Confirmed with Link: Erne and Vrana file for Arbitration

[The Zetterberg Era]

He looks good playing against his peers, but not against grown men. Only a handful of drafted players played in a men's league, I think he dropped more than he should have.

That or pro players take away a lot of what he does well anyway. Because they didn't take him last year, we didn't see if he beat up on his age group as usual. What Raty does in Liiga will be telling. I still had him in my first round, so I didn't get nearly as down on him as most. Plenty of guys have beat up this summer tournament to return more to what the NHL scouts projected them as in the long-run.

But hey no big deal, if he rebounds in Liiga, we might just ask for him as part of our package for Bert or Hronek when the Islanders come calling for their cup run, along with the first and some other + if we really want a crack.

 

[lilidk]

Leddy will sign a long term deal elsewhere. There's no way Yzerman will give him 6-7 years but somebody will for sure. He will make another 25-30 million and win somewhere else. Why would he sign short term for less to lose here?

Kids need mentor, even Hronek, I don't think Staal is one , should be gone next season, DD, I don't know if he could still play hockey. Johansson and Viro is coming, someone needs to help them and if it's not Leddy then some one else. I believe Yzerman get him and planning to keep him for like 5 more years.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Kucherov was #58. You can't win if you don't play.

Svechnikov was 19th. So was Kindl.
Cholowski was 20th.
Sheahan was 21st.

I'm not sure what this game is but I wanna play.

 

[jkutswings]

1 year of Nick Leddy. Because if we get a defense that can actually get the puck to guys in transition, you can see several players get better. You can see that Larkin isn't a 30 point C and that he's really a low end 1C, optimal badass 2C instead of "hope he's a 2C". Zadina, Raymond, Berggren, Rasmussen, Bertuzzi, Vrana? If Leddy and Seider can come in and the Wings can have a system where they don't have to collapse into a 1-2-2 to not get assblasted every game... I think that would be worth one hell of a lot more than the <10% Aatu Raty is the guy he was thought to be.

Totally agree, and I'd like to expand on this. Pardon the gross exaggeration to make a point (even though it's one that you and others have referenced before).

Take Connor McDavid and put him on the worst high school team you an find. Now have that roster go against one of the better NHL teams.

Odds are good that Connor isn't going to have the greatest game. He might even look horrendous, considering that his 5 opponents can essentially just smother him and ignore all of his teammates. But that's obviously not a fair evaluation of the player's talent.

Now look at Detroit's roster. If the kids that are coming up have absolutely no support system, and are constantly getting buried out there...how accurately can anybody really scrutinize them, when they don't even have a halfway competent environment to begin with?

That's how I view the Leddy trade. It's helping to upgrade the environment for the kids to grow up in, from downright horrendous to (hopefully) somewhat tolerable. And I most definitely view that as more valuable than a second round draft pick.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Svechnikov was 19th. So was Kindl.
Cholowski was 20th.
Sheahan was 21st.

I'm not sure what this game is but I wanna play.

Connoly was 3rd and Koekkoek was 10th
Sadly Yzerman has never drafted a star in the top 10.

 

[Henkka]

Connoly was 3rd and Koekkoek was 10th
Sadly Yzerman has never drafted a star in the top 10.

Except 2019.

You must hate that.

 

[Gniwder]

Svechnikov was 19th. So was Kindl.
Cholowski was 20th.
Sheahan was 21st.

I'm not sure what this game is but I wanna play.

I wanna play too...

Kienan was 187th
Palat was 208th

WHat do I win?

 

[Gniwder]

That or pro players take away a lot of what he does well anyway.

You could say that about most draft prospects, probably about ten players in each draft that did well respectably in a pro league.

Look at Zadina, a #6 pick that still can't handle pro defense.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

I know man. I'm simply in favor of more kicks at the can and closer to the top. The Leddy deal doesn't get us either. If next year is such a great year for centers I would rather tough out another brutal year than go searching for Pastrnak as Yzerman suggested the other day. We really don't have much to show for the horror of the last few seasons.

That's fair. I would rather us be loaded with some top flight C's in the pipeline but sometimes you play the cards that you are dealt. I would be feeling very different if Byfield or Stuetzle were sitting there at 4 and we still chose Raymond over them. But both of those guys were gone in 2020; and in 2021 - all the top C's (which were questionable at best beyond Berniers) were all taken as well. I get it that you want a reward for all this tanking - we all do. But it's not the Wings fault that they aren't getting Crosby, Eichel, McDavid, level talent. Those guys haven't been in the last three drafts and we haven't had the lottery luck to get a swing even at the Top C prospects.

