Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 3

[417]

Replacing a vezina winner and a former Norris contender is no easy task. Condon, Tokarski, Fucale, Lindgren have all either busted or not taken the next step. Primeau is our only hope to replace Price and it's not an easy task.

But who says we HAVE to replace Price with an equally dominant goalie?

How do you know how the team is going to be constituted whenever Price moves on? Maybe the Habs won't be a team so dependent on the performance of their goalie.

Same thing with Weber. Beaulieu, Tinordi, Sergachev were among the future corner stone of our d-core they have all been traded. Brook, Romanov, Harris , Juulsen, Struble and Fleury have potential but until they actually reach it potential is only potential.

I don't konw...i've got way more confidence in the current group then Beaulieu, Tinori & Sergachev, who between them have very little hockey sense.

Our prospect need to take the next step and be near impact players in the next 2 or 3 years or Weber and Price will be wasted for Nothing. They will not be easy to replace and Banking everything on the future without trading them is ill-advised.

The Montreal Canadiens are going to be just fine after Price & Weber move on. I assure you.

You'll have a whole new crop of players to obsess about

 

[Tyson]

I think there was more to be had from a career year. But, Chicago came knocking at the right time and it appeared moving Shaw quickly was an imperative in anticipation of UFA Frenzy. Didn’t seem that Shaw was actively shopped.

Are the Habs better with or without Shaw going into this season? They didn’t replace him and it will show.

Bergevin cannot honestly look at his summer’s work and think that he improved the team enough to put them in the playoffs.

 

[417]

We'll see at the end of this year and 3 years whether they made the right decision or not. It's not a fantasy. It's an opinion.

I realize it's an opinion - I just think it's not rooted in reality.

You'd have to have completely missed the Subban/Bergevin fiasco that surrounded the team before and after the trade.

It was never a possibility.

 

[Habs Icing]

Fair point absolutely but if we “stole” him for 2 second round picks, why not be smart and get a better return? He had a solid season and I believe we could have at least gotten two 2nd rounders back.

Tyson, you must be one of the few who liked Shaw. I liked him too from the first day we got him but I don't think we over/underpaid to get him and I thought we received a fair return. Don't forget what did P.K. (the generational talent) go for?

Now if you ask me why trade him away and not replace his numbers? I don't have a good answer for you. All I can come up with is that management didn't see him as a top-six winger and there was no room for him on the team. Also, they want to give Domi a top winger and think that Poehling and/or Suzuki are ready. Just a wild guess.

 

[26Mats]

I realize it's an opinion - I just think it's not rooted in reality.

You'd have to have completely missed the Subban/Bergevin fiasco that surrounded the team before and after the trade.

It was never a possibility.

At some point Bergevin has to decide if he wants to do what's best for the team and win a cup or live in the past.

On Subban's end, he never wanted out.

 

[Miller Time]

Agreed - and it's because Shaw is more of a complimentary player, he's not a play driver. So he is replaceable/interchangeable. As are every other complimentary players.


100% agreed...which is why i'm not worried about "replacing" Shaw because I think he can be replaced internally with players who have higher upside.


I'd love for the Habs to get another right handed forward who could play with Domi...I've been championing the acquisition of Kasperi Kapanen for awhile now, I think he'd fit like a glove on that line and I think the cost to acquire him wouldn't be too prohibitive given it would just help the Leafs sign Marner.

But ultimately, I suspect that won't happen.

all players are "replaceable" to some degree. Shaw certainly isn't at the elite spectrum that would be next to impossible to replace... that said, i don't think it's fair to say that we can easily replace the elements he contributed last year with internal incumbents. That would take a significant PB, and of the potential players being considered, Armia probably has the best shot at getting there...

that though, creates a gap on the third line & downgrades the line support we provide our top young prospect, JKO.

So Mb's decision to trade, and not replace, Shaw, puts our two most important offensive assets in a poor position to succeed, which is just plain poor decision-making for a team that was neither cap-strapped, nor in dire need of amassing picks (especially non-1st rounders).

Adding a top-6 talent has been a need since 2012... and yet somehow all we managed to do after yet another playoff miss, is to downgrade our top-6... would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

 

[Mario Lemieux fan 66]

But who says we HAVE to replace Price with an equally dominant goalie?

How do you know how the team is going to be constituted whenever Price moves on? Maybe the Habs won't be a team so dependent on the performance of their goalie.

The Montreal Canadiens are going to be just fine after Price & Weber move on. I assure you.

You'll have a whole new crop of players to obsess about

They wasted the last remaining years of Markov and Plekanec by not sacrificing future for present. They also could have traded them and get a great return and surround Price, Subban, Pacioretty and Gallagher with youngers players closer to their age group. Bergevin did neither and the team is still a long way from the Stanley Cup.

