Confirmed with Link: Erne and Vrana file for Arbitration

[Nut Upstrom]

I hate tanking to the point of being the most embarrasing team in the NHL and still not having a franchise player in the entire system. But hey at least we have the cap space to rent Nick Leddy as we embark on the eternal search for David Pastrnak.

It's odd that you so vocally hate the Leddy trade (which I do as well) because it screws up our chance to draft a Pastrnak type sleeper beyond the first round, yet you also soundly mock the strategy of holding out hope for a Pastrnak type in the later rounds. You're going in such a circle that even as I agree with your point about Leddy, it's hard to endorse you because there seems to be a contradiction at work.

Bottom line is, the lottery has screwed us and is unlikely to help us in the foreseeable future as we get marginally better. Without a favorable lottery bounce, there's not much more to do (draft wise) other than getting the BPA with your first pick then hoping one of those later swings turns into a home run.

 

[Sparty]

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Yikes. That offer is bordeline insulting.

 

[19 for president]

Yikes. That offer is bordeline insulting.

That is really low for the points he has put up.... negotiation tactic to get him to come to the table and negotiate a better deal before risking getting the team arbitration award? It's and either or thing right? You either get the team award or the player award, the arbitrator can't choose to award in between the amounts.

 

[Henkka]

When comparing to Bertuzzi arbitration

Team was offering: 3.15M
Player was asking: 4.25M

Final outcome was 3.5M.

So it was lower than the midpoint.

We could expect Vrana getting 4.5M 1-year. (4.675M is the midpoint)

 

[Frk It]

Yikes. That offer is bordeline insulting.

That is really low for the points he has put up.... negotiation tactic to get him to come to the table and negotiate a better deal before risking getting the team arbitration award? It's and either or thing right? You either get the team award or the player award, the arbitrator can't choose to award in between the amounts.

If the goal is to meet in the middle at the most reasonable price possible, then the team offer is going to typically be lower than market value by a decent amount.

SOP

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yikes. That offer is bordeline insulting.

That's how arbitration works. It's not insulting. They're not going to offer a fair number. The midpoint of 3.75 and 5.7 is probably about fair for a year or two.

I'm sure the idea is landing somewhere around 4.5-4.75

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

So Yzerman offers Vrana a $300,000 raise coming off a 36 point season in 50 games with Washington and Detroit. Come on Steve we all know Vrana is worth more then that lowball offer you're offering him.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yzerman is probably offering more in actual negotations but in arbitration you gotta lowball.

Probably the difference in reality is 4 million vs. 5 million and both sides are exaggerating a bit for arbitration.

 

[Henkka]

So Yzerman offers Vrana a $300,000 raise coming off a 36 point season in 50 games with Washington and Detroit. Come on Steve we all know Vrana is worth more then that lowball offer you're offering him.

But but...

...he was a healthy scratch for Caps. There is some concerns.

And he did only score 11 points.... That's a small sample size.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

But but...

...he was a healthy scratch for Caps. There is some concerns.

And he did only score 11 points.... That's a small sample size.

Touche.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So Yzerman offers Vrana a $300,000 raise coming off a 36 point season in 50 games with Washington and Detroit. Come on Steve we all know Vrana is worth more then that lowball offer you're offering him.

Yes, he did. Because that's how arbitration has worked forever. The player asks for a higher salary than the market will bear, the team offers a salary lower than the market will bear and they meet in the middle.

All of you could stand to learn Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #3. "Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to." or #5 "Always exaggerate your estimates"

 

[Nut Upstrom]

If the goal is to meet in the middle at the most reasonable price possible, then the team offer is going to typically be lower than market value by a decent amount.

SOP

That's how arbitration works. It's not insulting. They're not going to offer a fair number. The midpoint of 3.75 and 5.7 is probably about fair for a year or two.

I'm sure the idea is landing somewhere around 4.5-4.75

oh that's how it works?
Thanks

Now that I know this, my official opinion is that the starting offer is borderline insulting.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

This kid has scored more than the guy we traded to get him, and scored more than Bertuzzi who has a much higher cap hit.

That is the kind of counter offer from a GM that makes a player want to leave.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Yes, he did. Because that's how arbitration has worked forever. The player asks for a higher salary than the market will bear, the team offers a salary lower than the market will bear and they meet in the middle.

All of you could stand to learn Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #3. "Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to." or #5 "Always exaggerate your estimates"

We're all Adults here, We know how arbitration works. Yzerman could've offered Vrana $4,000,000 and Vrana's offer could've been $6,000,000 and you meet at $5,000,000. Vrana is easily worth 5 x $5,000,000 probably even closer to 5 x $5,500,000 per.

 

[Frk It]

oh that's how it works?
Thanks

Now that I know this, my official opinion is that the starting offer is borderline insulting.