If anything, the Wings have done the best with what they've gotten. Mid Top 10 picks, without clear elite C prospects - they are literally defaulting the 2nd most valuable position we could hope to have - big, mobile, defenseman. They are taking literally the highest ceiling, arguably as impactful as an elite C, prospects that they can get a hold of in 6'4+ two-way defenseman because I think the team recognizes the same thing you do: We need more talent. Period. And Elite talent. Except these drafts haven't really been oozing it and the ping pong balls aren't bouncing our way.

I think the depth of our problem and how bad our franchise was in three years ago is being overlooked here. I think we do actually have quite a bit to show for the horror show of the last three years. We're out from underneath numerous boat anchor contracts. Our playing time on the ice isn't being eaten up by the broken bodies of Holland's last ditch efforts. We went from a capped team under numerous multiyear contracts to having more financial flex than anyone in the league. That means something. The Wings have had over 31 picks over the last three years. That's a ton of kicks at the can. And I know we're really feeling the lack of an elite C Prospect - but the Wings pipeline was worse for Defense, which historically take longer to develop than forwards. At least with Holland - we had some players and prospects up front: Larkin, Bertuzzi, Zadina, Mantha, Rasmussen, (Svechnikov), Smith, Veleno, Berggren. That did get some hits in there. It was not all bad. Defense? Utter wasteland. You can argue that there are pieces in that forward group - 2C, Top 6 Wingers, etc. On Defense - you had Hronek. Cholowski. Lindstrom. Period. That was it. Full Stop. Goalie was a mess as well. Literally Pertuzelli. Now we have the goalie for our next three years and potentially the goalie for the next 10 after that.

No matter what we do, we aren't finishing below BUF, ARZ, CLB, and OTT probably as well). And Leddy or no Leddy, competent goaltending or not, we're going to be a bottom 10 team but probably not a bottom 3. So we're going to go through another brutal year and we're going to go searching for a Pastrnak next year; like we have tried for the last couple of years with 2nd and 3rd round Center picks. The problem with that is those 2nd Rd prospects becoming a perennial All-Star Cs, is pretty slim, like "don't count on it" slim. So I don't really get mad when they burn a 2nd for adding a good defenseman who can bring a lot to the table in our player's development and boost morale a bit, fill a hole, and truly not really hurt our lotto all that much.

To say we have nothing to show for the last three years - I would say we have a lot to show for the last three years.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I hate this dipshit Ricky Bobby mentality. Like, if you're not the best team in the league, you might as well just fold it up. That's ridiculous.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Except 2019.

You must hate that.

I meant stars in the NHL. Not the minor, minor leagues. There is the potential that with a little luck Seider is a pretty good NHL defenseman 3 years from now though.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I hate this dipshit Ricky Bobby mentality. Like, if you're not the best team in the league, you might as well just fold it up. That's ridiculous.

I hate tanking to the point of being the most embarrasing team in the NHL and still not having a franchise player in the entire system. But hey at least we have the cap space to rent Nick Leddy as we embark on the eternal search for David Pastrnak.

 

[izlez]

I meant stars in the NHL. Not the minor, minor leagues. There is the potential that with a little luck Seider is a pretty good NHL defenseman 3 years from now though.

Ahh yes, just like Cale Makar is just starting to look like he might be on the verge of maybe having a chance of breaking out into a halfway decent player this year.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Ahh yes, just like Cale Makar is just starting to look like he might be on the verge of maybe having a chance of breaking out into a halfway decent player this year.

We don't have a Cale Makar in our system. Seider making the team though probable isn't a certainty.

 

[izlez]

We don't have a Cale Makar in our system. Seider making the team though probable isn't a certainty.

I mean, Makar played in a more "minor" league, was generally lower rated than Seider is before entering the league, and doesn't have the NHL size Seider does.

But yeah, makes sense to assume Seider is still 3 years away from being kind of okay.


EDIT: The rankings I dug up on Makar were from 2018 when it should have been 2019, so I was probably wrong in saying "generally lower rated than Seider". I haven't found 2019 lists yet, but he probably jumped up a lot

 

[deca guard]

That's fair. I would rather us be loaded with some top flight C's in the pipeline but sometimes you play the cards that you are dealt. I would be feeling very different if Byfield or Stuetzle were sitting there at 4 and we still chose Raymond over them. But both of those guys were gone in 2020; and in 2021 - all the top C's (which were questionable at best beyond Berniers) were all taken as well. I get it that you want a reward for all this tanking - we all do. But it's not the Wings fault that they aren't getting Crosby, Eichel, McDavid, level talent. Those guys haven't been in the last three drafts and we haven't had the lottery luck to get a swing even at the Top C prospects.

