Confirmed with Link: Erne and Vrana file for Arbitration

[Konnan511]

We're all Adults here,

False

We know how arbitration works.

Clearly not by looking at this thread and the responses.

 

[Tetsuo]

Yzerman is just about the best in there is at RFA negotiations; this is just business folks.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

How many guys has Yzerman pissed off in salary negotiations and they left?

If anything, he has a track record of getting guys in at under market value.

And just maybe that 3.65 number was a calculated number as a result of looking at comparables and analytics. But feel feee to show us your own work proving that it is in fact, “insulting”.

Yzerman got players under market value, Due to 0 State Income tax here in Florida, That's not the case in Michigan.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Yzerman is just about the best in there is at RFA negotiations; this is just business folks.

I guess we'll see. Its easier to negotiate with RFAs when you're the GM of a powerhouse and perennial contender. I'm not sure the RFAs are as eager to sell their services low for a cellar dweller team with a coach whose system will bleed the offense out of them.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

It's odd that you so vocally hate the Leddy trade (which I do as well) because it screws up our chance to draft a Pastrnak type sleeper beyond the first round, yet you also soundly mock the strategy of holding out hope for a Pastrnak type in the later rounds. You're going in such a circle that even as I agree with your point about Leddy, it's hard to endorse you because there seems to be a contradiction at work.

Bottom line is, the lottery has screwed us and is unlikely to help us in the foreseeable future as we get marginally better. Without a favorable lottery bounce, there's not much more to do (draft wise) other than getting the BPA with your first pick then hoping one of those later swings turns into a home run.

There's no contradiction at all. If you're moving on from the bottom without the pieces you need then you better take every shot you can to get those pieces. Yzerman is ttying to move on and wasting kicks at the can in order to do so. The contradiction is in the Yzerplan.

 

[Tatar Shots]

False

Clearly not by looking at this thread and the responses.

Very clear that several posters have no clue how the arbitration process works.

Vrana applied for arbitration, meaning that Detroit gets to choose whether the selected term is for 1 or 2 years. 2 years brings Vrana straight to UFA, so it's very likely Detroit elects for a 1 year deal if this drags out to arbitration. Essentially, Detroit went on the low end offering $3.65 million for a 1 year deal and Vrana the high end, $5.7 million on a 1 year deal. If arbitration splits this in the middle, Vrana would get $4.675 million in a 1 year deal, which sounds pretty fair to me. Now, it's highly unlikely it ever gets to this point and a deal should get done beforehand.

 

[Frk It]

Yzerman got players under market value, Due to 0 State Income tax here in Florida, That's not the case in Michigan.

Partly, yeah.

But maybe he’s a good negotiator? I have a hard time when we start with incompetence as the baseline, is all. The guy hasn’t really handed out any bad contracts or muffed any negotiations that I’m aware of, so maybe he knows what he’s doing.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

Maybe we should get Holland to come back, Yzerman is clearly insulting our RFAs with his offer.
Vrana asked for 5.7, Yzerman should have offered 7M as to not insult him.



Just incase,

 

[Nut Upstrom]

How many guys has Yzerman pissed off in salary negotiations and they left?

If anything, he has a track record of getting guys in at under market value.

And just maybe that 3.65 number was a calculated number as a result of looking at comparables and analytics. But feel feee to show us your own work proving that it is in fact, “insulting”.

I need to show proof to support an opinion? That is an absurd request. You fellows are really doing your best to maintain a cozy clique atmosphere around here.

 

[Frk It]

I need to show proof to support an opinion? That is an absurd request. You fellows are really doing your best to maintain a cozy clique atmosphere around here.

So you don’t think you should have anything that supports your opinion that 3.65 is insulting?

And then when you get called out for having a totally baseless opinion, I am in a “clique”?

Awesome. That’s enough internet for today.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

There's no contradiction at all. If you're moving on from the bottom without the pieces you need then you better take every shot you can to get those pieces. Yzerman is ttying to move on and wasting kicks at the can in order to do so. The contradiction is in the Yzerplan.

Yea, I know what Yzerman did. I voiced my objection when the trade happened because it denied us kicks at the can. I didn't then turn around and essentially say, "Extra kicks at the can for a Pastrnak? That's stupid."

