Confirmed with Link: Erne and Vrana file for Arbitration

[SirloinUB]

Nothing wrong with arbitration guys. Just part of the process. I wouldnt be surprised if both Erne and Vrana sign before Arb

 

[BinCookin]

In 5 years Cossa might be pushing for a starting job as a budding 23 year if we get lucky.

Right. 23 is really young for a goalie. Vasilevskiy pulled off a starting job at 23. That would be a huge win if Cossa is challenging for a starting job in 5 years.

I mean what is your point Oaf? We all know drafted kids take time to make the NHL. Goalies take the most time, Defense takes the second most time. Forwards make the NHL a little faster.

Its clear from your posts you question a lot of the decisions being made. That is your right and I welcome new points of view. But these posts are not providing a point of view. What would you like to do if you were the GM?

Do you want to compete with Buffalo for 1st overall pick? And compete with Arizona?

We could easily try to tank and end up with the 6th pick again.

Do you think Yzerman's trades are not going well?

I mean I am looking at our moves the last 1-2 years thinking, this is going amazingly well.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I mean what is your point Oaf? We all know drafted kids take time to make the NHL. Goalies take the most time, Defense takes the second most time. Forwards make the NHL a little faster.

Its clear from your posts you question a lot of the decisions being made. That is your right and I welcome new points of view. But these posts are not providing a point of view. What would you like to do if you were the GM?

Do you want to compete with Buffalo for 1st overall pick? And compete with Arizona?

We could easily try to tank and end up with the 6th pick again.

Do you think Yzerman's trades are not going well?

I mean I am looking at our moves the last 1-2 years thinking, this is going amazingly well.

I think the rebuild is going "okay". Fabs is alright. Perlini was a waste. Erne is alright. Seider looks promising. Raymond looks promising. Edvinsson? Who knows? Cossa? Who knows?
The Mantha trade might be good unless Vrana goes to the hearing. Then he will bolt for UFA payday. Bert will likely be gone. The Leddy trade is a head scratcher. Looks pretty dumb to me. I would have preferred,
Protect Cholowski. Trade for a pick
Not trade for Leddy save 2nd
Not trade up for Cossa pick 3 players
The Ned trade was a good move but then signing him for 2 years walks him to UFA and he's likely gone.
I see people talking like we're turning the corner because you know....Yzerman. I don't see us anywhere near turning the corner. We're in the first half of a rebuild. We have a few promising prospects. Some might bloom. Others will bust. Edvinsson has prime bust potential. Cossa too. How is this team turning the corner?

 

[jkutswings]

I think the rebuild is going "okay".

How is this team turning the corner?

Do you think there could have been a better approach to shedding all those bad contracts then? Or the overall number of draft picks acquired?

I think that considering the amount of dead weight this roster had a few years ago - that both Holland and Yzerman have done a very good job with Phase 1.
And that I like the overall stable of prospects Detroit has drafted. A few here and there I would've gone in another direction, but the basic strategy is a good one.

As for hoarding picks versus adding players, there needs to be at least SOME balance there. Sure, you want draft capital. But you also can't just ice an AHL team forever, unless you want any decent players to leave and become another Buffalo.

Yes, there's still a significant ways to go. But short of getting lucky with one of the draft lotteries...what could have jump started things any faster, and how far along do you think the Wings SHOULD be at the moment?

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Do you think there could have been a better approach to shedding all those bad contracts then? Or the overall number of draft picks acquired?

I think that considering the amount of dead weight this roster had a few years ago - that both Holland and Yzerman have done a very good job with Phase 1.
And that I like the overall stable of prospects Detroit has drafted. A few here and there I would've gone in another direction, but the basic strategy is a good one.

As for hoarding picks versus adding players, there needs to be at least SOME balance there. Sure, you want draft capital. But you also can't just ice an AHL team forever, unless you want any decent players to leave and become another Buffalo.

Yes, there's still a significant ways to go. But short of getting lucky with one of the draft lotteries...what could have jump started things any faster, and how far along do you think the Wings SHOULD be at the moment?

