How good was Mats Sundin?

[MarkusNaslund19]

Sundin was fantastic. I think he was good enough to be the top line center on a cup winner if he had the requisite teammates to fulfill their roles.

The current player who most reminds me of him (despite shooting left handed) is Anze Kopitar.

 

[Stephen]

That's what I was going to say.

Go back and look at the Maple Leafs' line-up from 1998 to 2004 when they were regularly having 100 point-ish seasons, and then ask yourself where they would have been without Sundin leading on and off the ice. A strong roster that was not.

Now, if the Nords had been smarter, they'd have traded Sundin not for Wendel Clark but for Claude Lemieux plus another good top player.

It's this constant under-appreciation of Sundin by Maple Leafs' people that continually baffles me. I'm not even a Sundin fan per se, but this skewed perception of him drives me nuts.

Also, considering what happened to the Leafs between the Mats Sundin and Auston Matthews eras, it's funny that people characterize that era as a barren dark age where Sundin was trapped on an island of futility or something.

Sundin wasn't the best player of his era. He didn't singlehandedly will a cup to Toronto, didn't ride on someone else's coattails en route to a cup, didn't win a scoring title, etc, but he was extremely productive, his teams were contenders for many years.

 

[authentic]

Sundin was fantastic. I think he was good enough to be the top line center on a cup winner if he had the requisite teammates to fulfill their roles.

The current player who most reminds me of him (despite shooting left handed) is Anze Kopitar.

I've had the pleasure of watching both live and I think they are very similar, other than Kopitar being a much better defensive player and Sundin being a much better goal scorer. Both held the puck like they owned it with their massive frames and were among the most skilled large players of their time. I think Kopitar at his best was a little better though, similar to Matthews and Marner now. Not a huge difference though, but Sundin's consistency and ability to stay healthy over his career was amazing especially since he was leaned on so heavily in Toronto.

 

[vaspa]

One of the all time greats of international hockey, too. Olympic gold, 3 IIHF world championships and 7 total medals. Between ages 21 and 35 he scored 18+20=38 points in 33 games at best on best tournaments (Canada Cup, World Cups of Hockey, Olympics). All Star in Canada Cup -91, World Cup -96 and -02 Olympics and captained the Gold medal team in -06 Olympics.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Sundin was fantastic. I think he was good enough to be the top line center on a cup winner if he had the requisite teammates to fulfill their roles.

Oh, for sure. It would have been interesting to see how Mats Sundin on defending-champion Anaheim (the deal he is rumored to have turned down was for Bobby Ryan) would have played out, since he would have been a #1 center on a deep offensive and defensive team.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Pretty comfortable with the scenario that the Colorado Nordiques would have done just fine and won their fair share of Stanley Cups with Mats Sundin instead of Claude Lemieux.

The notion that a player getting traded off a roster that goes onto win success is somehow to blame? That truly belongs buried deep on a random message board.

put aside the saltiness for a sec and think about what we’re discussing, which is whether sundin belongs in the echelon of guys like teeder kennedy on an all time leafs list.

in a comparable situation, kennedy found himself on a powerhouse team with two other hall of fame centers. he went from being the top scorer to the third leading scorer. but he was indispensable and so they kept him instead of moving him out and keeping bodnar as their third c.

we have every reason to believe that kennedy was a rich man’s toews to that leafs dynasty. meanwhile quebec elected to keep sakic, forsberg, and ricci out of their center group and reallocate resources elsewhere in the lineup, namely experience and grit on the wing and a shutdown defenceman.

would colorado have been just fine with sundin on the wing and no claude lemieux, and garth butcher’s corpse? i doubt it but honestly it doesn’t really matter for this discussion. could quebec have gotten a better deal for sundin? maybe but that’s just deflecting. what matters here is sundin wasn’t the one they kept when forsberg came in, sakic was. and no sane person would make a different decision.

now was sundin unlucky to have been on a team with a center as good as sakic ahead of him and a prospect as valuable as lindros after him, thus making him expendable? sure. but without them we’re still crying about how sundin doesn’t have any cups because he didn’t have the teammates that teeder kennedy did, only it’s cupless avalanche sundin instead of toronto.

Sundin wasn't the best player of his era. He didn't singlehandedly will a cup to Toronto, didn't ride on someone else's coattails en route to a cup, didn't win a scoring title, etc, but he was extremely productive, his teams were contenders for many years.

agreed. everyone agrees with this.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Oh, for sure. It would have been interesting to see how Mats Sundin on defending-champion Anaheim (the deal he is rumored to have turned down was for Bobby Ryan) would have played out, since he would have been a #1 center on a deep offensive and defensive team.

wouldn’t he have been the #2 behind getzlaf?

on a multiyear deal, i could see sundin maybe helping the ducks over the hump in 09, but that 08 team was doomed. niedermayer coming back midyear and not niedermayer, ancient doug weight replacing andy mcdonald, bertuzzi and mathieu schneider as your cagey vets...

but 09 of course was sundin’s ufa —> vancouver year.

