Value of: Gudas/Simmonds package deal to Toronto

[Tripod]

Have a feeling Dubas will be dumb enough to sign Simmons this summer to a long term deal.

now THAT would be a mistake and one Dubas won't do. The $ is just not there anyways.

 

[Starat327]

Have a feeling Dubas will be dumb enough to sign Simmons this summer to a long term deal.

Youve got nothing to worry about here. If Simmonds was willing to sign cheap enough that Leafs could afford him without them having to move any major pieces, he'd already be re-signed in Philly.

Simmonds should rightfully get about 6(+) on the open market, and the Leafs cant afford a 6M+ player who would be on their 3rd line.

 

[Critical13]

No...you said "the # of teams willing to give up a 1st". I showed that just last year Boston traded a 1st+ a 53 point pace guy for Rick Nash who was on his last legs.

If you look back, I said Kap for BOTH Simmonds and Gudas. So obviously I don't think Simmonds should/can fetch Kap on his own.

But I also said the Flyers will be looking for NHL ready/already playing players vs a 1st that will maybe help 3 years from now.

That's true, I see that now. What I meant was you don't get a player like Kapanen and a 1st. In fact I don't think you ever get a Kapanen type player for a rental unless you are dealing with McPhee. A 1st definitely, and I fully expect Toronto to trade theirs away this year.

I would definitely deal the 1st for Simmonds. Kapanen is an obvious no considering that if you compare them now, they are close, and one is young. Simmonds+Gudas doesn't do a lot for me if we're giving up Kap either. I would only trade Kapanen is were getting a long term Top 4 D, and I don't think Gudas is that even in Toronto. I expect him top start sliding down Philly's depth chart soon as well.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Except they do.

Brassard got Ian Cole, a recent 2nd rounder and a 1st.

Nash got Spooner, Beleskey, a recent 2nd rounder, and a 1st. He retired at the end of the season.

Every year people say rental players aren't worth what teams think they're worth and then every year deals like this happen.

Something for nothing is more popular than the less appealing real world. We tend to live in something I call a “managed reality” here.

 

[Liferleafer]

Something for nothing is more popular than the less appealing real world. We tend to live in something I call a “managed reality” here.

You think Gudas is worth a 1st? Listen, this isn't one of those cases were you can run around belittling your "fellow fans", i have had many discussions with Flyers fans that value Gudas at a 2nd+. Something for nothing....lol.

Gudas is a physical bruiser/D 1st player with very little offensive upside that on teams with good or better than average D, would play 3rd pair. While that may sound like a knock on him...it actually isn't, because that's exactly something the Leafs need....but you don't pay a 1st for that.

 

[meefer]

To the Flyers: Kasperi Kapanen and Calle Rosen
To the Leafs: Wayne Simmonds and Phillipe Myers

 

[Tripod]

That's true, I see that now. What I meant was you don't get a player like Kapanen and a 1st. In fact I don't think you ever get a Kapanen type player for a rental unless you are dealing with McPhee. A 1st definitely, and I fully expect Toronto to trade theirs away this year.

I would definitely deal the 1st for Simmonds. Kapanen is an obvious no considering that if you compare them now, they are close, and one is young. Simmonds+Gudas doesn't do a lot for me if we're giving up Kap either. I would only trade Kapanen is were getting a long term Top 4 D, and I don't think Gudas is that even in Toronto. I expect him top start sliding down Philly's depth chart soon as well.

I think we agree for sure.

The Leafs need cheap contracts...and ones that produce are a huge bonus. I do wonder what his agent might ask for now given that he has the ammo of "play me in a scoring role and I produce". Hard to argue with that.

As for Gudas...he won't slip down our depth chart because we have an idiot head coach who is all over the map. AMac went from healthy scratch to now playing with Provy....lol. Gudas and Sanheim have been a great pair...that even Hak himself said has played well. He then also said he won't change their icetime....lol.

But Gudas is the Flyers only RHD in the top 6(Folin is scratched for now). And he SHOULD be being played with Sanheim in the top 4, but Hak is a hack. If he is traded, the acquiring team will be quite happy with him.

