consecutive season winning the assist title. 5th overall in scoring with 96 points when his next closest scoring teammates were Michalek with 24 goals and 55 points. Craig Rivet was the teams premier offensive defenseman that year because he was the right hand shot and he had 35 points lol. Thornton actually lead the sharks in goals that year with 29. Michalek's 24 was the teams 2nd best. These were the years Thornton could play with a bowl of potato salad and a fire hydrant as a linemate and make goals happen. He was 2nd team all star as best center in the league behind Malkin and was in the conversation for the Hart trophy again.

Thornton won the assist title that year with a 23 goal 37 point RW and 24 goal, 55 point LW linemates. And before everyone goes "but Marleau on the PP!". Marleau had 19 goals and 48 points that year.

Thornton had a phenomenal season there that flew under the radar. And he was such a team player that he signed a contract extension for Chris Drury, Scott Gomez money that year. When he was still smack dab in the middle of his prime. People nostalgically assume the sharks were some powerhouse team in Thornton's prime. in reality, he personally moved the needle on those weaker teams. his teams WERE powerful teams later in his career when he was past his prime, but the two things did not happen at the same time.


The other season that stands out? Strangely, 2015-16 at age 36-37. He came out of nowhere to be 4th overall in scoring. He was again in the Hart conversation. he was again ranked 2nd best center in the league as 2nd team all star. He actually placed 5th for the Selke that year because his two way play was stellar. And quite frankly he played really well for an old man in the playoffs, with 21 points in 24 games, losing in 6 to the Penguins in the finals.

If you want to make an argument for one of Sundin's seasons over those 2 years ill listen to it.

I think arguing between Thornton's '16 and '08 seasons and Sundin's '97 and '02 seasons is pretty much splitting hairs.

In 1997 Sundin was seventh in NHL scoring and +6 on a team with one of the worst goal differentials in the League. He did spend time playing with Gilmour, who had 60 points for the team before being traded. The third-highest scorer on that team was Clark, who almost hit 50 points. The highest-scoring defenseman (Murphy) had 39 points. Sundin had eight GWGs, Clark had six and no one else had more than three. If his team had managed to sneak into the playoffs that year, he would have gotten much better Hart support than he did.

In '02 Sundin was tied for second in goals (with 41) and was fourth in points in the NHL. He often centered plugs like Renberg and Hoglund. He had nine GWGs and was a second team All-Star.


It's probably a bit below these two seasons, but there is also Sundin's best season with Quebec.

In '93 Sundin scored 47 goals and 114 points. Granted, it was a very high-scoring season and he placed 11th in the scoring race. But he outscored Joe Sakic (who was on the same team) by nine points and was second on the team in plus/minus with a plus 21 rating (Sakic was -3). He had nine game-winners and played a major role in turning the Nordiques from a bottom-feeder into a competitive team. Other than Sundin and Sakic, no forward on that team had 80 points. Steve Duchesne was a PPG player with 82 points in 82 games.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Goals matter, too. I would be interested in seeing Thornton's distribution of primary versus secondary points. Obviously he's a phenomenal playmaker, but when you have that many assists, quite a few are bound to be secondaries. Sundin scored between 30 and 40 goals consistently. Thornton's been more of a ~20 goal scorer for years.

I'd have to double-check but from what I recall, Thornton, especially at his peak, had a surprisingly low percentage of secondary assists for someone who generated so much of his offense through playmaking.

 

[67 others]

I think arguing between Thornton's '16 and '08 seasons and Sundin's '97 and '02 seasons is pretty much splitting hairs.

In 1997 Sundin was seventh in NHL scoring and +6 on a team with one of the worst goal differentials in the League. He did spend time playing with Gilmour, who had 60 points for the team before being traded. The third-highest scorer on that team was Clark, who almost hit 50 points. The highest-scoring defenseman (Murphy) had 39 points. Sundin had eight GWGs, Clark had six and no one else had more than three. If his team had managed to sneak into the playoffs that year, he would have gotten much better Hart support than he did.