I think they should be roughly where they are. However if you are tearing the entire organization down and rebuilding I think you might want to emerge with some blue chip prospects. At least more than Seider and Raymond. Look at Colorado, Edmonton, Jersey, Toronto and even Buffalo. They all emerged with more than a couple hopeful wingers and a stud defenseman. We tanked the franchise for Raymond? Really? So now we are trafing assets for vet rentals and hoping elite players just fall out of the sky? Pius Suter is gonna lead us to the promise land?

I think Stevie is a smart guy but there's a lot more pain coming before any corner is turned. I doubt more than 2 or 3 players on this roster are around whrn and if this team contends again.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I doubt Yzerman lets Vrana go for nothing. If Vrana takes a 1 year arbitration deal, plays well but doesn't indicate that he's willing to extend during the year then trade him. Simple as that. And because he's an asset on an expiring deal that means he could be sold at a premium to a team that wants to load up during a playoff run. At worst he gets an AA return of 2 2nds. Maybe he gets a Nick Foligno return of a 1st. Maybe he gets us a B level prospect and a 2nd? Who knows? I don't think that Yzerman is going to sit on his hands and say, "Trades are hard! We kicked tires!" while a prime UFA walks on us.

Yeah. Assuming thos picks work out you are only 8 years from having a Vrana. How is that just fine?

 

[jkutswings]

Look at Colorado, Edmonton, Jersey, Toronto and even Buffalo.

Colorado I'll give you. But I'll take Detroit's future over every other team on that list.

Toronto and Edmonton took the high end talent they got and screwed up both the supporting cast and the cap structure. New Jersey and Buffalo, for all the talent they got in the lottery, still aren't leaving the basement anytime soon.

Would I be thrilled at one or more perennial all stars to be plopped down on top of this roster? Yes. But even if guys like Seider and Raymond never quite hit that level, I think Yzerman is shrewd enough to still build a contender through a combination of picks, trades, and free agency.

Five years from now, the Toronto's and Edmonton's of the league will still be coming up empty with early exits (or even restarting the process). I think Detroit will be well on their way up - with a longer window of contention - as they're on their way down with nothing to show for it.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Yeah. Assuming thos picks work out you are only 8 years from having a Vrana. How is that just fine?

Wait, are you advocating for us keeping Vrana because he's good now over the long development path/uncertainty of a pick or prospect? I thought you were firmly in the consolidate draft capital camp?

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Wait, are you advocating for us keeping Vrana because he's good now over the long development path/uncertainty of a pick or prospect? I thought you were firmly in the consolidate draft capital camp?

There's a difference in keeping a 25 year old quality player that you just traded your top goal scorer for vs trading draft capital for one year of 30 year old Nick Leddy. No?

 

[TheOctopusKid]

There's a difference in keeping a 25 year old quality player that you just traded your top goal scorer for vs trading draft capital for one year of 30 year old Nick Leddy. No?

100%. I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding or misrepresenting your critique of the rebuild.

 

[Retire91]

I didn't react negatively the way I used to when Yzerman traded the picks. I think why is because we almost had too many prospects. Isn't there a limit to how many prospects we can carry that we are at or close to?

The thing that changed for me is Yzerman's capability as a GM. When Holland had cap space and first/second round picks you were like, its only a matter of time before something stupid happens. I used to fly off the handle becuase nothing underscores you 'still' aren't rebuilding like trading your picks or signing mediocrity to 5 year contracts.

I think what is different is we collected too many picks for a prospect pool to carry. Yzerman felt he had the draft capitol to convert into other areas of need like some immediate stabilization of the roster which is what a lot of last season's complaining was about.

I don't think any GM can please all fans but I personally feel he is making great moves on a good timeline and don't see room for critisism at this time. I am suprising even myself that I was okay with the draft pick trades. But I am.

 

[jkutswings]

I don't think any GM can please all fans but I personally feel he is making great moves on a good timeline and don't see room for critisism at this time. I am suprising even myself that I was okay with the draft pick trades. But I am.

