Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 3

[Runner77]

Isn't what I posted evidence of a reset? If the coach deploys Weal and company it would be status quo in my eyes, how is that bizarre?

We already have a status quo lineup.

Add to that a coach who likes his bottom players and his vets and you may just see a replay of last year minus all the career years that happened last season.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm not trying to call specific people out...there's multiple Andrew Shaw threads that you can parse though if you'd like.

But let's just please not act like he wasn't the most hated Hab over the last few years. Fans hated the trade, the contract handed to him, his injury history (to the point where people laughed at his concussion), etc.

He wasn't popular among Habs fans...which is what the Domi comment about him being underrated, stems from.

I mean..it's kind of important to know who so you don't just lump in every fan together. Nothing wrong with calling out the ones who are flip flopping.
A guy like Belial kept arguing how there's no way Bergey wouldn't sign Markov, once he didn't, he flipped to Markov sucks train...like...overnight. No shame. But he'll be the first to admit he just supports whatever the organization does.

Patches was quite unpopular too, some wanted him off the team asap, they might even say they'd move him out for whatever in the spur of the moment. Nobody would actually just give him up though.
As for Shaw..glad he was moved, I agree on the timing. But, from a making the PO position, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We will need all the help we can get to sneak into the POs and he brought something we don't have a whole lot of.

 

[Kriss E]

This was a good time to sell Shaw, given his career year.

Could they not have had more for him? I guess we’ll never know but certainly, Shaw’s last season had positive market value.

Well I agree with that. I don't hate this move.
I hate not having a clear direction from the administration...they have no idea where they're going..just winging it.

 

[Miller Time]

Hence why the acquired an extra 2nd + 3rd


You wanted Shaw off the team since he became a Hab, I don't know how many times i've seen you call him an overpaid 4th liner.

And now you're shedding crocodile tears cause he was traded?

I'm no fan of Drouin, would prefer he be traded... if he were traded anytime soon and we got less than 1st+ value in return, it would be a bad trade.

Was no fan of Pacioretty, wanted to see him traded... return we got, at the time, was the bare minimum (tatar bouncing back made the trade more palatable, in hindsight), wasn't thrilled.


the emotional side of player appreciation, or lackthereof, should have little to do with evaluating the player as an asset.

Even "an overpaid 4th liner" who puts up ,75ppg, should be leveraged for the best possible return. In the current market, it's not accurate to say that a 2nd & 3rd is a good return for a player in their late 20's who is coming off of a career year at that kind of scoring rate (especially when the player brings other "intangibles" that many existing NHL GM's still value highly).

It was a bad trade. What posters felt of the player is irrelevant to that. What was said about Shaw before his career year, also irrelevant. League is littered with players who translated 1 very good season into a big long-term contract and/or GM's who paid a large trade price for a player... Trades are about what you think the player will do next, and the most impactful indicator is what they've most recently accomplished.

 

[Omar]

No we don't agree on that...let's assume they stay here, 5-7yrs from now, i'm sure their role will have changed but that's normal.

Just like Zdeno Chara at 42yrs old isn't the Bruins #1D anymore or just like the Joe Thornton isn't the Sharks #1C anymore

That’s the point. Chara and Thornton have changed roles. Do you expect Price to be a backup? What other role can he have?

The Habs barely missed the playoffs last year...I really don't think we're going to have to wait 4-5yrs from now.

How do you know this??? lol

And once more, the Habs are not rebuilding

Maybe our definition of success is different. Of course making the playoffs won’t take 4-5 years, but I want us competing for the Cup every year like the Hawks and Kings did. For that we need to build through the draft and draft high. I know we’re not there yet by simply looking at our team.

I don’t prescribe to my team just making the playoffs as being a success. Having a mission of just making the playoffs is a sign of a weak organization. A winner’s mentality is going for the big prize every season where every game matters, not just winning enough to get in the playoffs. That’s why I like soccer- every game matters. If you drop points you lose the chance at the league title - no playoffs.

I’ve supported the Habs for decades. I’m done with “just playoffs.” I want Cups. And I understand you have to suck first to get there. Sure they may go on a Cinderella run like the conference finals for one season, it was never sustainable. We’re very close with our current prospect pool but it will take time to develop the players.