Bergevin has the same dilemma right now: do i sacrifice some future for present help for Price and Weber or do i sacrifice Price and Weber right now to have a stronger core later ?

Bergevin will not choose a direction. Not having a direction has a cost and no upside other than Bergevin getting rich with friends.

 

[417]

all players are "replaceable" to some degree. Shaw certainly isn't at the elite spectrum that would be next to impossible to replace... that said, i don't think it's fair to say that we can easily replace the elements he contributed last year with internal incumbents. That would take a significant PB, and of the potential players being considered, Armia probably has the best shot at getting there...

that though, creates a gap on the third line & downgrades the line support we provide our top young prospect, JKO.

So Mb's decision to trade, and not replace, Shaw, puts our two most important offensive assets in a poor position to succeed, which is just plain poor decision-making for a team that was neither cap-strapped, nor in dire need of amassing picks (especially non-1st rounders).

Adding a top-6 talent has been a need since 2012... and yet somehow all we managed to do after yet another playoff miss, is to downgrade our top-6... would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

Don't agree they downgraded their top 6 forwards...the critical elements of that top 6 are still there. The pieces around it, which Shaw was IMO, are interchangeable.

 

[Runner77]

Are the Habs better with or without Shaw going into this season? They didn’t replace him and it will show.

Bergevin cannot honestly look at his summer’s work and think that he improved the team enough to put them in the playoffs.

They’re worse from a production standpoint. Who is going to replace him from within? We can speculate on rookies all we want, but it’s ultimately a crapshoot.

They’d be better off if their real intent was just to stockpile picks but that alternative also got foiled by not having fully maxed out on a career year.

Plus, they did nothing to address the PP, nor the 1st pairing D need.

 

[417]

They wasted the last remaining years of Markov and Plekanec by not sacrificing future for present. They also could have traded them and get a great return and surround Price, Subban, Pacioretty and Gallagher with youngers players closer to their age group. Bergevin did neither and the team is still a long way from the Stanley Cup.

You're preaching to the choir....no one was more adamant about moving those two, especially Plekanec, more than I was.

Bergevin has the same dilemma right now: do i sacrifice some future for present help for Price and Weber or do i sacrifice Price and Weber right now to have a stronger core later ?

If it makes sense...I think he has too.

Bergevin will not choose a direction. Not having a direction has a cost and no upside other than Bergevin getting rich with friends.

Well if he if he doesn't sacrifice youth for help in the present...doesn't that indicate a very specific direction?

 

[Miller Time]

Tyson, you must be one of the few who liked Shaw. I liked him too from the first day we got him but I don't think we over/underpaid to get him and I thought we received a fair return. Don't forget what did P.K. (the generational talent) go for?

Now if you ask me why trade him away and not replace his numbers? I don't have a good answer for you. All I can come up with is that management didn't see him as a top-six winger and there was no room for him on the team. Also, they want to give Domi a top winger and think that Poehling and/or Suzuki are ready. Just a wild guess.

Last season, 1 rookie exceeded Shaw's point total and ppg productivity... Elias Petersson.
year before, a bit better with 8 that beat his pt total, though only 4 the ppg (Barzal, keller, gourder, connor, debrincat...)
before that, 6 & 3 (matthews, marner, laine, nylander, aho, tkachuk... studs like point, rantanen, guentzel didn't )

my point being that, i'll be thrilled if either Poehling or Suzuki can step in and perform at/above the level of the top rookie skaters of the past few years (which is what it would take to replace Shaw's productivity last year), but i'm not banking on that and it would also mean playing them out of position.

Not much in MB's history, nor CJulien's approach, would suggest their prone to banking heavily on pure rookies to step in and play significant roles... could be, but doesn't seem the most plausible explanation.

more consistent with what we've seen, is that he made a mistake, thought he could out-manoueuvre other GM's and got stuck downgrading his roster even while everyone and their dog knows that playoffs is the intention and the internal (price/weber/molson?) and external (media/fans) pressure to do so will be huge.

 

[Runner77]

Tyson, you must be one of the few who liked Shaw. I liked him too from the first day we got him but I don't think we over/underpaid to get him and I thought we received a fair return. Don't forget what did P.K. (the generational talent) go for?

Now if you ask me why trade him away and not replace his numbers? I don't have a good answer for you. All I can come up with is that management didn't see him as a top-six winger and there was no room for him on the team. Also, they want to give Domi a top winger and think that Poehling and/or Suzuki are ready. Just a wild guess.

Subban is a false equivalency in your example.

Will bet you fake currency on this site that Subban bounces back to his pre-injury form.

As much as Poile had the upper hand in the Weber deal, he badly miscalculated in trading Subban for so little. Also, some have explained the trade as a pure cap room move in order to sign Duchene, given how the cap max regressed this year and it worked for the Preds.