Yep. I mean, it's certainly POSSIBLE that Leddy is a dud here, and that the Islanders draft a very good player with that second rounder. But you can only carry so many prospects, and the average second rounder probably plays at the bottom of the roster or even washes out altogether, versus getting even one season of a decent PMD (who probably returns a better pick at the deadline anyway).

 

[Henkka]

Yep. I mean, it's certainly POSSIBLE that Leddy is a dud here, and that the Islanders draft a very good player with that second rounder. But you can only carry so many prospects, and the average second rounder probably plays at the bottom of the roster or even washes out altogether, versus getting even one season of a decent PMD (who probably returns a better pick at the deadline anyway).

Islanders drafted Aatu Räty with that pick and he just scored 6+8=14 in 6 WJSS games.

I'm not crying after that pick, more of pissed of that we didn't use earlier picks for Räty.

I'm fine that we got Leddy that cheap.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I didn't react negatively the way I used to when Yzerman traded the picks. I think why is because we almost had too many prospects. Isn't there a limit to how many prospects we can carry that we are at or close to?

The thing that changed for me is Yzerman's capability as a GM. When Holland had cap space and first/second round picks you were like, its only a matter of time before something stupid happens. I used to fly off the handle becuase nothing underscores you 'still' aren't rebuilding like trading your picks or signing mediocrity to 5 year contracts.

I think what is different is we collected too many picks for a prospect pool to carry. Yzerman felt he had the draft capitol to convert into other areas of need like some immediate stabilization of the roster which is what a lot of last season's complaining was about.

I don't think any GM can please all fans but I personally feel he is making great moves on a good timeline and don't see room for critisism at this time. I am suprising even myself that I was okay with the draft pick trades. But I am.

If Holland said "We have Larkin, Zadina, Seider, Hronek, Lindstrom, Smith, Ras, one year of Bert/Vrana Possibly Raymond/Berggran/Edvinsson/Cossa" would you be okay with trading draft capitol for veteran rentals? Or would you think we still needed high end players?

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Yep. I mean, it's certainly POSSIBLE that Leddy is a dud here, and that the Islanders draft a very good player with that second rounder. But you can only carry so many prospects, and the average second rounder probably plays at the bottom of the roster or even washes out altogether, versus getting even one season of a decent PMD (who probably returns a better pick at the deadline anyway).

You really think rental Leddy gets you a first round pick?

 

[MBH]

You really think rental Leddy gets you a first round pick?

Really doubt it.
Basically, Leddy's a placeholder.
Gives you NHL-level depth for a year and then you trade him for the second you ate.

 

[jkutswings]

If Holland said "We have Larkin, Zadina, Seider, Hronek, Lindstrom, Smith, Ras, one year of Bert/Vrana Possibly Raymond/Berggran/Edvinsson/Cossa" would you be okay with trading draft capitol for veteran rentals? Or would you think we still needed high end players?

You're making this an EITHER/OR when it's not.

I would be downright incensed if Yzerman said he was completely done with draft capital and planned to acquire as many veterans as possible. That's shortcutting the rebuild very prematurely, and would likely end in disaster.

But doing it once in a blue moon is a very different thing. The Leddy trade is one aspect of a collection of moves - gaining assets for Mantha, shedding assets for Nedeljkovic and Cossa - that still has a net trend to youth and talent.

There's a lot of gray in between the black and white. And yes, if he's even halfway decent, I see a solid chance to get a first rounder for Leddy at the deadline.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Islanders drafted Aatu Räty with that pick and he just scored 6+8=14 in 6 WJSS games.

I'm not crying after that pick, more of pissed of that we didn't use earlier picks for Räty.

I'm fine that we got Leddy that cheap.

I'm inclined to agree with Raty @ 52nd, but also weigh in that 31 other GM's passed on him til that point.