 

[Stephen]

put aside the saltiness for a sec and think about what we’re discussing, which is whether sundin belongs in the echelon of guys like teeder kennedy on an all time leafs list...

Considering the fact that Sundin and Kennedy both appear on all-time Leafs lists together in various permutations, it seems like a funny exercise to try to discredit one by talking about Quebec, Mike Ricci, Eric Lindros, Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i thought we were talking about discrediting kennedy by talking about broda, apps, et al? and i was pointing out the logical parallel argument viz sundin?

anyway,

Sundin wasn't the best player of his era. He didn't singlehandedly will a cup to Toronto, didn't ride on someone else's coattails en route to a cup, didn't win a scoring title, etc, but he was extremely productive, his teams were contenders for many years.

agreed. everyone agrees with this.

enjoy your sundin thread

 

[quoipourquoi]

wouldn’t he have been the #2 behind getzlaf?

on a multiyear deal, i could see sundin maybe helping the ducks over the hump in 09, but that 08 team was doomed. niedermayer coming back midyear and not niedermayer, ancient doug weight replacing andy mcdonald, bertuzzi and mathieu schneider as your cagey vets...

but 09 of course was sundin’s ufa —> vancouver year.

Being able to have Sundin center Kunitz/Selanne instead of Doug Weight might have been enough to keep the team from being a lost cause.

While Getzlaf was breaking out, at that point, Sundin was likely still seen as the better player (certainly more proven). More than that, the Getzlaf/Perry line tended to get less ice while Getzlaf individually received extra from special teams.

Kunitz-Sundin-Selanne
Bertuzzi-Getzlaf-Perry
Moen-Pahlsson-Niedermayer
May-Marchant-Parros
(Carter, Weight)

The rumor was that if they made the deal, they would need to move Schneider for cap space, so they’d likely have the same defense as 2007. So a pretty similar team as the year before - Todd Bertuzzi instead of Shawn Thornton or Dustin Penner; Mats Sundin instead of Andy McDonald.

Losing Bobby Ryan would have been terrible long term, but short-term, trying to win without a capable center for Kunitz/Selanne probably wasted their last two years of that defense.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Being able to have Sundin center Kunitz/Selanne instead of Doug Weight might have been enough to keep the team from being a lost cause.

While Getzlaf was breaking out, at that point, Sundin was likely still seen as the better player (certainly more proven). More than that, the Getzlaf/Perry line tended to get less ice while Getzlaf individually received extra from special teams.

Kunitz-Sundin-Selanne
Bertuzzi-Getzlaf-Perry
Moen-Pahlsson-Niedermayer
May-Marchant-Parros
(Carter, Weight)

The rumor was that if they made the deal, they would need to move Schneider for cap space, so they’d likely have the same defense as 2007. So a pretty similar team as the year before - Todd Bertuzzi instead of Shawn Thornton or Dustin Penner; Mats Sundin instead of Andy McDonald.

Losing Bobby Ryan would have been terrible long term, but short-term, trying to win without a capable center for Kunitz/Selanne probably wasted their last two years of that defense.

I wonder how many teams in history had a better duo of RHS centers than Sundin and Getzlaf. Looks like a rare situation.

 

[Stephen]

I wonder how many teams in history had a better duo of RHS centers than Sundin and Getzlaf. Looks like a rare situation.

On paper, the Leafs started the 2005-06 season with Sundin, Lindros and Allison all as big RHS centers. Too bad 2/3 were no longer in their primes by that point.

 

[BenchBrawl]

On paper, the Leafs started the 2005-06 season with Sundin, Lindros and Allison all as big RHS centers. Too bad 2/3 were no longer in their primes by that point.

Very good indeed, but obviously only on paper.

Would be interesting to dig up other such combinations throughout history.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

4/5 centers on the 93 habs: carbo, lebeau, dipietro, and savard. only muller shot left

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Oh, for sure. It would have been interesting to see how Mats Sundin on defending-champion Anaheim (the deal he is rumored to have turned down was for Bobby Ryan) would have played out, since he would have been a #1 center on a deep offensive and defensive team.

I never heard that rumour. That was the 2007 offseason?

 

[quoipourquoi]

I never heard that rumour. That was the 2007 offseason?

February 2008. A lot of people were really upset that Sundin wouldn’t waive his no-trade clause when the Leafs had a lot of interested parties. Scott Burnside of ESPN even suggested that Toronto strip Sundin of his captaincy.

It was pretty ugly. And undeserved, in my opinion. There were quite a few people who took Sundin’s side; he was presented the Messier Award that season.

The truest test of leadership comes during periods of adversity. When presented with difficult times during the season, Mats Sundin remained committed to his teammates.

 

[Fixxer]

I was too young but I imagine the expectations got out of hand at that moment.
He had almost doubled his production 2 years after and had that wonderful what.. 30 games point streak!

