How Do We Fix The Defense?

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Play Biega over MDZ.

Its highly unlikely that Pouliot is in the future plans of the Canucks after this season...Even though he has turnovers (some, of the spectacular variety) I still prefer his overall play over MDZ's.

The Canucks record with MDZ in the lineup is appalling.

 

[Bleach Clean]

He addresses the small sample size and goes into great detail on tanevs play. It's an excellent article and making the kind of statements you are making without reading the article is frankly foolish.

Most notably, he says that he thinks tanev is as good as ever but echoes a lot of people on here in thinking he's been playing hurt and wonders if he will ever be healthy enough to get the kind of value we would want in a trade.

Your interpretation is not the same as Mr. Canucklehead's own. "Thinks Tanev is as good as ever" is the opposite of "his play has declined and that he's not good anymore". I had commented on Mr. C's take, which I find to be reliable.

I do not often comment on source material that I have not reviewed. Of course I understand that I'm making a leap doing so. It's fair to call it foolish. That said, I think any article that is making a determination on Tanev's play in this short sample is apt to be wrong. Which makes it surprising that you would say that it's an excellent article given the limited data on Tanev?

A determination either way does not seem smart.

 

[ChilliBilly]

i posted this in the Tryamkin thread, and have other comments here, but:

The big issue with Tryamkin is, I assume, that he will only come back if he is guaranteed a spot. Next year we add Hughes and probably Juolevi onto the roster.

Tanev and Edler (I assume he will re-sign) are locks.
Hutton (RFA) Stecher Tryamkin Juolevi and Hughes will be fighting for 4 spots.

MDZ is UFA
Pouliot RFA
Biega is signed.

We constantly complain about our D, but we could have 10 D men fighting for 6 spots. I can't see re-signing MDZ if it looks like NT is coming back. If no Tryamkin, then Biega / Pouliot are 7 / 8.

This is all assuming none of Brisebois, Sautner, Eliot, Chatfield or McEneny makes a splash at training camp. Or our 1st round pick this year is a ready D man (doubtful). Or that Woo or Rathbone or someone else turns heads

Simply put, we have 2 points of interest. Is juolevi playing next year, and more importantly, is Tryamkin coming back.

With Boeser Alien and Horvat we have the nucleus for a good offense, and with Tanev, Edler, Juolevi, Stecher, Tryamkin and Hughes we have no issues on D.

Between Markstrom, Demko, Dipietro and Neilson, we should have the goal covered.

It really isn't that bad.

Edit - major error - I left Gudbranson out of the discussion on D. My bad. and it makes that much more complicated.

 

[Canucker]

i posted this in the Tryamkin thread, and have other comments here, but:

The big issue with Tryamkin is, I assume, that he will only come back if he is guaranteed a spot. Next year we add Hughes and probably Juolevi onto the roster.

Tanev and Edler (I assume he will re-sign) are locks.
Hutton (RFA) Stecher Tryamkin Juolevi and Hughes will be fighting for 4 spots.

MDZ is UFA
Pouliot RFA
Biega is signed.

We constantly complain about our D, but we could have 10 D men fighting for 6 spots. I can't see re-signing MDZ if it looks like NT is coming back. If no Tryamkin, then Biega / Pouliot are 7 / 8.

This is all assuming none of Brisebois, Sautner, Eliot, Chatfield or McEneny makes a splash at training camp. Or our 1st round pick this year is a ready D man (doubtful). Or that Woo or Rathbone or someone else turns heads

Simply put, we have 2 points of interest. Is juolevi playing next year, and more importantly, is Tryamkin coming back.

With Boeser Alien and Horvat we have the nucleus for a good offense, and with Tanev, Edler, Juolevi, Stecher, Tryamkin and Hughes we have no issues on D.

Between Markstrom, Demko, Dipietro and Neilson, we should have the goal covered.

It really isn't that bad.

It really isn’t that good either. There are a lot of question marks in there.

 

[Cancuks]

Del Zotto will be gone and I don't think Pouliot or Hutton will get qualified. I'm also certain
Benning will be backing up the Brinks truck for one of Gardiner or Karlsson. It'll be ugly either way.