And as I said before, a team could acquire him for this cap run, and always trade him in the summer to re-coup what they spent on him...or most of it. Personally, I would rather hold onto Gudas right now since we have no Dman who plays with that edge, is our only RHD, and is cheap. It's f***ing AMac that needs to go!

 

[Critical13]

I think we agree for sure.

The Leafs need cheap contracts...and ones that produce are a huge bonus. I do wonder what his agent might ask for now given that he has the ammo of "play me in a scoring role and I produce". Hard to argue with that.

As for Gudas...he won't slip down our depth chart because we have an idiot head coach who is all over the map. AMac went from healthy scratch to now playing with Provy....lol. Gudas and Sanheim have been a great pair...that even Hak himself said has played well. He then also said he won't change their icetime....lol.

But Gudas is the Flyers only RHD in the top 6(Folin is scratched for now). And he SHOULD be being played with Sanheim in the top 4, but Hak is a hack. If he is traded, the acquiring team will be quite happy with him.

And as I said before, a team could acquire him for this cap run, and always trade him in the summer to re-coup what they spent on him...or most of it. Personally, I would rather hold onto Gudas right now since we have no Dman who plays with that edge, is our only RHD, and is cheap. It's ****ing AMac that needs to go!

I would agree with that as well.I don't think the Flyers should be making any panic moves. I get it, though. You have Giroux and Voracek playing at high levels, you want to capitalize on that. Simmonds totally makes sense to trade with JVR in the picture long term.

I see Simmonds as being a mercenary for the rest of his career. I think with the new NHL, whoever signs him for 6 mil or close to it is a fool. It will happen, though.

 

[Tripod]

To the Flyers: Kasperi Kapanen and Calle Rosen
To the Leafs: Wayne Simmonds and Phillipe Myers

no

Myers is not available. He is our only "near NHL" level D prospect that had top 4 upside. Next year, we "should" be icing:

Provy Ghost
Sanheim Gudas
Morin Myers
Hagg
AMac waived

And again, the Flyers need RHD with only Gudas being one in the top 6. Myers can't be traded. And I like Kap, but he would still be likely playing behind Konecny and Voracek on RW. And on LW we have Giroux, JVR and Lindblom(who needs icetime).

 

[Volica]

Looks like some people haven't learned for the rental deals of the last few years.

The number of teams willing to give up a 1st, let alone a young player on pace for 30g and 58 points while playing top pk minutes, for a rental just don't exist anymore.

Yet every year firsts are used. 5 to be exact last year.
Here were the powerhouse names traded:
Nash - UFA
Kane - UFA
Hartman - RFA
Statsny - UFA
Tatar - Term

Note. None of those deals were a 1st round pick alone.

I, if you read, never said Kapanen should be part of the deal. What I'm saying, is Philly is going to want more than a first alone or a first and real junk; for Simmonds. That's a player that's going to get a haul if I've ever seen one. What team wouldn't want him for a playoff run?

 

[Tripod]

I would agree with that as well.I don't think the Flyers should be making any panic moves. I get it, though. You have Giroux and Voracek playing at high levels, you want to capitalize on that. Simmonds totally makes sense to trade with JVR in the picture long term.

I see Simmonds as being a mercenary for the rest of his career. I think with the new NHL, whoever signs him for 6 mil or close to it is a fool. It will happen, though.

agreed. I have been on the "trade Wayne" train for a few years mostly because I fear the next contract, not who he is today. And yeah, to me adding JVR makes Simmonds and absolute no in re-signing. Hope Mgt agrees.

But I do think if someone does trade for Simmonds, they will be very happy with him come playoff time.

 

[Critical13]

no

Myers is not available. He is our only "near NHL" level D prospect that had top 4 upside. Next year, we "should" be icing:

Provy Ghost
Sanheim Gudas
Morin Myers
Hagg
AMac waived

And again, the Flyers need RHD with only Gudas being one in the top 6. Myers can't be traded. And I like Kap, but he would still be likely playing behind Konecny and Voracek on RW. And on LW we have Giroux, JVR and Lindblom(who needs icetime).

