TV: Game of Thrones | Season 8 (Final) | Part XIII -TV talk ONLY -NO Books, Spoilers, NO LEAKS

[Blackhawkswincup]

"The scales of a full grown dragon were harder than steel, and even those arrows that struck home seldom penetrated enough to do more than enrage the great beasts. But as Meraxes banked above the Hellholt a defender atop the castle's highest tower triggered a scorpion and a yard long iron bolt caught the Queen's dragon in the right eye. Meraxes did not die at once but came crashing to earth in mortal agony..."
Fire and Blood

"One dragon in recorded history has been brought down from the air by a projectile, and it was a one in a million shot. A mature dragon in the air is virtually invulnerable" -George R.R. Martin

Yet in books a magic horn brings down Dragons? LOL , And book readers bitch about how Dragons have died on show

Also if you had Dragons as so powerful and invulnerable it would be hard to accept that they dwindled to point of extinction level thru reign of Targs

By logic put forth the idea of Targ family ever losing power should have been absurd because they should have had numerous full grown Dragons

 

[McDNicks17]

The Queen of Ashes foreshadowing

Was digging around for old Dany quotes about burning cities to the ground (something she said a lot) and found this theory from a year ago.

It’s not perfect, but this guy was close to spot on with the dead being the red herring.

Obviously we still don’t know if Dany will go through with her violent sack of KL, but as far as telegraphing her potential heel turn. It’s all there.

At the end of the last episode, Dany finally sits on the Iron Throne and peels back her face to reveal she was Littlefinger all this time.

"He would see this country burn if he could be King of the ashes."

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Literally all of this has happened in the last, what, 6 or 7 episodes?

That article was pulling obscure references from Essos about burning ****. Her plan was always to spill the blood of those in power, I agree she has always had an instinct for violence, but it isn't out of the blue. Why is it an issue all of a sudden for Varys? To the common folk, she has always been fair and just.

Varys worked for the Mad King and was always a bit hesitant to trust Danaerys due to her being a Targaryen. He also sees Jon as being better fit to be a King (I tend to agree), with a better claim. Add in Dany talking about burning KL and it makes sense that he would put more faith in Jon. If he wants to serve the realm to the best of his ability, he would prefer a realm of peace. If Dany takes the Crown by burning everyone who opposes her, and people know about Jon's claim to the throne, there will be no peace.

 

[McDNicks17]

Dragons were deemed difficult to kill based on the last time they were used in battle... Which was a generation prior to this one? Longer? Weapons and their effectiveness and lethality evolve. What was once a challenge to conquer becomes less so because of technology and engineering.

I'm not sure if it's ever been established in the show or the books, but I saw a comment somewhere that said the scales of the dragons become stronger as they age.

Balerion was about 100 years old during the last conquest while Drogon and the boys are only about 8 years old(I think?), so that probably comes into play too.

 

[CupInSIX]

Between Varys, Davos and Gendry they should be able to slip in and out of Kings Landing to undermine Cersei's hold over the citizens (at the very least). Or did they seal off all the tunnels etc?

During the Blackwater episode Varys had a map with all the Targaryen tunnels for getting in and out during a seige. This was how he got Tyrion out (and presumably how they got him back in).

 

[ArGarBarGar]

It wasn't just wildfire that was issue

Stannis had no clue that Tywin and his forces were coming which would show he further made no efforts towards recon/scouting both on land and on sea

Also it would have made more sense for Stannis to land his troops away from city defenses and prepare a siege. Could have surrounded KL with ground troops while using his Navy to blockade the city from sea

Literally nobody scouts in this series. The only time we actually saw it was in season 1 and 2 when Robb's men found one hiding outside the camp and various forces were giving exposition to the whereabouts of different armies.

It's like with the loot train attack: it is a miniscule aspect of strategy in the series at this point.

Daenerys has been criticized plenty for not scouting ahead, but Stannis gets a free pass for his blunders on a regular occasion from Mannis fans especially. Stannis' plan was to fight a naval battle then land close to the walls to provide cover for his men. If he had scouted ahead it would have been obvious that Tyrion had no intention of fighting a naval battle, he was baiting him into a trap. Davos figured that out when they sailed in there, but it was too late.

Then those criticisms of her are stupid.

She should have been able to clearly see something like naval ships from her vantage point but the whole scouting thing has never been a significant factor.

 

[K Fleur]

Yet in books a magic horn brings down Dragons? LOL , And book readers ***** about how Dragons have died on show

Also if you had Dragons as so powerful and invulnerable it would be hard to accept that they dwindled to point of extinction level thru reign of Targs

By logic put forth the idea of Targ family ever losing power should have been absurd because they should have had numerous full grown Dragons

If you think that’s bad; There is supposedly another magic horn ”The Horn of Winter” that when blown can bring down The Wall in the north.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

If you think that’s bad; There is supposedly another magic horn ”The Horn of Winter” that when blown can bring down The Wall in the north.

Neither of which have been reliably demonstrated in the books.