 

[Johnny Engine]

How did that card manage to get Sundin's height off by 3 inches from his usual listed height? Like, I get he's probably a shade shorter in real life, but 3 inches is the difference between the league average player and Eric Lindros.

 

[Pominville Knows]

How did that card manage to get Sundin's height off by 3 inches from his usual listed height? Like, I get he's probably a shade shorter in real life, but 3 inches is the difference between the league average player and Eric Lindros.

It is probably his draft stats remaining, or possibly from his rookie year.
But he's not 6-5 by any means. I would not be surprised if he'd upon closer review would miss 6-4 by a few hairs. 192 cm sounds good to me. But he did suffer from poor posture when i ran into him, so who knows.

 

[plusandminus]

When playing for Sweden, Sundin was the big star along with Peter Forsberg. Those two were considered a step above the other Swedish forwards/players. Please note, that Sundin is considered (at least) Forsberg's equal in that regard.
In international tournaments Sundin was as great as anyone. Among all the best players, he was voted into the tournament All Star Team in both Canada Cup 1991 and its successor World Cup in 1996.
He also made the All Star Team in the 2002 Olympics, where he also led the tournament in points, despite just playing 4 games. He was great in that tournament, and also was our best forward in the dreadful quarter final which we lost to Belarus.
Twice he was voted as best forward in the World Championship (1992 and 2003).
He also captained the Swedish team that won the 2006 Olympic gold medal, and assisted on the tournament winning goal.

Again, note the above accomplishments. Sundin was (at least) Forsberg's equal. (Other guys were considered steps behind. Those includes Alfredsson and Lidstrom. Renberg was even further behind.)

In the NHL, a 21 year old Sundin in his third season outscored 23 year old Joe Sakic (who would again outscore Sundin in the next season).
He then captained Toronto for many years and usually was their leading scorer, often leading in goals and assists.
In the playoffs, he continued to produce at about the same pace as in the regular season.

However, in the NHL Sundin always appeared a level behind Forsberg and didn't reach Forsberg's high scoring finishes or team success.
One thing used against him is that he had a season where he was outscored by teammate Mogilny.


So how do we summarize?
Great player able to step up in big games. A great and reliable leader.
Has proven he could captain and lead his teams to gold medals.
Didn't have great team success in the NHL, only had two top-ten scoring finishes, and was probably considered a step below the best players.

Speculation...
In my opinion he could as well have ended up winning Stanley Cup(s), as a captain, and scoring big goals on the way.
If swapping Sundin and Sakic, Sundin might have had stats and team success similar to Sakic, or possibly yet still be a step behind.
Might have had more success as a winger?

(By the way, Sundin was considered a betrayer when he as a teenager left Sweden for the NHL (at the time that was very uncommon), but quickly became forgiven.)

 

[scott clam]

It is probably his draft stats remaining, or possibly from his rookie year.
But he's not 6-5 by any means. I would not be surprised if he'd upon closer review would miss 6-4 by a few hairs. 192 cm sounds good to me. But he did suffer from poor posture when i ran into him, so who knows.

I've always wondered how tall these two were really/who was taller, but it's hard to tell

 

[Stephen]

How did that card manage to get Sundin's height off by 3 inches from his usual listed height? Like, I get he's probably a shade shorter in real life, but 3 inches is the difference between the league average player and Eric Lindros.

If you look at photos of Sundin and Lindros, Sundin looks like he's about the same size:

 

[scott clam]

If you look at photos of Sundin and Lindros, Sundin looks like he's about the same size:

Lindros's shoulders and shoulderpads make him look taller though...

 

[TheProspector]

Mats Sundin was a premier player in the NHL for every season but his last in Vancouver. Offensively, defensively, passing, shooting, and puck possession -- there are very few players that were as dominant and had no holes in their game. He even dropped the gloves. Maybe the most consistent player I've ever watched. He was basically the proto Sidney Crosby. Near perfect player.

 

[Retire91]

I have fond memories of watching Sundin on CBC he was one of my favorite players. You always knew when he was on the ice purely by his size, he was fairly tall but just a thick guy as well and he was one of those rare players with both size and also a ton of skill. He had a huge tool box and was a true superstar. He played with virtually no talented line-mates and carried the Leafs on his shoulders. He could take over a game when he was on and barrel through the defense to the net. I saw some comments on him not being physical. He wasn't physical as in throwing hits and being gritty but his size and strength allowed him to practically skate through the defense. He was an immensely enjoyable player to watch and made something happen literally every time he was on the ice. If he could have been surrounded by support and talent I have no doubt he would be in many more discussions.

I think to know the player you need to look more at his international performances when he got to play with some talent.

I also saw a couple of posts saying Sundin's teams weren't as void of talent as some are saying. I am trying to remember Sundin's line mates and I literally can't. That is how invisible they were. I am remembering Mogilny and Roberts now but they were pretty much in the last 3-4 years of their careers. I think some seasons Darcey Tucker was their second leading scorer.