Name your currency amount and I’ll match you if you want to bet.

 

[Miller Time]

Don't agree they downgraded their top 6 forwards...the critical elements of that top 6 are still there. The pieces around it, which Shaw was IMO, are interchangeable.

last year's roster performance suggests your take is inaccurate. None of the incumbent vets are strong candidates to step up to a .75ppg level of offensive output, and none of them play with the aggressive style that Shaw does... an element our fwd group already was short on prior to the downgrade.

banking on Poehling/Suzuki to step in and produce at that level would require them outperforming the vast majority of rookies and approach or match the kind of output guys like Matthews, Petersson, Marner, Keller et. put forward in their first year... Would love to see that, but certainly don't see that as likely or expected.

 

[Mario Lemieux fan 66]

Well if he if he doesn't sacrifice youth for help in the present...doesn't that indicate a very specific direction?

The No man's land. Not good enough to contend for the Stanley Cup and not bad enough to draft the top end talent the Habs need.

If Bergevin was actually building the team to be contender in the future, he would have traded Benn at the trade deadline and he would be looking to trade one of Weber or Petry and Byron this year.

 

[417]

last year's roster performance suggests your take is inaccurate. None of the incumbent vets are strong candidates to step up to a .75ppg level of offensive output, and none of them play with the aggressive style that Shaw does... an element our fwd group already was short on prior to the downgrade.

And Shaw wasn't a strong candidate to maintain that pace either...

banking on Poehling/Suzuki to step in and produce at that level would require them outperforming the vast majority of rookies and approach or match the kind of output guys like Matthews, Petersson, Marner, Keller et. put forward in their first year... Would love to see that, but certainly don't see that as likely or expected.

We really don't know how next year is going to play out...

Last year no one expected Shaw's season or Domi's or no one expected Kotkaniemi to make the team.

I'm going to stay away from these blanket statements that predict what a player can or can't do.

 

[Runner77]

The No man's land. Not good enough to contend for the Stanley Cup and not bad enough to draft the top end talent the Habs need.

If Bergevin was actually building the team to be contender in the future, he would have traded Benn at the trade deadline and he would be looking to trade one of Weber or Petry and Byron this year.

Exactly. It’s the time tested syndrome of chasing two rabbits and ending up with neither.

 

[417]

The No man's land. Not good enough to contend for the Stanley Cup and not bad enough to draft the top end talent the Habs need.

Jeez...the Habs were coming off finishing a season 27th...this past year they finished 15th overall.

For any other fanbase, this would be seen as solid progress. The fanbase would be invigorated at the season ahead.

But for Habs fans it means they're going to perpetually end up in 15th place for eternity.

Were you expecting the Habs to go from 27th overall to Cup champions in one offseason?

If Bergevin was actually building the team to be contender in the future, he would have traded Benn at the trade deadline and he would be looking to trade one of Weber or Petry and Byron this year.

I was disappointed Benn wasn't moved, definitely a wasted opportunity to stockpile even more picks.

Byron I expect to go because the Habs are deepest on the wings and young players are going to need icetime soon.

Weber and Petry I don't see moving any time soon

 

[Mario Lemieux fan 66]

Jeez...the Habs were coming off finishing a season 27th...this past year they finished 15th overall.

For any other fanbase, this would be seen as solid progress. The fanbase would be invigorated at the season ahead.

But for Habs fans it means they're going to perpetually end up in 15th place for eternity.

Were you expecting the Habs to go from 27th overall to Cup champions in one offseason?

Weber and Price are not Eternal. Every year we missed the playoff with them without getting a top 3 pick is a wasted year. Bergevin should have look for a sign and trade at the trade deadline for either Stone or Duchene or should have make a compelling offersheet for Aho instead of a lousy one.

Habs missed the playoffs and yet Bergevin didn't add talent to the team instead, he traded the winger with the best Chemistry with Domi. All the fans hope are on Young rookies to over perform to get the team out of the mediocrity.

 

[bsl]

Once more...I never said I agreed with this plan or that he's capable of doing it.

I'm just telling you what he said...and so far, what he said he was going to do, he's doing.

And yes, of course every team wants to be faster and younger...but not every team is capable of doing it.


Seems to me the Habs are built to compete for a playoff spot now and they also have the makings of being a team who may be able to compete for more in 2-3-4 years.


Well I suppose that depends on how someone interprets his words.

When I see "younger and faster" and then I see trades like Pacioretty for Tatar + Suzuki + 2nd round pick or Domi for Galchenyuk or trading Shaw for picks.

It signals to me that this team wants to give more room to younger players on this roster. They want to build through the draft.