If anything, the Wings have done the best with what they've gotten. Mid Top 10 picks, without clear elite C prospects - they are literally defaulting the 2nd most valuable position we could hope to have - big, mobile, defenseman. They are taking literally the highest ceiling, arguably as impactful as an elite C, prospects that they can get a hold of in 6'4+ two-way defenseman because I think the team recognizes the same thing you do: We need more talent. Period. And Elite talent. Except these drafts haven't really been oozing it and the ping pong balls aren't bouncing our way.

I think the depth of our problem and how bad our franchise was in three years ago is being overlooked here. I think we do actually have quite a bit to show for the horror show of the last three years. We're out from underneath numerous boat anchor contracts. Our playing time on the ice isn't being eaten up by the broken bodies of Holland's last ditch efforts. We went from a capped team under numerous multiyear contracts to having more financial flex than anyone in the league. That means something. The Wings have had over 31 picks over the last three years. That's a ton of kicks at the can. And I know we're really feeling the lack of an elite C Prospect - but the Wings pipeline was worse for Defense, which historically take longer to develop than forwards. At least with Holland - we had some players and prospects up front: Larkin, Bertuzzi, Zadina, Mantha, Rasmussen, (Svechnikov), Smith, Veleno, Berggren. That did get some hits in there. It was not all bad. Defense? Utter wasteland. You can argue that there are pieces in that forward group - 2C, Top 6 Wingers, etc. On Defense - you had Hronek. Cholowski. Lindstrom. Period. That was it. Full Stop. Goalie was a mess as well. Literally Pertuzelli. Now we have the goalie for our next three years and potentially the goalie for the next 10 after that.

No matter what we do, we aren't finishing below BUF, ARZ, CLB, and OTT probably as well). And Leddy or no Leddy, competent goaltending or not, we're going to be a bottom 10 team but probably not a bottom 3. So we're going to go through another brutal year and we're going to go searching for a Pastrnak next year; like we have tried for the last couple of years with 2nd and 3rd round Center picks. The problem with that is those 2nd Rd prospects becoming a perennial All-Star Cs, is pretty slim, like "don't count on it" slim. So I don't really get mad when they burn a 2nd for adding a good defenseman who can bring a lot to the table in our player's development and boost morale a bit, fill a hole, and truly not really hurt our lotto all that much.

To say we have nothing to show for the last three years - I would say we have a lot to show for the last three years.

lots of good points tok . and if my choices were average defense with top flight centers , or average centers with top flight defense i take the defense . then i bring in good skating wingers that can haul the mail and dish the sauce thusly doing most of the work usually done by centers . then i go with good sized hard working centers that take on the piano movers job . this change away from the established centerman as play maker strategy lessens my need to aquire talented centers , and strikes fear in the heart of my opponants when i amass 7 great skating wingers (the 8th is a cop) for my ' hive of bee's ' strategy . these type wingers that are way easier to aquire than the top flight centermen . thats what the ' bc sage ' is currently doing . i cant believe after he went seider - tuomisty , he then goes gullfoxi - boomer . brings back the days of robinson - savard - langway . our d IS STACKED !

 

[Hen Kolland]

You'd think people would eventually just stop choosing to be wrong over and over and over again. But man, I guess not

 

[Retire91]

Totally agree, and I'd like to expand on this. Pardon the gross exaggeration to make a point (even though it's one that you and others have referenced before).

Take Connor McDavid and put him on the worst high school team you an find. Now have that roster go against one of the better NHL teams.

Odds are good that Connor isn't going to have the greatest game. He might even look horrendous, considering that his 5 opponents can essentially just smother him and ignore all of his teammates. But that's obviously not a fair evaluation of the player's talent.

Now look at Detroit's roster. If the kids that are coming up have absolutely no support system, and are constantly getting buried out there...how accurately can anybody really scrutinize them, when they don't even have a halfway competent environment to begin with?

That's how I view the Leddy trade. It's helping to upgrade the environment for the kids to grow up in, from downright horrendous to (hopefully) somewhat tolerable. And I most definitely view that as more valuable than a second round draft pick.

Yeah same way I feel, I don't want to see vets bring us to the level of giving up the lottery but I don't want to see the team get burried or as someone put it "assblasted" Yzerman is taking a middle ground approach of still tanking but not really. Totally comfortable with that plan.

