Confirmed with Link: Erne and Vrana file for Arbitration

[jkutswings]

I certainly hope you're right but I think that's extremely optimistic.

I think once the Seiders and Raymonds of the organization get enough experience to settle in, it's just expecting good players to do what they're paid to do. And it's assuming there will be a trade or free agent addition here and there to compliment the organic growth.

But it'll be fun to finally watch the "rate of growth" instead of the bottoming out process.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I think once the Seiders and Raymonds of the organization get enough experience to settle in, it's just expecting good players to do what they're paid to do. And it's assuming there will be a trade or free agent addition here and there to compliment the organic growth.

But it'll be fun to finally watch the "rate of growth" instead of the bottoming out process.

I get it. I just don't see enough good players and I think the timeline for getting needed experience is longer.
I used the Tampa example earlier. Yzerman began building with Hedman and Stamkos already in place. 10 years later they won the cup.
The Wings had the legendary 1989 draft while already having Yzerman in the system. 8 years later they finally won.

 

[Retire91]

I think people are just concerned that one of our top assets in the system could get awarded a deal that takes him straight to UFA and also the notion that filing for arbitration could be (and I stress 'could' it's not a certainty) that he is not interested in the Yzerplan.

Losing Vrana for nothing would seriously downscale the Mantha trade which as it sits right now was a pretty awesome trade.

It's not a small thing to worry about. There is a worst case here that I think we all hope doesn't happen. And a short arbitration deal is one of the precursors to that worst case. But admintadly there are more than a handful of senarios that work out great. Not all doom and gloom just an hmmm? when I saw arbitration.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I think people are just concerned that one of our top assets in the system could get awarded a deal that takes him straight to UFA and also the notion that filing for arbitration could be (and I stress 'could' it's not a certainty) that he is not interested in the Yzerplan.

Losing Vrana for nothing would seriously downscale the Mantha trade which as it sits right now was a pretty awesome trade.

It's not a small thing to worry about. There is a worst case here that I think we all hope doesn't happen. And a short arbitration deal is one of the precursors to that worst case. But admintadly there are more than a handful of senarios that work out great. Not all doom and gloom just an hmmm? when I saw arbitration.

I doubt Yzerman lets Vrana go for nothing. If Vrana takes a 1 year arbitration deal, plays well but doesn't indicate that he's willing to extend during the year then trade him. Simple as that. And because he's an asset on an expiring deal that means he could be sold at a premium to a team that wants to load up during a playoff run. At worst he gets an AA return of 2 2nds. Maybe he gets a Nick Foligno return of a 1st. Maybe he gets us a B level prospect and a 2nd? Who knows? I don't think that Yzerman is going to sit on his hands and say, "Trades are hard! We kicked tires!" while a prime UFA walks on us.

 

[PullHard]

Vrana under 6 and Erne 3.5 I think is reasonable

??

These are both ~$1-1.5M too high on AAV, easily

edit: after reading through this thread lilidk's post seems tame, omg what is happening on this board?

 

[deca guard]

Come on, this writing style is so fmailiar. What account were you before it was banned. I promise, if you DM me, I won't tell anyone.

you must be refering to the oaf , i couldnt take any more ' crying for attention ' by yesterday so put on ignore already

 

[Konnan511]

you must be refering to the oaf , i couldnt take any more ' crying for attention ' by yesterday so put on ignore already

That obvious huh? I swear I've seen that exact writing style and also had them blocked before they created this new name. I have my suspicions on who it is.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I get it. I just don't see enough good players and I think the timeline for getting needed experience is longer.
I used the Tampa example earlier. Yzerman began building with Hedman and Stamkos already in place. 10 years later they won the cup.
The Wings had the legendary 1989 draft while already having Yzerman in the system. 8 years later they finally won.

Forgetting that Tampa was in the Cup Final in 2015, huh? Forgetting that they were a 62 win team 3 years ago and have won two in a row.

Starting in 2014-2015

Cup Final
Conference Final
Missed Playoffs
Conference Final
First round sweep after 62 win season (and the first round sweep was being shell-shocked after dropping game 1 after the 3-0 lead they jumped to)
Cup
Cup

So, 4 years after he got there, 5 of 7 years they make the Conference finals or better.

So, I mean, enjoy your technically correct, but bad faith argument.

 

[lilidk]

??

These are both ~$1-1.5M too high on AAV, easily

edit: after reading through this thread lilidk's post seems tame, omg what is happening on this board?