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Partly, yeah.

But maybe he’s a good negotiator? I have a hard time when we start with incompetence as the baseline, is all. The guy hasn’t really handed out any bad contracts or muffed any negotiations that I’m aware of, so maybe he knows what he’s doing.

The 0 State Income tax, And a chance to win back 2 back cups.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

This kid has scored more than the guy we traded to get him, and scored more than Bertuzzi who has a much higher cap hit.

That is the kind of counter offer from a GM that makes a player want to leave.

He scored more than Mantha in a tiny sample size. Their numbers overall are nearly identical. Mantha is likely still the superior player and Bert brings alot of different elements that Vrana doesn't.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

So you don’t think you should have anything that supports your opinion that 3.65 is insulting?

And then when you get called out for having a totally baseless opinion, I am in a “clique”?

Awesome. Why did I go on the internet today.

I think its a lowball offer. I don't browse the salary cap sites nor do i care to. To me it seems about 2 million below what he should get - so my opinion is that it is "borderline insulting."

 

[jkutswings]

Did I miss something here?

You'd think that Yzerman was across the table from the second coming of Wayne Gretzky and just offered him league minimum.

The player asks for more than they deserve. The team asks for less. Then they either meet in the middle on their own before the hearing, or a third party decides for them.

Nothing new, and certainly nothing insulting. Let the process unfold and take a chill pill.

(Because had Detroit come in at 4 or even 4.5, there would be plenty of fans upset at "overpaying" when the arbitration settled for close to 6M for 1 year.)

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Yea, I know what Yzerman did. I voiced my objection when the trade happened because it denied us in kicks at the can. I didn't then turn around and essentially say, "Extra kicks at the can for a Pastrnak? That's stupid."

It's not that it's stupid. It's just not the most effective strategy. You occasionally find great players late in the draft. That being your overall strategy for finding a franchise center?
Let me know how that works out.
We traded
a 2nd for Leddy
Let Cholo walk for nothing
Traded a 1st, 2nd and 5th for Cossa
Traded a 2nd and a 4th to get Buium.
Traded a 3rd to get Neds.

We're trading away 8 picks and we're gonna find a Pastrnak late in the draft.
That's contradictory behavior.

So going forward it seems to me that Yzerman will be forced to move some very good pieces in order to find the draft capital to chase a Pastrnak. That being the case he probably should have tanked another year or at minimum not rented Leddy for worse odds.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I think its a lowball offer. I don't browse the salary cap sites nor do i care to. To me it seems about 2 million below what he should get - so my opinion is that it is "borderline insulting."

So if it's two million below what he should get, you are saying that Vrana was so kind hearted that he filed for arbitration with his exact market value and didn't inflate his ask at all trying to play the negotiation game to get more money?

Yzerman wants employ Vrana for poverty level wages and all Vrana wants is what he's worth. Certainly there's no gamesmanship happening on both sides...

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Does Yzerman have to be "the best" or a "fraud"? Does every deal need to be a "steal" or "boneheaded"? This is normal arbitration business. It is a forcing mechanism to keep negotiating between team and agent and that's about it. I highly doubt Vrana or Yzerman are sitting at home stewing in rage over any of this and are most focused on a contract with term that's between these two values.

I can only speak from my experience, but you hire a negotiator/headhunter/agent to handle these details for you. You are rarely involved outside of giving some broad guidance and approving things but mostly going "Do you think this is the right value?" just because you can Google a salary, doesn't mean it's an accurate comp and you rely on the expertise of the professional to provide those comps, advise, and drive the process. That's why you're paying them. Literally our "expertise" is "this guy's seems like the same and this guy's is worse, let's pick a number between". There's a lot more to this.

Regardless, this is not a big deal. Hopefully this acts as the forcing mechanism as it's designed to be otherwise, he signs the 4M or so awarded by the arbitrator, Wings chose 1yr as the term, and they try again throughout the year to sign to an extension. Or he trades him. Done

 

[Scottgaf1]

How the guy who was a winner here, help keep the team winning here in the front office, an the builder of the best team the last 10 years, isnt getting the benefit of doubt, I dont get it.