 

[Melvin]

Your interpretation is not the same as Mr. Canucklehead's own. "Thinks Tanev is as good as ever" is the opposite of "his play has declined and that he's not good anymore". I had commented on Mr. C's take, which I find to be reliable.

I do not often comment on source material that I have not reviewed. Of course I understand that I'm making a leap doing so. It's fair to call it foolish. That said, I think any article that is making a determination on Tanev's play in this short sample is apt to be wrong. Which makes it surprising that you would say that it's an excellent article given the limited data on Tanev?

A determination either way does not seem smart.

I mean, you've put me in a difficult spot. I don't know how to break it all down for you when you haven't read it, and I don't know how much of it I'm allowed to quote since it's protected content.

Basically, his numbers have been declining steadily since 2015-16 and have taken a dramatic nose-dive this season. Even if you discredit the current season due to sample size, the trend is alarming. The other point is that he believes that Tanev has -- probably due to a combination of age and injuries -- has lost some foot-speed compared to 3-4 years ago. This is based on video that he posts as well as his "balooning failed exit rate."

Basically, even if Tanev is still an elite defender, the injuries have possibly caught up to him which has resulted in him skating slower and, moreover, he has very poor numbers due to the fact that the team is so bad and he spends so much time in his own zone. The problem is not so much that "he isn't good anymore," which the author never said, but that due to constant concerns around his health, concerns around his foot speed, and very poor numbers, he might not hold the value around the league that we would want him to hold. He also believes that swapping Hughes for Edler could be a massive help for him as he does not believe the Tanev-Edler pairing, in particular, is as effective as it used to be.

It's a really good article the combines a lot of granular statistical data as well as observational data and does not leap to any crazy conclusions. It also more or less lines up with the game reports we've read lately that Tanev hasn't been at his best and is possibly playing through (another) injury. He acknowledges that you can't read too much into a 28-game sample and says (paraphrase) "for my money, Tanev is as good defensively as ever."

 

[F A N]

I do not often comment on source material that I have not reviewed. Of course I understand that I'm making a leap doing so. It's fair to call it foolish. That said, I think any article that is making a determination on Tanev's play in this short sample is apt to be wrong. Which makes it surprising that you would say that it's an excellent article given the limited data on Tanev?

Why don't you pay for the content and then comment? It seems to me that you never pay for any draft guides but like to talk about consensus and you didn't pay to read the article but feel like commenting that "any article that is making a determination on Tanev's play in this short sample is apt to be wrong." You're making a determination that the article is apt to be wrong without actually reading the article. Good stuff as always.

 

[82Ninety42011]

First we need to let Del Zotto and Pouliot walk that's a given. Second we need to re-sign Edler to a 3 year deal as he's still one of our best D-men. Third we need Tanev to stay to partner with Hughes who should be ready next season. As Hughes will be joining us next season I don't think Juolevi really has a spot as Edler, Hutton and Hughes should be all starters ahead of him on the left side. As Juolevi needs ice time he starts in AHL I'd think. Our right side would be Tanev and Stecher and if we could convince Tryamkin to come back I'd trade Gudbranson. I'd keep Biega as the 7th and Juolevi as the first call up. The following 8 man unit would have some ability on all pairings to move the puck up ice and defensive responsibility. There is a certain someone that could be available for the top pairing right side but OP said not to include I believe.

Edler Stecher
Hughes Tanev
Hutton Tryamkin/Gudbranson
Juolevi Biega

 

[PG Canuck]

The time to trade Tanev was years ago. His value is only decreasing as months go by. We will never get he full value for him in the trade market, for the value he provides to this team. That is largely due to his injuries and lack of production.

I sure wouldn’t be paying big assets to get Tanev, and then have him miss 20+ games a year and playoff games.

Us getting Nylander or whoever fans wanted was the biggest pipe dream I’ve seen in a long while.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I mean, you've put me in a difficult spot. I don't know how to break it all down for you when you haven't read it, and I don't know how much of it I'm allowed to quote since it's protected content.

Basically, his numbers have been declining steadily since 2015-16 and have taken a dramatic nose-dive this season. Even if you discredit the current season due to sample size, the trend is alarming. The other point is that he believes that Tanev has -- probably due to a combination of age and injuries -- has lost some foot-speed compared to 3-4 years ago. This is based on video that he posts as well as his "balooning failed exit rate."