In '02 Sundin was tied for second in goals (with 41) and was fourth in points in the NHL. He often centered plugs like Renberg and Hoglund. He had nine GWGs and was a second team All-Star.


It's probably a bit below these two seasons, but there is also Sundin's best season with Quebec.

In '93 Sundin scored 47 goals and 114 points. Granted, it was a very high-scoring season and he placed 11th in the scoring race. But he outscored Joe Sakic (who was on the same team) by nine points and was second on the team in plus/minus with a plus 21 rating (Sakic was -3). He had nine game-winners and played a major role in turning the Nordiques from a bottom-feeder into a competitive team. Other than Sundin and Sakic, no forward on that team had 80 points. Steve Duchesne was a PPG player with 82 points in 82 games.

Both those years were great. no dispute. I'd even say they have a good case for beating Thornton's 2016 year. But not his 07-08 year. that year was still otherworld level, but caught less attention because his numbers dipped from the previous 2 Hart level years. If we are going to bring up +/-, Thornton was +18 that year. Marleau was -19 and Vlasic was -12. The people who shared a lot of icetime with Thornton saw the ice tilted into the offensive zone more often than not.

Either way, the team on paper had no business being 2nd overall in the league. Taking Thornton out of the equation, a 23 goal 55 point Michelek, 19 goal, 48 point Marleau were the only real contributors. Everyone else on the team had 40 and under and I think anyone would take Larry Murphy on the PP over Craig Rivet, a career 15-30 point guy who got the spot because they had no right hand shots on the PP. Its goddamn amazing to see Thornton take the assist title on a season like that while personally willing the team into 2nd overall. Ryan Clowe was brought up to fill the "enforcer" role because people had been taking liberties with Thornton and somehow Thornton coached and tutored him into becoming a very good grinder in the playoffs. He had a gift for helping other players discover strengths and capabilities they did not know they had. A lot of people forget Pavelski was a 7th round throwaway pick who personally gave Thornton a ton of credit for molding him into the player he became.

In 97 like you said, didn't sneak into the playoffs. Gilmour and Murphy were proven great players. The team just didn't connect right I guess. In the end he was still ranked 6th best center in the league that year by voters.
All 3 of the years you posted, I agree are close and I can see an argument for potentially equaling or slightly edging Thornton's 2016 year(playoffs aside), but not Thornton's 07-08 year.

 

[plusandminus]

I'd have to double-check but from what I recall, Thornton, especially at his peak, had a surprisingly low percentage of secondary assists for someone who generated so much of his offense through playmaking.

I think guys like Gretzky, Thornton, Forsberg... usually have a large percentage of primary assists. That was what I saw when I studied this some years ago. I think it's natural and logical rather than surprising. Those great assist guys get their many assists by being great at setting teammates up for scoring chances.

 

[plusandminus]

...Thornton...

Don't forget international play, where Sundin excelled while I think Thornton only had one great international tournament (I may be wrong). During international tournaments, all games matters, similar to the NHL playoffs. These tournaments matters a lot for the players.

 

[67 others]

I'd have to double-check but from what I recall, Thornton, especially at his peak, had a surprisingly low percentage of secondary assists for someone who generated so much of his offense through playmaking.

The only year I checked was his Hart year so far. It was ridiculous. He had more primary assists than the 2nd place had total assists. That's really all I need to look at to know he was one of the greatest playmakers of all time.

Overall, Thornton if he had started playing in 1980, likely would be behind only Gretzky for total all time assists. Maybe Jagr and Howe if the same standard applied. But either way his totals for playing in such a low scoring era and missing a year of prime to lockout and a half year of his still productive early 30's to a lockout are eye popping.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I think guys like Gretzky, Thornton, Forsberg... usually have a large percentage of primary assists. That was what I saw when I studied this some years ago. I think it's natural and logical rather than surprising. Those great assist guys get their many assists by being great at setting teammates up for scoring chances.

You're right. I first looked into primary vs secondary assists a while ago - probably at least a decade ago - and, over the span of a few seasons*, there was surprisingly little variation in secondary assists as a percentage of total assists among star players.