He came back to easily the worst situation in the league, and has the team in much better cap shape, and a lot deeper talent base.

A lot of the dead weight is coming off the books. Id say hes off to a great start.

Picking apart unfinished arbitration results seems more than petty to me.

 

[Hen Kolland]

This kid has scored more than the guy we traded to get him, and scored more than Bertuzzi who has a much higher cap hit.

That is the kind of counter offer from a GM that makes a player want to leave.

Ovechkin better watch out now that Vrana was set free from that oppressive organization that actively stopped people from scoring goals. I mean, Vrana scored 3 more goals in his 11 games with Detroit than the greatest goal scorer in NHL history scored in his last 11 regular season games with Washington this past season.

Maybe we should tack on $3 million to Ovechkin's contract. 1 for each additional goal Vrana scored over Ovechkin. Give him a cool $12.5 million annual salary.

 

[jkutswings]

We traded
a 2nd for Leddy
Let Cholo walk for nothing
Traded a 1st, 2nd and 5th for Cossa
Traded a 2nd and a 4th to get Buium.
Traded a 3rd to get Neds.

At some point you need to not just go for quantity, and also incorporate quality.

Leddy is the best defenseman on the roster.
Cholowski is not an NHL player.
Cossa is definitely a gamble, and we'll see.
Ditto for Buium.
And Ned is at minimum better than any other goaltending prospect the organization had at the time of his acquisition.

Do I want more centers? Absolutely. It's a desperate need (but not the only need). Consider that:

* Maybe the Wings didn't think there were any worth drafting this year;
* Maybe they thought there were good players worth chasing at other positions of need; and
* Maybe they think 2022 is a much better class to draft centers, and plan to take a few.

Now yes, that's a lot of maybes. But it's not like the team is just a 1C away from a Cup run. Let's see how the kids play this season with some stability around them, and let's see what happens next summer before lamenting as if center will be forever ignored.

 

[Mister Ed]

Picking apart unfinished arbitration results seems more than petty to me.

Hit the nail on the head there.

Here's some more info on the whole process. Here's a reminder, too :

• Arbitration awards can only be 1 or 2 years in length [CBA 12.10(a)&(b)]

 

[Mister Ed]

Also, I don't think it will apply in Erne's case, but in Vrana's case :

• Player elected Arbitration Settlements of 1 year and greater than $4,538,958, Club can walk away from the awarded salary, making the player a UFA [CBA 12.10(a)]
• Player elected Arbitration Settlements of 2 years and greater than $4,538,958, Club can walk away from the second (2nd) year of the awarded salary, making the player a UFA at the end of year 1 [CBA 12.10(b)]
  

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Hit the nail on the head there.

Here's some more info on the whole process. Here's a reminder, too :

• Arbitration awards can only be 1 or 2 years in length [CBA 12.10(a)&(b)]

The other one here of note is that I believe Vrana was Player initiated so the Team has the option to chose between 1 or 2 years

 

[Revenge of Gru]

At some point you need to not just go for quantity, and also incorporate quality.

Leddy is the best defenseman on the roster.
Cholowski is not an NHL player.
Cossa is definitely a gamble, and we'll see.
Ditto for Buium.
And Ned is at minimum better than any other goaltending prospect the organization had at the time of his acquisition.

Do I want more centers? Absolutely. It's a desperate need (but not the only need). Consider that:

* Maybe the Wings didn't think there were any worth drafting this year;
* Maybe they thought there were good players worth chasing at other positions of need; and
* Maybe they think 2022 is a much better class to draft centers, and plan to take a few.

Now yes, that's a lot of maybes. But it's not like the team is just a 1C away from a Cup run. Let's see how the kids play this season with some stability around them, and let's see what happens next summer before lamenting as if center will be forever ignored.

It's not that I think all those moves were bad though I think some were very questionable. I don't think they are ignoring the centernice position. I just don't think they have a plan with a high probability for success at addressing the issue.
Let's say we fail to find Pastrnak in the next 3 years. Now we're the Arizona Coyotes. Our current trajectory is straight up to the........middle. I know people scoff at the idea that Yzerman won't just wave his magic wand and make us a contender but I think there's gonna be a lot more dumping of talent for futures. This rebuild is a long way from turning the corner.