Ah, so HD discounts the current season while still making the point using a larger sample. In that case, no harm done.

Basically, even if Tanev is still an elite defender, the injuries have possibly caught up to him which has resulted in him skating slower and, moreover, he has very poor numbers due to the fact that the team is so bad and he spends so much time in his own zone. The problem is not so much that "he isn't good anymore," which the author never said, but that due to constant concerns around his health, concerns around his foot speed, and very poor numbers, he might not hold the value around the league that we would want him to hold. He also believes that swapping Hughes for Edler could be a massive help for him as he does not believe the Tanev-Edler pairing, in particular, is as effective as it used to be.

It's a really good article the combines a lot of granular statistical data as well as observational data and does not leap to any crazy conclusions. It also more or less lines up with the game reports we've read lately that Tanev hasn't been at his best and is possibly playing through (another) injury. He acknowledges that you can't read too much into a 28-game sample and says (paraphrase) "for my money, Tanev is as good defensively as ever."

Logically, that part in bold goes without saying. Although I am curious how Dayal ties observational and statistical data to where Tanev's value (perception by other GMs) may be impacted. How would he even know? Perhaps Tanev never really had that value to begin with? Perhaps he has been told the value by an insider, both then and now?

I am familiar with Dayal's work from CA. I know how he likes to frame case studies. Smart guy. My thrust here was to comment based on somebody else's conclusion. Not the best idea. I just needed to know he was using a larger sample, and he is. All good.

Just a general note: Many of the more astute bloggers seem to be moving to paywall sites. Makes sense. I suppose I'm just used to their content being readily available. Times are changing.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Del Zotto will be gone and I don't think Pouliot or Hutton will get qualified. I'm also certain
Benning will be backing up the Brinks truck for one of Gardiner or Karlsson. It'll be ugly either way.

Hutton will most certainly be qualified. He's playing top four minutes, on pace for 25-30 points, and he'll still be only 26 at season's end. The debacle of last year is firmly in the past now, IMO.

Del Zotto and Pouliot should both be gone. I get the feeling Edler will be as well; whether the Canucks are able to convince him to accept a trade at the deadline, or we just let him walk in free agency, I think Benning has telegraphed his intentions to part ways - just has he has telegraphed his intentions to retain Tanev going forward.

 

[THE Green Man]

Hutton will most certainly be qualified. He's playing top four minutes, on pace for 25-30 points, and he'll still be only 26 at season's end. The debacle of last year is firmly in the past now, IMO.

Del Zotto and Pouliot should both be gone. I get the feeling Edler will be as well; whether the Canucks are able to convince him to accept a trade at the deadline, or we just let him walk in free agency, I think Benning has telegraphed his intentions to part ways - just has he has telegraphed his intentions to retain Tanev going forward.

I wouldn't say it's a forgone conclusion on Edler now with OJ's injury. If OJ was able to play the whole year and get some NHL games in post deadline then possibly but I see a need for Edler here still as there aren't many great LHD options in free agency this year to replace him. A 2 year deal would be perfect with a full no trade clause to appease Edler. His contract would run out at the time of the expansion draft so we wouldn't have to protect him and for as much of a pain he is on the PP he still does good work at ES and PK.

Assuming Tryamkin finishes his contract in the KHL and isn't back until the 2020-2021 season, and barring no free agency moves, next year I'd be looking at this:

Edler-Stecher
Hughes-Tanev
Hutton-Gudbrandson
Biega
1st call up OJ

Ideally we would have Gudbrandson gone, Stecher dropped down to the 3rd pair and a UFA brought in on the right side but the likeliness of that happening I am not holding my breath.

 

[passive voice]

How much would Stralman get in free agency?

Anton Stralman would be a great edition to the 2011 Vancouver Canucks.

We've gotta trufflepig around for like....three?...potential guys like that, and hope one hits. Gotta hope Quinn can hold his head above water next year and become a top-pairing guy by like 2021. Gotta hope Tanev can play 70.

I'm sensing a theme.

 

[Hit the post]

Anton Stralman would be a great edition to the 2011 Vancouver Canucks.