Dobber's profile: (you can't ask for much better than that, certainly not outside of top3)

"Fantasy Summary"

"A play-driving offensive center who plays a solid 200-foot game. A dual-threat because he can both make plays and finish them. Great skating ability combined with high-end puck-skills makes him a threat all over the ice. Needs to work on his consistency and discipline. Projects to become a very good number one center. A legitimate threat to go first overall in the 2021 NHL Entry Draft."

...this makes me wish we picked him, but I trust Yzerman more. also there's this:

& this:

& PNHLe Calculations here: https://www.nhlrankking.com/PNHLe.htm

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I'm inclined to agree with Raty @ 52nd, but also weigh in that 31 other GM's passed on him til that point.

Dobber's profile: (you can't ask for much better than that, certainly not outside of top3)

"Fantasy Summary"

"A play-driving offensive center who plays a solid 200-foot game. A dual-threat because he can both make plays and finish them. Great skating ability combined with high-end puck-skills makes him a threat all over the ice. Needs to work on his consistency and discipline. Projects to become a very good number one center. A legitimate threat to go first overall in the 2021 NHL Entry Draft."

...this makes me wish we picked him, but I trust Yzerman more. also there's this:

View attachment 459146


& this:

View attachment 459147

& PNHLe Calculations here: https://www.nhlrankking.com/PNHLe.htm

It's one tournament. And it's also a kind of nothing tournament. Raty wilted under pressure during the season in his draft year and underperformed in his D-1 year. If he can carry over his strong play from the WJSS back to Finland then I might change my tune on the guy.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

It's one tournament. And it's also a kind of nothing tournament. Raty wilted under pressure during the season in his draft year and underperformed in his D-1 year. If he can carry over his strong play from the WJSS back to Finland then I might change my tune on the guy.

I offered pros & cons, if you'll notice the NHLPe, pacing for 3rd liner as of now...so it's not looking like a bad decision. But based on just the profile above it, yikes. Likely 1C to pacing for 3rd is a huge swing.

 

[Bench]

Look at Colorado, Edmonton, Jersey, Toronto and even Buffalo. They all emerged with more than a couple hopeful wingers and a stud defenseman.

Yes, look at them. What do they have in common? They all won the lottery. Some multiple times.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

It's one tournament. And it's also a kind of nothing tournament. Raty wilted under pressure during the season in his draft year and underperformed in his D-1 year. If he can carry over his strong play from the WJSS back to Finland then I might change my tune on the guy.

Which has more upside? Him or 1 year of Nick Leddy?

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Which has more upside? Him or 1 year of Nick Leddy?

You are a broken record, dude.

 

[Retire91]

If Holland said "We have Larkin, Zadina, Seider, Hronek, Lindstrom, Smith, Ras, one year of Bert/Vrana Possibly Raymond/Berggran/Edvinsson/Cossa" would you be okay with trading draft capital for veteran rentals? Or would you think we still needed high end players?

I don't really see it that way. I think Yzerman is bringing in some stabilization for the struggling D. He didn't want to go through another season without the ability to break out of our own zone or have a powerplay. I am a firm believer that a lot of injuries happen when we are on the defensive side of broken plays and the bleeding needed to stop. The trade literally pushed every one of our D down the depth chart and gave us an average to above-average PP QB.

The fan base needs to realize something. Just because we have people playing in first line roles doesn't mean they are first line players. This team is getting owned

I am usually the most vocal critic of bringing vets into a rebuild but I understand this one. Leddy's old for the rebuild be he is not Alfredson old and this isn't anywhere near 16 games of Legwand territory. I think this trade needs some room to breathe.

Heck Yzerman even traded up this draft to grab his guy this is something I have been red-faced screaming about all of Holland's trade downs. We finally have a GM trading up. I mean fricking hallaluea!

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Yes, look at them. What do they have in common? They all won the lottery. Some multiple times.

Right. So we didn't and we are moving on to trading for vets even though the cupboards are full of paper plates and left over birthday party napkins. We essentially went all in on Edvinsson and Cossa and from here we simply ascend! We have one potential 1st line player for a contending team and that's still a maybe. We are on a trajectory straight for the middle.