So you want us to not offer as low as possible so we can over-pay? Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Frk It]

We're all Adults here, We know how arbitration works. Yzerman could've offered Vrana $4,000,000 and Vrana's offer could've been $6,000,000 and you meet at $5,000,000. Vrana is easily worth 5 x $5,000,000 probably even closer to 5 x $5,500,000 per.

So we are quibbling about 450k in that case?

 

[Nut Upstrom]

So we are quibbling about 450k in that case?

I am more quibbling about the likelihood that Vrana is perturbed by our lowball offer and decides he'd rather play elsewhere. If 450k prevents that then I am all for it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

We're all Adults here, We know how arbitration works. Yzerman could've offered Vrana $4,000,000 and Vrana's offer could've been $6,000,000 and you meet at $5,000,000. Vrana is easily worth 5 x $5,000,000 probably even closer to 5 x $5,500,000 per.

I don't think you do.

They both are literally within 350k of the numbers that you've stated. Vrana didn't ask for 6. And there is nothing preventing a 5x5 or 5.5 extension. Nothing is stopping that contract. I just fail to see how an offer of 3.65 and 5.7 is somehow the worst thing in the world but 4 and 6 would be perfectly fine.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

There's a difference between initial submitted salary request pre determination vs. what the client is worth.

The end result is to most likely push him towards a 4.5-5 for term (4-5 years) than it's to try to get him locked in at 3.75 for 2 years. The point is that the arbitrated value needs to be less than the offer than the team is actually offering.

As for arbitration, Vranas agent knows that is a big number and the arbitrator is going to end up closer to Steve's number. Many of the criteria that is admissible versus ignored favors the Wings a great deal. This is about trying to land on a longer term deal between Steve and the Agent, not about the arbitration.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I am more quibbling about the likelihood that Vrana is perturbed by our lowball offer and decides he'd rather play elsewhere. If 450k prevents that then I am all for it.

450k would not prevent him from feeling that way. He wants 5.7 or in the other case, he wants 6. He doesn't want the lower end.

If an agent has been employed for longer than 6 months, he'll be able to tell his client "We offer high, they offer low, we meet in the middle." Why on Earth do people want to keep painting arbitration filings like they're the devil or that you're a complete asshole for a lowball offer when every single arbitration case has a lowball offer from the team and a highball offer from the player.

 

[Frk It]

I am more quibbling about the likelihood that Vrana is perturbed by our lowball offer and decides he'd rather play elsewhere. If 450k prevents that then I am all for it.

How many guys has Yzerman pissed off in salary negotiations and they left?

If anything, he has a track record of getting guys in at under market value.

And just maybe that 3.65 number was a calculated number as a result of looking at comparables and analytics. But feel feee to show us your own work proving that it is in fact, “insulting”.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

450k would not prevent him from feeling that way. He wants 5.7 or in the other case, he wants 6. He doesn't want the lower end.

If an agent has been employed for longer than 6 months, he'll be able to tell his client "We offer high, they offer low, we meet in the middle." Why on Earth do people want to keep painting arbitration filings like they're the devil or that you're a complete asshole for a lowball offer when every single arbitration case has a lowball offer from the team and a highball offer from the player.

Maybe PTSD from Fedorov?

 

[Hen Kolland]

I am more quibbling about the likelihood that Vrana is perturbed by our lowball offer and decides he'd rather play elsewhere. If 450k prevents that then I am all for it.

And if Vrana gets to the point where he is so pissy about the arbitration situation that he would rather play somewhere else rather than negotiate and earn a larger pay day, then he will probably be traded before he even gets a chance to sign with another team.

It's been clear since the start that Yzerman's management philosophy is around building a culture within a team of players who want to play for each other and build a winner. If Vrana is so perturbed by a "lowball" offer that he wants to be gone, he's just proving that he's the exact player who got benched in Washington that puts himself before everyone else.

But at least MBH would have another per-60 darling to berate the franchise over.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

How many guys has Yzerman pissed off in salary negotiations and they left?

If anything, he has a track record of getting guys in at under market value.

And maybe that 3.65 number was a calculated number as a result of looking at comparables and analytics. But feel feee to show me your own work proving that it is in fact, “insulting”.

It's far easier to just compare it to Tyler Bertuzzi's freshly signed contract and bitch that the number isn't as high. And point out that he got 36 in 50 and only is being offered a 300k raise.

It's almost like these are things (comparables and performance) that an arbitrator might look at to decide the contract. Teams aren't just throwing random dollar amounts around when it comes to these filings. Like 3.65, as Frk It says, generally has something behind it, why they offered. It's why the Wings held firm on not paying AA 2.5 when every comparable was 1.8-2.1 for the same contract term.