We've gotta trufflepig around for like....three?...potential guys like that, and hope one hits. Gotta hope Quinn can hold his head above water next year and become a top-pairing guy by like 2021. Gotta hope Tanev can play 70.

I'm sensing a theme.

Unless my memory is failing me I seem to recall a big debate with leaffans on Stralman vs Elder way, way back when both were still 'youngsters'. Guess they didn't overhype the guy...

 

[Pure West]

Re-signing Edler is going to be a an absolute must if this defense is going to be better next season, barring some unforeseen signing of Erik Karlsson. He's going to come for cheaper than market price for a player of his calibre, and without him this team's already near-bottom-tier defense becomes an abomination. Not to mention, replacing him in free agency means you're going to sign a comparable player for more, or a worse player for the same money/term.

I think unless this team makes a big run to the playoffs this season and gets the organization really interested in beefing up next offseason, we likely come back with more or less the status quo. They replace Del Zotto and Pouliot with either Hughes/OJ and a 3rd tier FA defenseman. If they are serious about improving the defense next season, I think they will need to give up something of value in terms of a hockey trade.

 

[THE Green Man]

Re-signing Edler is going to be a an absolute must if this defense is going to be better next season, barring some unforeseen signing of Erik Karlsson. He's going to come for cheaper than market price for a player of his calibre, and without him this team's already near-bottom-tier defense becomes an abomination. Not to mention, replacing him in free agency means you're going to sign a comparable player for more, or a worse player for the same money/term.

I think unless this team makes a big run to the playoffs this season and gets the organization really interested in beefing up next offseason, we likely come back with more or less the status quo. They replace Del Zotto and Pouliot with either Hughes/OJ and a 3rd tier FA defenseman. If they are serious about improving the defense next season, I think they will need to give up something of value in terms of a hockey trade.

Definitely agree on Edler- a 2 year deal with market value AAV instead of a 3 year hometown discount deal would be what I would look for. This way his contract expires at the expansion draft and he won't need to be protected. Trade Gudbrandson for whatever you can get- they lost the trade in acquiring him anyways so you might as well just bite the bullet now. Re-sign Hutton as well. Don't see Karlsson or Myers coming here nor do I want to really give term to Stralman. Adding Engellund or Polak on a 1 year deal to replace Gudbrandson's physicality could be interesting as long as it's a 1 year deal.

Edler-Stecher
Hughes-Tanev
Hutton-Polak/Engellund
Biega
Utica call up OJ

Or if Tyramkin does get out of the last year of his KHL deal:

Edler-Tryamkin
Hughes-Tanev
Hutton-Stecher
Biega
Utica call up OJ

 

[Blue and Green]

Trade Gudbranson for whatever you can get for him, then go after Tyler Myers in free agency.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Trade Gudbranson for whatever you can get for him, then go after Tyler Myers in free agency.

I wish we would trade Gudbranson, but I don't see it happening.

As it stands right now, I feel like the most likely trade candidate on the blueline is Del Zotto. He'll go for a late pick or a B-C level prospect, methinks.

Renaud Lavoie speculated today that Edler would fetch a late 1st; but he'd need to agree to waive, first.

 

[Blue and Green]

I wish we would trade Gudbranson, but I don't see it happening.

As it stands right now, I feel like the most likely trade candidate on the blueline is Del Zotto. He'll go for a late pick or a B-C level prospect, methinks.

Renaud Lavoie speculated today that Edler would fetch a late 1st; but he'd need to agree to waive, first.

Yes, there was a wishful thinking element in my post. But I thought, hey, they like Gudbranson because he's "heavy"-- Myers is heavy too, and he can genuinely play. Would provide some much needed RHD offence plus we wouldn't be sunk on that side whenever Tanev is injured.

Would any team actually trade anything for Del Zotto?

 

[passive voice]

Definitely agree on Edler- a 2 year deal with market value AAV instead of a 3 year hometown discount deal would be what I would look for. This way his contract expires at the expansion draft and he won't need to be protected.

Also when Petey's and (probably) Hughes' ELCs expire

 

[zcaptain]

I think you guys are a little hard on Benning, mostly because not one of us can say what influence Aqualini has had, and what Gillis left him in prospects.....