Which I think is great...but I have serious concerns with Bergevin's ability to be aggressive in this scenario (i.e. provoking the market like the Rangers have for example) and i'm even more concerned with how this renewed focus on youth/speed, falls in line with how their head coach likes to coach his teams.

I’m really not getting you. You are all over the place. My opinion is that habs have been badly managed the last 7 years. And their drafting has been awful. Mb should have fired Timmins the minute he came in.

Habs are terrible and they have average prospects. Aging goalie.

Is this not evident to you?

 

[417]

Weber and Price are not Eternal. Every year we missed the playoff with them without getting a top 3 pick is a wasted year. Bergevin should have look for a sign and trade at the trade deadline for either Stone or Duchene or should have make a compelling offersheet for Aho instead of a lousy one.

It's a wasted year for everyone on the team...not just those 2 players

 

[417]

I’m really not getting you. You are all over the place. My opinion is that habs have been badly managed the last 7 years. And their drafting has been awful. Mb should have fired Timmins the minute he came in.

Habs are terrible and they have average prospects. Aging goalie.

Is this not evident to you?

Don't agree they have average prospects...the goalie is aging at the same pace as every living human on the planet.

So no, that's not evident to me.

I'm not part of this "everything that's Habs sucks" fever that's going on around here.

 

[Milhouse40]

Hence why the acquired an extra 2nd + 3rd


You wanted Shaw off the team since he became a Hab, I don't know how many times i've seen you call him an overpaid 4th liner.

And now you're shedding crocodile tears cause he was traded?

I'm not sad to see Shaw gone. Not one bit, true that i wasn't his biggest fans.
But i hate the return but if it's all he would get for Shaw which i doubt, i would have keep him.

I think i speak for a lot of fans when i say that a lot expected a winger to be traded.
We had more than enough capable wingers. But the talks was to trade one to help our defense or to get some size.

No one and i mean no one talked bout getting rid of one of those wingers for picks.
Trading Shaw simply weakens our position of strenght for an eventual trade to get that help on defense or to fix whatever weakness on this team.

It's simply serves no purposes and simply makes it even harder to fix this team.

 

[417]

I'm not sad to see Shaw gone. Not one bit, true that i wasn't his biggest fans.
But i hate the return but if it's all he would get for Shaw which i doubt, i would have keep him.

That's an understatement.

I think i speak for a lot of fans when i say that a lot expected a winger to be traded.
We had more than enough capable wingers. But the talks was to trade one to help our defense or to get some size.

Draft picks can be used as currency as well you know?

No one and i mean no one talked bout getting rid of one of those wingers for picks.
Trading Shaw simply weakens our position of strenght for an eventual trade to get that help on defense or to fix whatever weakness on this team.

It's simply serves no purposes and simply makes it even harder to fix this team.

Again...if you had your way, you would have dumped Andrew Shaw for a jock strap not too long ago.

This about-face routine you've turned too is very transparent.

 

[WinterLion]

Technically, nobody needs to be directly replaced. We lose Price..okay..no biggie, we just need the guys in front to play better.
Now, we lost Shaw who contributed nicely last year to our team. Sure, if KK plays a bit better, Domi goes up to 90pts, Mete finally starts producing, Poeh comes in with 30pts, and the rest also plays just as well or better than last year...then ya, we will be fine.

We lost a 50pt contributor from last season. We didn't really bring in anybody expected to fill that gap.
For a team aiming to make the POs, it's a bit of an odd decision.
That being said, no, it isn't the end of the world. It doesn't mean the Habs will tank. It doesn't mean the Habs won't compete for a POs spot either.
Not sure why some are having such a hard time admitting losing a 50pt guy and not replacing him doesn't help.

I just feel like we have a bunch of guys that will be able to take over those minutes and probably do just as well.

Also calling Shaw a 50 pt player is a stretch. Last year was his best year ever and he didn't reach 50pts. Traditionally his pace is closer to what Armia got last year... and I imagine Armia will be one of the guys counted on to play some of those minutes.

 

[WinterLion]

I'm not sad to see Shaw gone. Not one bit, true that i wasn't his biggest fans.
But i hate the return but if it's all he would get for Shaw which i doubt, i would have keep him.

I think i speak for a lot of fans when i say that a lot expected a winger to be traded.
We had more than enough capable wingers. But the talks was to trade one to help our defense or to get some size.

No one and i mean no one talked bout getting rid of one of those wingers for picks.
Trading Shaw simply weakens our position of strenght for an eventual trade to get that help on defense or to fix whatever weakness on this team.

It's simply serves no purposes and simply makes it even harder to fix this team.

If you keep all the wingers, it forces you to make much tougher decision if a young player earns a spot out of camp. Also we have quite a bit of depth at wing and unless you think Shaw is way better than the alternatives, then I don't see this as a high risk move at all.