Agree about Erne, it's too much for him , my mistake, but Vrana under 6 for about 5 years is good price.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think once the Seiders and Raymonds of the organization get enough experience to settle in, it's just expecting good players to do what they're paid to do. And it's assuming there will be a trade or free agent addition here and there to compliment the organic growth.

But it'll be fun to finally watch the "rate of growth" instead of the bottoming out process.

Yes, the idea for rebuilding is that you get yourself into the conversation of being a competitor. Not "get in the playoffs and anything can happen", mind you, but if your goal is to be the preeminent team in hockey, then yeah, that'll take some time.

Hell, they've stalled out because they did a bad job constructing the roster (and had some rotten luck), but I would call Toronto's rebuild a success. Them being unable to win a playoff round is due to their current missteps. They don't run out and grab Tavares unnecessarily, and they have the money to build up their lineup, don't have to deal Kadri for a bad return.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Agree about Erne, it's too much for him , my mistake, but Vrana under 6 for about 5 years is good price.

Yes, for 5 years, 6M would be a great value for Vrana. He's undoubtedly asking like 6.5 for the arb award, so to buy up 3 UFA years, that would be a good value.

 

[BinCookin]

Many solid 2nd line players signed for 5-6M this FA.

I honestly think 5-5.25 is the arbitration award for Vrana. I do not think it comes out much higher than that.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Forgetting that Tampa was in the Cup Final in 2015, huh? Forgetting that they were a 62 win team 3 years ago and have won two in a row.

Starting in 2014-2015

Cup Final
Conference Final
Missed Playoffs
Conference Final
First round sweep after 62 win season (and the first round sweep was being shell-shocked after dropping game 1 after the 3-0 lead they jumped to)
Cup
Cup

So, 4 years after he got there, 5 of 7 years they make the Conference finals or better.

So, I mean, enjoy your technically correct, but bad faith argument.

Yzerman obviously inherited a ton of assets when he took over Tampa and still in 8 years never got over the hump. He didn't start here with nearly the assets. We're a LONG way from contending. We haven't even iced a single player that he drafted yet. When we do they will need time for development. Unless Holland left a contending team of prospects in the cupboard we're 7-10 years away.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yzerman obviously inherited a ton of assets when he took over Tampa and still in 8 years never got over the hump. He didn't start here with nearly the assets. We're a LONG way from contending. We haven't even iced a single player that he drafted yet. When we do they will need time for development. Unless Holland left a contending team of prospects in the cupboard we're 7-10 years away.

You’re not talking about competing. You’re talking about, if everything goes right, being the best team in hockey. That’s why I’m ignoring you. I’ve completely lost patience with people who want to piss in everyone’s Cheerios. Do something better with your life than being a Debbie downer

 

[SirKillalot]

I don't mind arbitration filings as during that time, they aren't allowed to negotiate with other teams.
It's going to end up reasonable.

 

[jkutswings]

We're a LONG way from contending.

Contending <> Perennial Favorite. Win 8 playoff games and you're up to your ears in contention. 4-5 years from now, not only will Detroit be much improved, but the Tampa's of the world will be over the hill.

 

[Retire91]

I can tell you what I am looking forward to is competitive hockey. I don't need a cup but what I am looking forward to is making the playoffs and not knowing its going to be a complete embarrassment and another wasted season just to preserve the streak. But I can wait so that it can be done carefully.

I think Toronto is a relevant example sure there is frustration but they have a competitive roster and dynamic players. We haven't had that pretty much since Daytsuk retired and we went downhill in a major way long before that when Lidstrom retired.

Honestly I think the last time I even remember feeling a sense of sustained optimism and excitement was the Nyquivst explosion. Been surviving on table scraps like landing Mrazek after Juniors and Jurco's youtube video. It feels incredible to see a tangibly good roster coming together.

 

[Henkka]

I can tell you what I am looking forward to is competitive hockey. I don't need a cup but what I am looking forward to is making the playoffs and not knowing its going to be a complete embarrassment and another wasted season just to preserve the streak. But I can wait so that it can be done carefully.

I think Toronto is a relevant example sure there is frustration but they have a competitive roster and dynamic players. We haven't had that pretty much since Daytsuk retired and we went downhill in a major way long before that when Lidstrom retired.

Honestly I think the last time I even remember feeling a sense of sustained optimism and excitement was the Nyquivst explosion. Been surviving on table scraps like landing Mrazek after Juniors and Jurco's youtube video. It feels incredible to see a tangibly good roster coming together.

Pretty much this.

Also it seems that Yzerman sees this "building just better" -vision as a better long-term plan than any kind of tanking. Other people desperately think, that we have to get an Elite center through tanking and don't have any other idea for that solution to be fixed.

But there's many. There's the trade route. Yzerman is just superior on trades. Even Jim Nill was able to trade for Seguin -those scenarios will happen. You don't get 1C from UFA, but trades happen all the time, thanks to tight cap situations, or players just wanting to move (O'Reilly). It doesn't have to be Shane Wright, Lambert or Conor Bedard to save the day. It still could be, we will have small chances for also them even though building for success, but we will not tank for those.

We'll build just good hockey product, which will start winning and becoming a playoff team without that Elite guy. Cap can be used smarter for another positions. You have talented and expensive centers, you lose on some other spots. You can build on those other spots.

But some day, some team, somewhere, is at cap problems with their own Center, and Yzerman goes and pulls the trade, because he has the healthiest cap structure on whole NHL at that point.

He is creating the most ideal situation for a big fish to be catched. And then we just wait for the big fish - and catch it.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Contending <> Perennial Favorite. Win 8 playoff games and you're up to your ears in contention. 4-5 years from now, not only will Detroit be much improved, but the Tampa's of the world will be over the hill.

In 5 years Cossa might be pushing for a starting job as a budding 23 year if we get lucky.

 

[Frk It]

In 5 years Cossa might be pushing for a starting job as a budding 23 year if we get lucky.

Craig Button has said both of the top goalies in the 2021 draft are not that far away from being in the NHL.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Pretty much this.

Also it seems that Yzerman sees this "building just better" -vision as a better long-term plan than any kind of tanking. Other people desperately think, that we have to get an Elite center through tanking and don't have any other idea for that solution to be fixed.

But there's many. There's the trade route. Yzerman is just superior on trades. Even Jim Nill was able to trade for Seguin -those scenarios will happen. You don't get 1C from UFA, but trades happen all the time, thanks to tight cap situations, or players just wanting to move (O'Reilly). It doesn't have to be Shane Wright, Lambert or Conor Bedard to save the day. It still could be, we will have small chances for also them even though building for success, but we will not tank for those.

We'll build just good hockey product, which will start winning and becoming a playoff team without that Elite guy. Cap can be used smarter for another positions. You have talented and expensive centers, you lose on some other spots. You can build on those other spots.

But some day, some team, somewhere, is at cap problems with their own Center, and Yzerman goes and pulls the trade, because he has the healthiest cap structure on whole NHL at that point.

He is creating the most ideal situation for a big fish to be catched. And then we just wait for the big fish - and catch it.

Yeah once every 10 years or so a Seguin or Tavares gets traded. Then when you have secured a star center you can build around him.

 

[Bench]

Craig Button has said both of the top goalies in the 2021 draft are not that far away from being in the NHL.

Cossa has another year in the WHL, right? After that they'll give him at least a year in the AHL, unless they are truly desperate.

So I'd pencil him into taking on NHL tandem duties, and potentially starting at points, in year 3 if everything is going well. Of course it could take 5 years, but I don't know why anyone would anticipate that as the timeline for such a blue chip goalie.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Craig Button has said both of the top goalies in the 2021 draft are not that far away from being in the NHL.

Right. 23 is really young for a goalie. Vasilevskiy pulled off a starting job at 23. That would be a huge win if Cossa is challenging for a starting job in 5 years.

 

[Henkka]

Right. 23 is really young for a goalie. Vasilevskiy pulled off a starting job at 23. That would be a huge win if Cossa is challenging for a starting job in 5 years.

Just plan it as Nedeljkovic as the starter for 3 years after Greiss and Cossa backing him up.

2021-22, Greiss + Nedeljkovic
2022-23, Nedeljkovic + VETERAN /maybe Cossa
2023-24, Nedeljkovic + Cossa
2024-25, Nedeljkovic + Cossa (Nedelkovic is 29 year-old in here)
2025-26, Cossa as starter at earliest.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Just plan it as Nedeljkovic as the starter for 3 years after Greiss and Cossa backing him up.

2021-22, Greiss + Nedeljkovic
2022-23, Nedeljkovic + VETERAN /maybe Cossa
2023-24, Nedeljkovic + Cossa
2024-25, Nedeljkovic + Cossa (Nedelkovic is 29 year-old in here)
2025-26, Cossa as starter at earliest.

Nedelkovic is UFA in 2 years. There's no chance Yzerman pays him if he continues to play like his most recent stint. He will definitely walk for a long term deal. By that point most likely Bert, Vrana and Leddy are gone. We will be building around a defenseman and a couple/few wingers. Larkin will be 29/30.