In saying that, he is not without fault, but he has had a lot of holes to fill and most NHL media critics have said that Benning has done a good job. But we could debate this all day....everyone has their own POV....

But on the defense issue

I would like to see Benning trade Edler, who has been doing a great job, and then resign him in the summer to a short term contract......In review of past TDL trading of Defencemen of his ranking, a late 1st is probably what his worth is.

Trade with cap retention MDZ and Pouliot for later round picks, and bring up Brisebois and Sautner as their replacements. If only to signal that prospect will actually have a chance. Sautner did look good 2 years ago, on an injury call up.

I would keep Gudbranson, because at the very least, he is a behavior deterrent, and if given the right pairing would do fine. It doesn't matter what he cost, he is here now, and he serves a purpose, IMO.

Tanev, was and is a good defenseman, and has probably more value to us, than trying to move him.

I have a question on Tryamkin, and that is I understand the Canucks can't give his club the money directly, but is there any thing stopping the Canucks from approaching his club and buying him out.....his risk is exactly the same as with any other Russian coming from the KHL, is he as good as he is advertised? I say yes, and worth the risk of offering him a decent contract. 4 Million for 4 years, is fair. It is a risk, but honestly, with the way contracts are broken in the NHL lately, it would not be hard to break it, if he flubbed. IMO, when he left, he was a solid 3/4, I can live with that.

As for Drafting......the Canucks still have holes everywhere, and I think they should pick a LW/C, if in the top 10, and use Edelrs pick, and their 2nd to take the best defenseman available I would also take another goalie with a late 2nd or our 3rd.

As for our prospects, I am somewhat feeling positive about Hughes, Joulevi, Rathbone and Woo, and feel that they will all develop into good defensemen.

It is all opinion guys, and mine is worth about the same as yours (5 cents), but if anyone has a opinion on the Canucks buying out Tryamkin's contract, I would be interested to hear it.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Canucks1096]

Horvat Pettersson Boeser, you can get a top pairing D however it doesn't make sense to trade any of them.

Don't think JB wants to trade picks this year. He does have 9 picks in the 2019 draft so far. Our prospects are not worth much aside from Hughes but we are not trading Hughes.

FA. You will need to overpaid but FA might not be a long term solution

Players Like Baer, Goldobin and Virtanen are not worth a top 4 D. The best option is you trade one of the three for a number 5 D on That have Potential to be top 4 D. Kind of like How the Canucks got Salo for Schaefer back in 2003

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Del Zotto will be gone and I don't think Pouliot or Hutton will get qualified. I'm also certain
Benning will be backing up the Brinks truck for one of Gardiner or Karlsson. It'll be ugly either way.

There’s no way we don’t qualify Hutton...I would be livid

 

[F A N]

I wish we would trade Gudbranson, but I don't see it happening.

As it stands right now, I feel like the most likely trade candidate on the blueline is Del Zotto. He'll go for a late pick or a B-C level prospect, methinks.

Renaud Lavoie speculated today that Edler would fetch a late 1st; but he'd need to agree to waive, first.

I would be happy to get a 6th for Del Zotto. It's been a while since he has played in the playoffs however.

 

[wetcoast]

First we need to let Del Zotto and Pouliot walk that's a given. Second we need to re-sign Edler to a 3 year deal as he's still one of our best D-men. Third we need Tanev to stay to partner with Hughes who should be ready next season. As Hughes will be joining us next season I don't think Juolevi really has a spot as Edler, Hutton and Hughes should be all starters ahead of him on the left side. As Juolevi needs ice time he starts in AHL I'd think. Our right side would be Tanev and Stecher and if we could convince Tryamkin to come back I'd trade Gudbranson. I'd keep Biega as the 7th and Juolevi as the first call up. The following 8 man unit would have some ability on all pairings to move the puck up ice and defensive responsibility. There is a certain someone that could be available for the top pairing right side but OP said not to include I believe.

Edler Stecher
Hughes Tanev
Hutton Tryamkin/Gudbranson
Juolevi Biega

Agree with alot here, although I have my doubts that Tryamkin will ever be back in a Canucks uniform.

I think that the development of Hughes and Woo are critical to the Canucks long term and hopefully drafting another top 4 dman this year.

The ship is sailing on Oli for me.