I'd like to acquire Hagg for our LD if Gardiner walks. I know he's not very good but he'd be our most physical D and gives us time to develop Sandin in peace.

 

[Tripod]

I, if you read, never said Kapanen should be part of the deal. What I'm saying, is Philly is going to want more than a first alone or a first and real junk; for Simmonds. That's a player that's going to get a haul if I've ever seen one. What team wouldn't want him for a playoff run?

I wonder what a Boston/Leafs bidding war would look like. Neither would want the other to get him.

 

[Critical13]

Yet every year firsts are used. 5 to be exact last year.
Here were the powerhouse names traded:
Nash - UFA
Kane - UFA
Hartman - RFA
Statsny - UFA
Tatar - Term

Note. None of those deals were a 1st round pick alone.

I, if you read, never said Kapanen should be part of the deal. What I'm saying, is Philly is going to want more than a first alone or a first and real junk; for Simmonds. That's a player that's going to get a haul if I've ever seen one. What team wouldn't want him for a playoff run?

A first, sure. I can agree with that, and I am guessing we deal ours.

 

[meefer]

no

Myers is not available. He is our only "near NHL" level D prospect that had top 4 upside. Next year, we "should" be icing:

Provy Ghost
Sanheim Gudas
Morin Myers
Hagg
AMac waived

And again, the Flyers need RHD with only Gudas being one in the top 6. Myers can't be traded. And I like Kap, but he would still be likely playing behind Konecny and Voracek on RW. And on LW we have Giroux, JVR and Lindblom(who needs icetime).

Ok, I'm only basing my proposal on what is presented on cap friendly. They present Sanheim as a RD. The Leafs would, as I suspect the Flyers would also, be averse to signing Simmonds long term at high cost. Of course, I could be wrong. Regardless of where Konecny and Kapanen fit, I'd consider it to be a nice debate to have, both are quality young players. Voracek, respectfully, I wish you well.

 

[Volica]

I wonder what a Boston/Leafs bidding war would look like. Neither would want the other to get him.

Doesn't Simmonds just look like a guy who'd wear black and yellow well? That's a glove-like fit for them. Same as Toronto in terms of fit, really any on the wings on the top 2 lines and he'd slide right in.

My real point was that, that's the type of players GMs gush about come playoff time. A guy who's going to score 25 goals, regardless, and is about as tough as they make them. The thought of, here's my first, isn't going to cut it with him. I can see up to 5-6 teams looking at his services come February.

 

[Tripod]

I'd like to acquire Hagg for our LD if Gardiner walks. I know he's not very good but he'd be our most physical D and gives us time to develop Sandin in peace.

Hagg is a polarizing guy...lol.

He gets overused by Hak for sure. One of our best posters @Appleyard posted how his and Provy's minutes were the hardest in the league when they were a pairing. Some will point to +/- to say that he always comes out on top despite those matchups. And he is on pace for 29 points despite not being an offensive guy. He gets pucks thru to the net which Hak's system is all about.

Others just say Hagg sucks and his points are flukes and his hits rarely mean anything. And he sucks.

I would be fine with trading him in the offseason. Morin is injured until February and likely gets eased in the rest of the year. But entering next year, should be good to go.

 

[Tripod]

Doesn't Simmonds just look like a guy who'd wear black and yellow well? That's a glove-like fit for them. Same as Toronto in terms of fit, really any on the wings on the top 2 lines and he'd slide right in.

My real point was that, that's the type of players GMs gush about come playoff time. A guy who's going to score 25 goals, regardless, and is about as tough as they make them. The thought of, here's my first, isn't going to cut it with him. I can see up to 5-6 teams looking at his services come February.

Agreed.

I said earlier in the thread that coach love, and GM's overvalue his "intangibles". I was watching the Sabres game and their announcers were gushing over him and how his fight with Oleksiak when facing Pitt was the turning point in the game.

Honestly, Simmonds biggest issues are himself. When he thinks he is better than he is, he sucks...lol. When he has the puck along the boards, making an easy smart pass to back into the cycle makes sense. Insead, he likes to try a blind spinning pass to the slot area that never works out. He needs to thank and play like a 4th liner instead of thinking he is a top 6 playmaker. Best thing that can happen, is for him to get hit early in the game and get him engaged.

 

[meefer]

@Tripod, you earlier suggested that AMac be waived. I'm pretty sure you'd think that he'd not be picked up by any team, given the $5 per...can you folks absorb the hit and bring a younger player into the fold?

 

[Tripod]

@Tripod, you earlier suggested that AMac be waived. I'm pretty sure you'd think that he'd not be picked up by any team, given the $5 per...can you folks absorb the hit and bring a younger player into the fold?

yeah easily.

Hextall did a great job of cleaning up the cap issues we had from Hartnell, Pronger, Vinny, etc... They have over 8 million in cap space right now and are removing:

Lehtera 4.7
Simmonds 3.975
Raffl 2.35
Weal 1.75

Of course with AMac, there could be a team that actually could want him next year if the Flyers retained 50%. After all, Manning was signed for 2 years at 2.25 per.

 

[StoneHands]

None of those packages even come close to Kapanen+1st+ for Simmonds.

I was more replying to your point of saying that teams will not give up a 1st let alone a player like Kapanen which implies that even a 1st is a stretch. My point was, teams get a 1st+ for rentals every single year when people here say they aren't worth more than a 2nd or 3rd. At the deadline players get more than their perceived value because teams know that not only will they not improve at the deadline without adding but leaving trades on the table allows another playoff team and possibly a rival to grab that player.

Regardless, the fact that Nash was on pace for 38 points and hadn't broken 40 points in 4 years but still brought in Spooner (paced for 57 points last year), a 2nd round pick from '16, and a 1st rounder isn't far off especially considering Simmonds is clearly better than Nash was at that point.

Also, Kapanen is not getting top PK minutes.

 

[meefer]

yeah easily.

Hextall did a great job of cleaning up the cap issues we had from Hartnell, Pronger, Vinny, etc... They have over 8 million in cap space right now and are removing:

Lehtera 4.7
Simmonds 3.975
Raffl 2.35
Weal 1.75

I appreciate the reply, but will ask the question and then bolt...gotta run. With Konecny, Provorov and Sanheim all needing to be signed, and as we saw with Nylander it's becoming a difficult area to determine what young players may be worth, do the Flyers believe they can tie up all three at the same time while not increasing their cap impact? I like all three, and would guess that at the minimum they will cost the Flyers at least the 12 mil that is being shedded by those you named. K = 5m/, P = 5.5m/ and S = 4-4.5m/...minimum 14 m for the three, not including your other requirements? Hey, it's the way of the world these days. Anyway, time to run. Cheers.

 

[Kamiccolo]

No dice. Im already selling low on Gritty at Matthews +.

Leafs will just wait until the offseason and then offersheet Gritty rather than pay that.

 

[Tripod]

I appreciate the reply, but will ask the question and then bolt...gotta run. With Konecny, Provorov and Sanheim all needing to be signed, and as we saw with Nylander it's becoming a difficult area to determine what young players may be worth, do the Flyers believe they can tie up all three at the same time while not increasing their cap impact? I like all three, and would guess that at the minimum they will cost the Flyers at least the 12 mil that is being shedded by those you named. K = 5m/, P = 5.5m/ and S = 4-4.5m/...minimum 14 m for the three, not including your other requirements? Hey, it's the way of the world these days. Anyway, time to run. Cheers.

Yup...those 3 will/should take a big chunk. But the Flyers have approx 35 million in cap space for next year. So they have lots of wiggle room.

And that's with AMac's 5 million fully on the books.

Lots of options.

 

[Starat327]

Leafs will just wait until the offseason and then offersheet Gritty rather than pay that.

Just be ready for my GM to use the 'revenge' offer sheet..cause that happens all the time.