 

[David Dennison]

Varys worked for the Mad King and was always a bit hesitant to trust Danaerys due to her being a Targaryen. He also sees Jon as being better fit to be a King (I tend to agree), with a better claim. Add in Dany talking about burning KL and it makes sense that he would put more faith in Jon. If he wants to serve the realm to the best of his ability, he would prefer a realm of peace. If Dany takes the Crown by burning everyone who opposes her, and people know about Jon's claim to the throne, there will be no peace.

But they were always gonna have to take Westeros by force, and Dany has never been violent towards the common folk. Like with the Tarlys, she burned them but everyone else got in line and were spared.

Jon technically has the better claim, but he has zero dragons and zero desire to rule. And there's no guarantee he could hold power with little to no army remaining, Dany at least has a dragon that could keep the peace. It just seems silly that Varys will risk it all on Dany v Jon when either would still probably be better than Cersei.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Yet in books a magic horn brings down Dragons? LOL

Binds them to the "master" of the horn. And there's no evidence it works or is supposed to do that or is anything other than a chlorine inhaler.

 

[WTG]

Yet in books a magic horn brings down Dragons? LOL , And book readers ***** about how Dragons have died on show

Also if you had Dragons as so powerful and invulnerable it would be hard to accept that they dwindled to point of extinction level thru reign of Targs

By logic put forth the idea of Targ family ever losing power should have been absurd because they should have had numerous full grown Dragons

Allegedly the horn can control dragons. Also, there is horn which can allegedly break the magic of the wall and bring it down. Key word, allegedly.

Also, all the dragons died out... They even said so on the show...

 

[Epictetus]

Euron killed a dragon

 

[Emperoreddy]

I would add, other advisors (Varys/Tyrion) are likely going to be conspiring against her, which probably sets her off a tad.

I am curious when Varys makes this known and starts getting into Jon’s ear

 

[Emperoreddy]

I'm not sure if it's ever been established in the show or the books, but I saw a comment somewhere that said the scales of the dragons become stronger as they age.

Balerion was about 100 years old during the last conquest while Drogon and the boys are only about 8 years old(I think?), so that probably comes into play too.

The show has never established it, and George only has in the books outside of ASOIAF.

Also as you noted Dany’s dragons are still very young compared to the biggest Targ dragons in history.

 

[WTG]

 

[Emperoreddy]

Are we meant to believe the Mad King’s Stores of wildfyre are still under the Red Keep?

 

[Osprey]

They built up the Night King to be near invincible and it didn't feel that way when Arya stabs him.

He did seem to suddenly be extremely vulnerable when it was convenient. It makes you wonder why they didn't come up with a plan to take advantage of that earlier, before they lost hundreds of friends and family in battle.

 

[WTG]

Are we meant to believe the Mad King’s Stores of wildfyre are still under the Red Keep?

Didn't they blow it when they blew up the sept?
Regardless, it's Dan and Dan. They'll write it in, they want another big boom scene. These are the guys that throw any sense away just to have a cool scene and wildfire makes a cool scene.

 

[Emperoreddy]

He did seem to suddenly be extremely vulnerable when it was convenient. It makes you wonder why they didn't come up with a plan to take advantage of that earlier, before they lost hundreds of friends and family in battle.

It was established Walkers could be one shot with dragon glass and Valerian steel. There was nothing out of the ordinary with that working on him.

 

[x Tame Impala]

It’s not exclusive to GoT, but I’m getting really sick of movie/show writers putting in cool scenes that can only exist because of poor writing decisions and plot holes.

The payoff of the cool scene is becoming less and less worth it when it comes at the cost of the plot.

 

[Osprey]

It was established Walkers could be one shot with dragon glass and Valerian steel. There was nothing out of the ordinary with that working on him.

That supports my point. If they knew that he could be killed that easily, it would've made sense to try to avoid a costly battle by killing him earlier.

 

[Emperoreddy]

That supports my point. If they knew that he could be killed that easily, it would've made sense to try to avoid a costly battle by killing him earlier.

How would you manage that without a battle?

 

[Vex]

How would you manage that without a battle?

Ramsay's few good men in the dead of night seasons ago. Duh.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Ramsay's few good men in the dead of night seasons ago. Duh.

Ahhh Ser Twenty of House Goodman

 

[chokei]

How would you manage that without a battle?

With quality writing.

At one point they even discussed that they would not be able to beat the NK and his army in an open battle iirc. In the end the NK was not killed in battle but they fought the battle nonetheless.

It's astonishing how the perception of D&D has changed over the seasons. I remember they got a lot of praise for the earlier seasons. People either got much more critical or the the quality has really dropped a bit.

I do think though that if certain things from the earlier seasons happened now they would be seen as lazy writing as well. Tywin deciding the blackwater battle or Melisandre giving birth to a shadow that kills a well guarded king.

But I think it's also fair to say that GoT clearly has lost some of it's glamour. The universe has gotten too small which makes it difficult to give certain plots the time they would need to develop properly, and then there's some obvious flaws (forgetting about the most powerful fleet in the world?).

However, Dany turning angry and showing signs of madness is not one of them. She always had this deeply rooted hate against the iron throne. But now she has no one left that talks some sense to her. Her friends are gone and her hand has failed several times to convince her. Dany attacking King's Landing full steam is not a heelturn, it was inevitable.