The Habs are rebuilding, whether the organization says it or not. You don’t have to trade everyone and scorch the earth to rebuild the team. Like you said, the Bruins kept Chara and the Rangers kept Lundqvist, both rebuilt. We traded Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk. I think Byron and Petry are next. The organization wants to call it a reset so they don’t look like they’ve failed, but a partial rebuild or reset is still a rebuild.

The question is, which veterans to keep around in a reset and which to trade because their value is high? And it can be gradual. Not all guys have to leave at the same time but turnover is natural.

 

[Miller Time]

I mean..it's kind of important to know who so you don't just lump in every fan together. Nothing wrong with calling out the ones who are flip flopping.
A guy like Belial kept arguing how there's no way Bergey wouldn't sign Markov, once he didn't, he flipped to Markov sucks train...like...overnight. No shame. But he'll be the first to admit he just supports whatever the organization does.

Patches was quite unpopular too, some wanted him off the team asap, they might even say they'd move him out for whatever in the spur of the moment. Nobody would actually just give him up though.
As for Shaw..glad he was moved, I agree on the timing. But, from a making the PO position, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We will need all the help we can get to sneak into the POs and he brought something we don't have a whole lot of.

indeed... the shaw trade was bad, but not just because the value was mediocre, it's also how it fits into the broader picture of where the team is at, and what it is ostensibly trying to accomplish.

- smallish, softish forward group loses it's most physical top-9 player
- mediocre scoring forward group loses it's most productive (ppg) winger from the previous season
- team adds only 4th liners & journey men to said fwd group
- best top-6 potential prospects are all 1st year pro's (poehling, suzuki)
- no cap pressure necessitating the trade
- team with vezina goalie and aging #1 dman, both in their 30's
- team that has made playoffs a priority, and has only 1 playoffs in the past 4 seasons

factor all of that in, and trading Shaw at this time made absolutely no sense.... unless of course, we got a great return, which we didn't.

it was a mediocre (average) return, and given the context, a terrible trade.

shaw's popularity, or the fact that the original trade to get him was also a mediocre trade that, given the context, was a terrible decision, are both irrelevant.

 

[The Real Timo]

All I have to say is that if you people knew what Marc Bergevin knows you wouldn't be criticizing his summer moves.

 

[Miller Time]

That’s the point. Chara and Thornton have changed roles. Do you expect Price to be a backup? What other role can he have?



Maybe our definition of success is different. Of course making the playoffs won’t take 4-5 years, but I want us competing for the Cup every year like the Hawks and Kings did. For that we need to build through the draft and draft high. I know we’re not there yet by simply looking at our team.

I don’t prescribe to my team just making the playoffs as being a success. Having a mission of just making the playoffs is a sign of a weak organization. A winner’s mentality is going for the big prize every season where every game matters, not just winning enough to get in the playoffs. That’s why I like soccer- every game matters. If you drop points you lose the chance at the league title - no playoffs.

I’ve supported the Habs for decades. I’m done with “just playoffs.” I want Cups. And I understand you have to suck first to get there. Sure they may go on a Cinderella run like the conference finals for one season, it was never sustainable. We’re very close with our current prospect pool but it will take time to develop the players.

The Habs are rebuilding, whether the organization says it or not. You don’t have to trade everyone and scorch the earth to rebuild the team. Like you said, the Bruins kept Chara and the Rangers kept Lundqvist, both rebuilt. We traded Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk. I think Byron and Petry are next. The organization wants to call it a reset so they don’t look like they’ve failed, but a partial rebuild or reset is still a rebuild.

The question is, which veterans to keep around in a reset and which to trade because their value is high? And it can be gradual. Not all guys have to leave at the same time but turnover is natural.

Price and Gallagher are the only two players still part of the organization from when MB took over...

he has fully "rebuilt" the roster, in his own image...

and that is precisely our biggest problem, one that won't be solved until we address it properly and hire a competent GM.

 

[Runner77]

All I have to say is that if you people knew what Marc Bergevin knows you wouldn't be criticizing his summer moves.

A thread is never complete without an appeal to authority and a reminder about how fans are not privy to what goes on behind closed doors.

 

[The Real Timo]

A thread is never complete without an appeal to authority and a reminder about how fans are not privy to what goes on behind closed doors.

Transparency...

 

[sampollock]

All I have to say is that if you people knew what Marc Bergevin knows you wouldn't be criticizing his summer moves.

AND what would that be, he picked the phone up asked about a player and hung up

until results, just like winning a cup or making playoffs, proof is in the pudding

 

[Tabarouette]

A thread is never complete without an appeal to authority and a reminder about how fans are not privy to what goes on behind closed doors.

Chiarelli is actually the best GM of all time behind closed doors it's just that all the moves he made publicly sucked

 

[sampollock]

Kyle Connor says the plan is to have a new contract in place before Jets' training camp begins because he would hate to miss any part camp.

so what's up with Laine , MB?

 

[Lebowski]

Since I watched Montreal canadiens (almost 20 years.). I could tell you at the beggining of the season that we were a playoff team. Most of the time i was correct. Now since 2 years, i cannot say that we are a playoff team. And its not because im older, its because bergevin decided to just doing nothing for improve the team or just try to acquire good pick and hoping

For all his flaws, I think Bergevin is doing the right thing for this team right now. Which is stacking young players and hoping to hit a few homeruns.

I like how the team is shaping up. A couple more years of that and we’ll have a solid core.

 

[lo striver]

All I have to say is that if you people knew what Marc Bergevin knows you wouldn't be criticizing his summer moves.

"If you’re ever in a foxhole and you want someone next you, that’s what Marc Bergevin is."

 

[Miller Time]

For all his flaws, I think Bergevin is doing the right thing for this team right now. Which is stacking young players and hoping to hit a few homeruns.

I like how the team is shaping up. A couple more years of that and we’ll have a solid core.

yeah, perhaps a core and prospect depth as solid as the one we had in 2012

 

[Runner77]

For all his flaws, I think Bergevin is doing the right thing for this team right now. Which is stacking young players and hoping to hit a few homeruns.

I like how the team is shaping up. A couple more years of that and we’ll have a solid core.

A couple more years of that begs the question — who is MB doing that for? The guy who replaces him? Likely not. A couple more years of that presupposes another MB extension and that’s cringeworthy.

 

[The Real Timo]

"If you’re ever in a foxhole and you want someone next you, that’s what Marc Bergevin is."

I always wondered... what's so bad about being in a foxhole? Foxes are cute, soft, playful... how bad can it be that you need a big muscle man like Bergevin there to back you up?

 

[417]

Isn't what I posted evidence of a reset? If the coach deploys Weal and company it would be status quo in my eyes, how is that bizarre?

This discussion was never about the coach, who btw I said several times that I doubted he himself would subscribe to this "youth/speed" transition Bergevin started implementing in 2018.

So you saying that if Weal starts taking ice time from KK or Poehling, that you're going to call me out on it, is bizarre.

 

[417]

I mean..it's kind of important to know who so you don't just lump in every fan together. Nothing wrong with calling out the ones who are flip flopping.
A guy like Belial kept arguing how there's no way Bergey wouldn't sign Markov, once he didn't, he flipped to Markov sucks train...like...overnight. No shame. But he'll be the first to admit he just supports whatever the organization does.

Patches was quite unpopular too, some wanted him off the team asap, they might even say they'd move him out for whatever in the spur of the moment. Nobody would actually just give him up though.

That's fine but i'm not trying to call people out - we all get humbled by the things we say on here. It's not the point.

It's just when you see posters flip flopping on Shaw (which was many posters here), it just shows you that they don't look at players objectively, but only through the lens of Marc Bergevin.

If Drouin was traded today, this board would flip flop too..because that's what we do. It's not about the game or the players anymore.

It's just about shi**ing on the GM by any means necessary.

As for Shaw..glad he was moved, I agree on the timing. But, from a making the PO position, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We will need all the help we can get to sneak into the POs and he brought something we don't have a whole lot of.