I can get on board of the "should have just drafted like a madman" bandwagon but I don't fault him spending draft capital on things he sees as essential like moving up, getting a goalie, and improving D. I don't think any of those moves were short term, more midterm improvement for the long game development. Yaerman has a good track record of both keeping and getting the talent he needs. I think he deserves some wide space on giving up some pics for his plan. He is not 'planning on the fly', he doesn't do that. I don't think his mind works that way. He is a chess player and what appears like a head-scratcher move is the checkmate opportunity he sees in 8 turns.

This isn't Holland buying a few games from washed-up mediocrity to just squeeze in another bubble appearance and only get destroyed a little bit less. Or giving up drafting a top-pairing defenseman so he can get the money to sign Neilsen to 5 years on a team 6 years overdue for a rebuild. This is strategic and targeted mentoring, stabilization, and support for very young players that need it.

If we miss out on this Raty guy then it's "consequences". I personally don't see a small tournament sample size as a marker of what is to come, if that were true Mrazek would be in the vezina running. If we did miss out on a Gem just watch, Yzerman will fill the gap, he always does.

We don't need to pray for draft capital to dig us out from under an incompetent GM any more. IMO just sit back and enjoy the chess match.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I hate this dipshit Ricky Bobby mentality. Like, if you're not the best team in the league, you might as well just fold it up. That's ridiculous.

Thank you! It's like people have become addicted to tanking around here.

 

[SirloinUB]

No I'm not calling him a liar. I'm saying this offseason he traded away almost as many picks as he made. I think he seemed frustrated in the last presser because he tanked hard and came up with no franchise players. Now he seems to be scrambling a bit. His comments about Pastrnak were particularly telling. It was like an exasperated "Well we're just gonna try to find superstars in the 4th rd because we can't find them in the top of the draft". I hope people aren't mocking those comments in a few years like they did Holland. If we don't find some stud centers the Yzerplan ain't gonna be so "infallible" in the not too distant future especially when there are inevitable busts. IMO people already have unrealistic expectations on the rebuild timeline.

The irony of the pastrank comment is our center depth would be much worse had we drafted pastrnak but that's neither here nor there haha.

I think the salient point in regards to the bolded is there are certain things out of your control. Like yes wed be better off with a young stud Center but you can only draft what is available to you. I think his comments regarding pastrnak are more along the lines of "we need to be the ones to grab the Pastrnaks, points, kucherovs etc. in each draft."

I mean you cant draft 1st overall if you dont win the lottery right? Therefore you have to maximize the draft picks you do have by not missing the pastrnaks of the world. What else can you do?

 

[Retire91]

No I'm not calling him a liar. I'm saying this offseason he traded away almost as many picks as he made. I think he seemed frustrated in the last presser because he tanked hard and came up with no franchise players. Now he seems to be scrambling a bit. His comments about Pastrnak were particularly telling. It was like an exasperated "Well we're just gonna try to find superstars in the 4th rd because we can't find them in the top of the draft". I hope people aren't mocking those comments in a few years like they did Holland. If we don't find some stud centers the Yzerplan ain't gonna be so "infallible" in the not too distant future especially when there are inevitable busts. IMO people already have unrealistic expectations on the rebuild timeline.

I am not sure if I am reading this out of context but I don't think it's a fair expectation for Yzerman to have iced a franchise player yet. On one hand it's too early to tell if he has indeed drafted a franchise player and on the other hand he only has 3 drafts under his belt, two of which he was pushed back in the lottery and only one of which was a top 5 pick.

I do share some worries with you that more picks could bust than expected. That would definitely be a setback and some condemnation of trading the draft picks. Sorry if you have a gut feeling it's not going to work out. I remain hopeful and have huge faith in Yzerman's ability to find talent through multiple channels and also adapt to parts of the plan that don't go well. Hopefully we can all rub some of that off on each other here.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

19-20? That wasn't tanking. Our team was legitimately that bad because of the long term commitments we had. That roster in 19-20 (when we were really bad and not the TDL where we dumped AA and Green) was pretty much the same team we had the prior three years with aged, crappy UFA departures replaced by aged, crappy UFA pickups and TDL moves. Basically, we flipped out Nyquist in the top 6 with Fabbri which actually went okay all things considered in terms of a forward move.

That was 30 years of bills being paid all at once after we went through 5-7 years of payment deferral (by dealing futures to get veterans to be a bubble team).

But I'm sorry the Wings lost the lottery and they didn't get Quinton Byfield or Tim Stutzle. We'd be in literally the same place right now with them or with Raymond, so I don't get this weird obsession with it. We have a bunch of drafted kids. Let them have a chance at seeing LCA before saying they're f***ing garbage.