Defensemen, as a whole, were much more likely to record secondary assists than forwards. And among forwards, generally it was less talented and/or more defense-oriented ones who were more likely to pick up secondary assists. All this is pretty obvious, I think, from watching and thinking about the sport.

I hate to bring up Crosby vs Ovechkin, but over the course of their careers, there's virtually no difference between who gets more secondary assists as a percentage of total assists. I think the difference between them is less than one-tenth of a percent, and I can't remember who was (slightly) more reliant on secondaries. (Of course, more of Crosby's total points come from secondary assists, because he gets more assists in total).

(*There can be significant variation over the course of a single season though - which is consistent with some of the correlational studies I did last year which shows that secondary assists were less predictable, year to year, than either goals or primary assists).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It's probably a bit below these two seasons, but there is also Sundin's best season with Quebec.

In '93 Sundin scored 47 goals and 114 points. Granted, it was a very high-scoring season and he placed 11th in the scoring race. But he outscored Joe Sakic (who was on the same team) by nine points and was second on the team in plus/minus with a plus 21 rating (Sakic was -3). He had nine game-winners and played a major role in turning the Nordiques from a bottom-feeder into a competitive team. Other than Sundin and Sakic, no forward on that team had 80 points. Steve Duchesne was a PPG player with 82 points in 82 games.

i’d say putting it like this is a little misleading.

he scored more than half his pts on a pp with 100 pt sakic, pt/game duchesne QBing, pt/game owen nolan (40 goal pace, sandwiched between top 10 in goals seasons), and pt/game mike ricci.

sundin had an excellent year, including the mother of hot streaks, and yes that was the year he outscored sakic, but he certainly had great help.

from the game logs the most common lines seemed to be

hough sakic kovalenko

cavallini/kamensky sundin nolan

rucinsky ricci young

kamensky only played the last 30-odd games but scored at significantly higher than a pt/game pace. young scored 30 goals. kovalenko almost hit 30/70, and rucinsky chipped in 20/50.

that team made a jump not only because sundin made a jump but also because in one summer they added an elite puck mover in duchesne, ricci, scott young, and three good rookies in kovalenko, rucinsky, and for half the year kamensky.

 

[scott clam]

For whatever reason, Thornton "feels" closer to guys like Sundin/Modano/Perreault/Hawerchuk etc than he does to the likes of Forsberg/Sakic/Yzerman/Dionne. However, statistically, he's probably closer to the latter group.

I wouldn't go so far as to put him a tier above Sundin, but he's definitely above. I'd probably slot him half a tier above Sundin and Modano and half a tier below Sakic and Yzerman. Similar range to a guy like Fedorov.

Goals matter, too. I would be interested in seeing Thornton's distribution of primary versus secondary points. Obviously he's a phenomenal playmaker, but when you have that many assists, quite a few are bound to be secondaries. Sundin scored between 30 and 40 goals consistently. Thornton's been more of a ~20 goal scorer for years.

I'd say Thornton is most comparable to Dionne. He might even be the "Marcel Dionne" of his era.

 

[67 others]

I'd say Thornton is most comparable to Dionne. He might even be the "Marcel Dionne" of his era.

That's fair. Marcel Dionne tends to get ranked in the 60's of all time top 100 players lists despite his playoff flaws. Thornton wound up around 91.

The top 200 project is starting soon. You may want to weigh in there since Sundin is certain to make it in to that list. Probably within the 160 to 200 range.

 

[Stephen]

That's fair. Marcel Dionne tends to get ranked in the 60's of all time top 100 players lists despite his playoff flaws. Thornton wound up around 91.

The top 200 project is starting soon. You may want to weigh in there since Sundin is certain to make it in to that list. Probably within the 160 to 200 range.

The 160th to 200th range doesn't seem proportionately correct for the 24th highest goal scoring forward and 28th highest point scoring player in the history of the game who was also the face of a franchise for a decade and a half and a significant international player.

Even if we started him off as the 28th best player in the game based on his career point totals and I spotted you an additional 60 forwards, 40 defensemen and 25 goalies to put ahead of him, no questions asked, that still doesn't get us to 160th.