Don't you want the Habs to miss the playoffs...and get worse?

You should be thrilled then.

 

[The Real Timo]

So you saying that if Weal starts taking ice time from KK or Poehling, that you're going to call me out on it, is bizarre.

IF?! There is no IF about Weal getting more ice time than KK or Poehling. In Clod I trust.

 

[417]

I'm no fan of Drouin, would prefer he be traded... if he were traded anytime soon and we got less than 1st+ value in return, it would be a bad trade.

Was no fan of Pacioretty, wanted to see him traded... return we got, at the time, was the bare minimum (tatar bouncing back made the trade more palatable, in hindsight), wasn't thrilled.


the emotional side of player appreciation, or lackthereof, should have little to do with evaluating the player as an asset.

Even "an overpaid 4th liner" who puts up ,75ppg, should be leveraged for the best possible return. In the current market, it's not accurate to say that a 2nd & 3rd is a good return for a player in their late 20's who is coming off of a career year at that kind of scoring rate (especially when the player brings other "intangibles" that many existing NHL GM's still value highly).

That's only true if you ignore the 441 other games he played and just focus on the 63 games he played this year.

It was a bad trade. What posters felt of the player is irrelevant to that. What was said about Shaw before his career year, also irrelevant. League is littered with players who translated 1 very good season into a big long-term contract and/or GM's who paid a large trade price for a player... Trades are about what you think the player will do next, and the most impactful indicator is what they've most recently accomplished.

It's relevant to me...maybe to you it isn't.

 

[Lebowski]

yeah, perhaps a core and prospect depth as solid as the one we had in 2012

Hopefully...

I’ve never defended Bergevin over the consecutive years of screw ups that have led us to where we are today, but when it comes to the last couple of seasons, I think he did what he had to do. As of right now, I don’t see the point in trying to get significant quick fix improvements.

 

[417]

That’s the point. Chara and Thornton have changed roles. Do you expect Price to be a backup? What other role can he have?

I have no idea what Price's game will look like in 3-4yrs from now...he'll be whatever he'll be.

If Chara, Thornton, Ludqvist...can change roles, so will Price and Weber.

It's not any different.

Maybe our definition of success is different. Of course making the playoffs won’t take 4-5 years, but I want us competing for the Cup every year like the Hawks and Kings did. For that we need to build through the draft and draft high. I know we’re not there yet by simply looking at our team.

No, you just need to draft well.

You bring up Hawks & Kings, but I can easily bring up the Oilers and Coyotes.

I don’t prescribe to my team just making the playoffs as being a success. Having a mission of just making the playoffs is a sign of a weak organization. A winner’s mentality is going for the big prize every season where every game matters, not just winning enough to get in the playoffs. That’s why I like soccer- every game matters. If you drop points you lose the chance at the league title - no playoffs.

It all depends on where your organization is...the Habs are 2 years removed from being the 4th worse overall.

Expecting and telling your fans that the Cup is your goal this year is just setting unrealistic expectations.

I’ve supported the Habs for decades. I’m done with “just playoffs.” I want Cups. And I understand you have to suck first to get there. Sure they may go on a Cinderella run like the conference finals for one season, it was never sustainable. We’re very close with our current prospect pool but it will take time to develop the players.

Take a look across the league...young players are starting to make an impact at a younger age because teams need their cheap salaries.

Poehling, Suzuki, Romanov, Ylonen, Caufield are all names who are to be on the team in in the next 2yrs.

The Habs are rebuilding, whether the organization says it or not. You don’t have to trade everyone and scorch the earth to rebuild the team. Like you said, the Bruins kept Chara and the Rangers kept Lundqvist, both rebuilt. We traded Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk. I think Byron and Petry are next. The organization wants to call it a reset so they don’t look like they’ve failed, but a partial rebuild or reset is still a rebuild.

PotAto vs POtato

The question is, which veterans to keep around in a reset and which to trade because their value is high? And it can be gradual. Not all guys have to leave at the same time but turnover is natural.

It is natural...hence why i'm not personally concerned about Price and Weber.

 

[sampollock]

MB can't worry about Price and Weber in 3 years,
Time is now, they are primed