I am not sure if I am reading this out of context but I don't think it's a fair expectation for Yzerman to have iced a franchise player yet. On one hand it's too early to tell if he has indeed drafted a franchise player and on the other hand he only has 3 drafts under his belt, two of which he was pushed back in the lottery and only one of which was a top 5 pick.

I do share some worries with you that more picks could bust than expected. That would definitely be a setback and some condemnation of trading the draft picks. Sorry if you have a gut feeling it's not going to work out. I remain hopeful and have huge faith in Yzerman's ability to find talent through multiple channels and also adapt to parts of the plan that don't go well. Hopefully we can all rub some of that off on each other here.

All draft picks have a chance to bust. The Wings have taken a whole lot of swings in the draft and took the opportunity in a year where nobody knows a damn thing about most of the players because they hadn't played in a year to go get guys they'd seen who were of necessary positions. If there was ever a year to swing for the fences and be aggressive moving up, it's the year where nobody is certain about anything and you get the guy you're craving at a relatively low cost. Moving up from 23 to 15 for a 2nd and a 5th is actually pretty cheap. The Wings got a second for dropping back two slots in Mantha's draft. They got a second for moving back 4 slots in the Chychrun draft. If Sebastian Cossa is our goalie from three years from now to 13 years from now... I'm not bitching about a 2nd and a 5th.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

19-20? That wasn't tanking. Our team was legitimately that bad because of the long term commitments we had. That roster in 19-20 (when we were really bad and not the TDL where we dumped AA and Green) was pretty much the same team we had the prior three years with aged, crappy UFA departures replaced by aged, crappy UFA pickups and TDL moves. Basically, we flipped out Nyquist in the top 6 with Fabbri which actually went okay all things considered in terms of a forward move.

That was 30 years of bills being paid all at once after we went through 5-7 years of payment deferral (by dealing futures to get veterans to be a bubble team).

But I'm sorry the Wings lost the lottery and they didn't get Quinton Byfield or Tim Stutzle. We'd be in literally the same place right now with them or with Raymond, so I don't get this weird obsession with it. We have a bunch of drafted kids. Let them have a chance at seeing LCA before saying they're f***ing garbage.



All draft picks have a chance to bust. The Wings have taken a whole lot of swings in the draft and took the opportunity in a year where nobody knows a damn thing about most of the players because they hadn't played in a year to go get guys they'd seen who were of necessary positions. If there was ever a year to swing for the fences and be aggressive moving up, it's the year where nobody is certain about anything and you get the guy you're craving at a relatively low cost. Moving up from 23 to 15 for a 2nd and a 5th is actually pretty cheap. The Wings got a second for dropping back two slots in Mantha's draft. They got a second for moving back 4 slots in the Chychrun draft. If Sebastian Cossa is our goalie from three years from now to 13 years from now... I'm not bitching about a 2nd and a 5th.

It was a 1st a 2nd and a 5th. That's 3 prospects instead of one. If Cossa hits then fine. If he doesnt that's like drafting 3 busts. I'm not a scout and I don't pretend to be but there's a reason very few goalies get picked in the 1st rd. They're voodoo. They're also readily available without spending 15th overall picks. I mean we just picked up a pretty good one for a 3rd. We let one walk that we could have easily signed to reasonable money.

 

[Retire91]

It was a 1st a 2nd and a 5th. That's 3 prospects instead of one. If Cossa hits then fine. If he doesnt that's like drafting 3 busts. I'm not a scout and I don't pretend to be but there's a reason very few goalies get picked in the 1st rd. They're voodoo. They're also readily available without spending 15th overall picks. I mean we just picked up a pretty good one for a 3rd. We let one walk that we could have easily signed to reasonable money.

I am on the other side of the fence. I apprechiate that we have a GM who is trading up. Its another giant sign that we have moved on from past mistakes just like all the deadweight we shed from a roster every offseason.

He is swinging for a home run in a franchise goalie. There is no garuntee the 2nd and 5th would have panned out if we kept him either. Cossa was taken in the first becvuase he had legit reasons to be there. Yzerman has a track record to stand on that says to me if he was willing to trade up that is an extra statement in what they saw in him. I really can't absorb any of the nay saying on this move becuase it just has so many awseome implemcations. Saying it might be a bust is just like saying i might rain tomorrow. While technically true you don't know until tomorrow and it doesn't matter today. It's nice to have a shrude GM gambling for big payoffs instead of squndering resources just to tred water. Exciting times to be a fan.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Thank you! It's like people have become addicted to tanking around here.

I was able to go undercover at their last meeting. Proof of the meeting: