Confirmed with Link: Erne and Vrana file for Arbitration

[Revenge of Gru]

I am on the other side of the fence. I apprechiate that we have a GM who is trading up. Its another giant sign that we have moved on from past mistakes just like all the deadweight we shed from a roster every offseason.

He is swinging for a home run in a franchise goalie. There is no garuntee the 2nd and 5th would have panned out if we kept him either. Cossa was taken in the first becvuase he had legit reasons to be there. Yzerman has a track record to stand on that says to me if he was willing to trade up that is an extra statement in what they saw in him. I really can't absorb any of the nay saying on this move becuase it just has so many awseome implemcations. Saying it might be a bust is just like saying i might rain tomorrow. While technically true you don't know until tomorrow and it doesn't matter today. It's nice to have a shrude GM gambling for big payoffs instead of squndering resources just to tred water. Exciting times to be a fan.

I know, I know it's Steve Yzerman. He's infallible and completely beyond criticism. I don't see it that way just as I don't see Holland's HOF career as that of a bumnling idiot. It actually sickens me to see how people turned on him. I believe Yzerman is a good GM. However his career isn't without significant blunders.

 

[Retire91]

I know, I know it's Steve Yzerman. He's infallible and completely beyond criticism. I don't see it that way just as I don't see Holland's HOF career as that of a bumnling idiot. It actually sickens me to see how people turned on him. I believe Yzerman is a good GM. However his career isn't without significant blunders.

I don't think there is a single human being alive that is infalible and if there is one that claims to be then they are full of it lolz.

I am not sure the board is quite as accomidating as portrayed here. I am probably one of the most enthusaistic supporters of his work but I still slammed the filpuula signing as unnecessary, I think the Carter Mazur pick is going to turn out to be a waste. I think the Drapper pick was a farce. And I stated all as such in the threads. I don't think Yzerman has been "beyond" critisism.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I know, I know it's Steve Yzerman. He's infallible and completely beyond criticism. I don't see it that way just as I don't see Holland's HOF career as that of a bumnling idiot. It actually sickens me to see how people turned on him. I believe Yzerman is a good GM. However his career isn't without significant blunders.

He's not beyond criticism. People who aren't jumping down his throat about every single move realize that you can't just fix things immediately because you want them fixed immediately.

Holland's whole career isn't called into question. His moves that he made in 2013-2019 were done with the goal of trying to prolong the streak (per prodding from the Ilitches). Also, he got very weirdly conservative on damn near everything except for the time or two he tried taking big swings (like trading to chase Stamkos only to have that blow up on him or offering Suter and having that blow up on him). He made safe moves to bring in guys like Weiss and Nielsen which flopped almost immediately. And then he made a couple fireable signings (7 years at over 4M to Abby and 5 years at 3.85M to Helm) due to loyalty.

This is the shit that bothers me. I've been called a Holland apologist a million times because I didn't think he was actually a bad GM. He made bad moves and got conservative when it wasn't called for. I also know that Yzerman is a hell of a lot like Holland.

This isn't leading to any kind of relevant discussion, because you're building a strawman to knock it down. People don't think Yzerman is infallible. People who weren't blinded by hatred in the past five years didn't think Holland was a complete nincompoop. But it is an objective fact that Yzerman in totality did a fantastic job in Tampa and deserves the chance to do a fantastic job without armchair pundits not bitching at every move and that Holland did a pisspoor job in managing the descent of the Red Wings after they swung and missed on Ryan Suter. Those aren't opinions, those are facts.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

He's not beyond criticism. People who aren't jumping down his throat about every single move realize that you can't just fix things immediately because you want them fixed immediately.

Holland's whole career isn't called into question. His moves that he made in 2013-2019 were done with the goal of trying to prolong the streak (per prodding from the Ilitches). Also, he got very weirdly conservative on damn near everything except for the time or two he tried taking big swings (like trading to chase Stamkos only to have that blow up on him or offering Suter and having that blow up on him). He made safe moves to bring in guys like Weiss and Nielsen which flopped almost immediately. And then he made a couple fireable signings (7 years at over 4M to Abby and 5 years at 3.85M to Helm) due to loyalty.

This is the shit that bothers me. I've been called a Holland apologist a million times because I didn't think he was actually a bad GM. He made bad moves and got conservative when it wasn't called for. I also know that Yzerman is a hell of a lot like Holland.

This isn't leading to any kind of relevant discussion, because you're building a strawman to knock it down. People don't think Yzerman is infallible. People who weren't blinded by hatred in the past five years didn't think Holland was a complete nincompoop. But it is an objective fact that Yzerman in totality did a fantastic job in Tampa and deserves the chance to do a fantastic job without armchair pundits not bitching at every move and that Holland did a pisspoor job in managing the descent of the Red Wings after they swung and missed on Ryan Suter. Those aren't opinions, those are facts.

Holland rewarded career Red Wings for what was to be some very bad years. Yzerman brought in slugs and placeholders that had no history with the franchise or were completely washed up yet didn't make the team any better. I liked Helm, Glendenning, Abby. They were Red Wings. All 3 created memorable moments. Merril, Nemeth, Staal, Pickard, Djoos, the skeleton of Filipula...ect... A year from now I won't remember any of their names.

 

[Henkka]

Merril, Nemeth, Staal, Pickard, Djoos, the skeleton of Filipula...ect... A year from now I won't remember any of their names.

But you remember the draft picks we got from them. Staal-trade, Merrill, Nemeth... You liked to get more picks.

Where is that love now?

Another troll and agenda going on here. Praising Holland, bashing Yzerman, when he is trading picks away for draft reach and bashing Yzerman, when he signs free UFAs and collects extra picks from those guys.

You are so busted. Haven't been a full week in here and the message is clear.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

But you remember the draft picks we got from them. Staal-trade, Merrill, Nemeth... You liked to get more picks.

Where is that love now?

Another troll and agenda going on here. Praising Holland, bashing Yzerman, when he is trading picks away for draft reach and bashing Yzerman, when he signs free UFAs and collects extra picks from those guys.

You are so busted. Haven't been a full week in here and the message is clear.

That's simply not true. I love Yzerman. Top 5 Red Wing all time and I wasn't around for 3 of the 5. I just figure Howe #1. A couple other old timers. Lidstrom and Stevie. I've liked most of what Stevie has done until this offseason. I'm not sure we got value in the draft equal to the pain but maybe some late bloomers emerge. This offseason doesn't inspire confidence. I'm a Bert fan. He's probably gone. I'm not confident Vrana isn't going to a hearing. Edvinsson comes with some big question marks and goalies are very risky. I wouldn't even be as down of the Leddy trade if he wasn't a one year rental bridge to nowhere.
As for Holland? I have some really fantastic memories because of his tenure. The internet has been pretty unfair imo.
Now if Vrana get done before the hearing. Bert stays. Leddy gets extended or draws a first, i will happily admit I was way off.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Holland rewarded career Red Wings for what was to be some very bad years. Yzerman brought in slugs and placeholders that had no history with the franchise or were completely washed up yet didn't make the team any better. I liked Helm, Glendenning, Abby. They were Red Wings. All 3 created memorable moments. Merril, Nemeth, Staal, Pickard, Djoos, the skeleton of Filipula...ect... A year from now I won't remember any of their names.

Okay troll. What memorable moment did Abby create after 2009? What memorable moment did Helm create... after 2009? Helm had one of my favorite shifts ever and I f***in love the goal and fallout that happened when Helmer scored the goal to send the Wings to the 2009 Finals. What memorable moment did Glendening have, aside from maybe shutting down Tyler Johnson for the first 3.5 games against Tampa in our second to last playoff run? If they had these memorable moments after the last time the Wings made the Cup finals, you must have them top of mind. (And I'm not putting them down... the Wings didn't do anything of note from 2010-2016 in the playoffs at all)

Holland gave long term deals to guys who didn't deserve them. I don't know why you're including Glendening in this, btw... 4x1.8 was a completely appropriate contract for what he brought.

Justin Abdelkader's contract was a shit show from the moment pen hit paper. He was a "40 point forward" in that he could stand in front of the net and get goals from when Datsyuk played horse and scored off of Abby's ass. Darren Helm in 2010-2014 may have been worth 3.85 as the quote "best 3rd line C in hockey". But by the time he signed that 5 year deal, he wasn't a center anymore and he was hardly consistently healthy anymore. It's not a positive to reward players after their usefulness for 7 years or 5 years because you're going to be bad. I could even get behind it if he had just given one or both a year contract at those values if it were a "doing right by his guys". But it's god f***ing awful to give a very mediocre player 30 million dollars over 7 years because he's a good guy. Or 19 million over 5 because you like riding jetskis with him and his family.

Merrill signed for like a stick of gum. Nemeth signed for half of Abdelkader's deal. Staal signed for half of Abdelkader's deal. Pickard was the like fourth goalie.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That's simply not true. I love Yzerman. Top 5 Red Wing all time and I wasn't around for 3 of the 5. I just figure Howe #1. A couple other old timers. Lidstrom and Stevie. I've liked most of what Stevie has done until this offseason. I'm not sure we got value in the draft equal to the pain but maybe some late bloomers emerge. This offseason doesn't inspire confidence. I'm a Bert fan. He's probably gone. I'm not confident Vrana isn't going to a hearing. Edvinsson comes with some big question marks and goalies are very risky. I wouldn't even be as down of the Leddy trade if he wasn't a one year rental bridge to nowhere.
As for Holland? I have some really fantastic memories because of his tenure. The internet has been pretty unfair imo.
Now if Vrana get done before the hearing. Bert stays. Leddy gets extended or draws a first, i will happily admit I was way off.

Ken Holland was by far one of the greatest GMs in hockey and was unparalleled after the first lockout. But Holland after lockout #2? He was Michael Jordan with the Washington Wizards or Wayne Gretzky in St. Louis or New York. That doesn't diminish that they are the greatest of all time... but they weren't those guys anymore.

 

[SirKillalot]

It's one tournament. And it's also a kind of nothing tournament. Raty wilted under pressure during the season in his draft year and underperformed in his D-1 year. If he can carry over his strong play from the WJSS back to Finland then I might change my tune on the guy.

Raty as I know had long term effects of covid and played 4th line of a mens team.
I wish we would have drafted him. As yes, we need to hit on picks, but we also need to pick up those players who slide. Raty was that category.
I guess the only valid argument against it, is that talented players who have slid before, like Jurco and so on, haven't always panned out.

I offered pros & cons, if you'll notice the NHLPe, pacing for 3rd liner as of now...so it's not looking like a bad decision. But based on just the profile above it, yikes. Likely 1C to pacing for 3rd is a huge swing.

Thing with these stats stuff it only takes numbers and not circumstances into account.

Which has more upside? Him or 1 year of Nick Leddy?

Potential wise Raty if he reach it.
Yzerman traded for Leddy as he knows these young d-men would benefit from having an older guy who can feed of his experience on them. Even if it's just for a season.
One can get the 2nd back for Leddy.
I like that Yzerman is aggressive went he wants something done.

He made safe moves to bring in guys like Weiss and Nielsen which flopped almost immediately. And then he made a couple fireable signings (7 years at over 4M to Abby and 5 years at 3.85M to Helm) due to loyalty.

This is the shit that bothers me. I've been called a Holland apologist a million times because I didn't think he was actually a bad GM. He made bad moves and got conservative when it wasn't called for. I also know that Yzerman is a hell of a lot like Holland.

Holland made many questionable moves to bring in middle six forwards at the deadline and signing some guys to long term deal.

At least Yzerman only gives stop gap contracts to such type of players and maybe that pans out to something more long term.

 

[SirKillalot]

Ken Holland was by far one of the greatest GMs in hockey and was unparalleled after the first lockout. But Holland after lockout #2? He was Michael Jordan with the Washington Wizards or Wayne Gretzky in St. Louis or New York. That doesn't diminish that they are the greatest of all time... but they weren't those guys anymore.

Biggest problem for Holland has been adapting to having cap roof.
And understand a payment structure in regards to position.

The Weiss and Nielsen deals were awful.

 

[jkutswings]

As a general observation, I think there are several fans on this board that value things like gritty play a LOT more than I do. And that's ok. But it's a big factor in how I view certain players versus how others do.

I'm not saying I want a roster filled with figure skaters. But I probably think that element is easier to find (or replace) on the open market than other fans do.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Okay troll. What memorable moment did Abby create after 2009? What memorable moment did Helm create... after 2009? Helm had one of my favorite shifts ever and I f***in love the goal and fallout that happened when Helmer scored the goal to send the Wings to the 2009 Finals. What memorable moment did Glendening have, aside from maybe shutting down Tyler Johnson for the first 3.5 games against Tampa in our second to last playoff run? If they had these memorable moments after the last time the Wings made the Cup finals, you must have them top of mind. (And I'm not putting them down... the Wings didn't do anything of note from 2010-2016 in the playoffs at all)

Holland gave long term deals to guys who didn't deserve them. I don't know why you're including Glendening in this, btw... 4x1.8 was a completely appropriate contract for what he brought.

Justin Abdelkader's contract was a shit show from the moment pen hit paper. He was a "40 point forward" in that he could stand in front of the net and get goals from when Datsyuk played horse and scored off of Abby's ass. Darren Helm in 2010-2014 may have been worth 3.85 as the quote "best 3rd line C in hockey". But by the time he signed that 5 year deal, he wasn't a center anymore and he was hardly consistently healthy anymore. It's not a positive to reward players after their usefulness for 7 years or 5 years because you're going to be bad. I could even get behind it if he had just given one or both a year contract at those values if it were a "doing right by his guys". But it's god f***ing awful to give a very mediocre player 30 million dollars over 7 years because he's a good guy. Or 19 million over 5 because you like riding jetskis with him and his family.

Merrill signed for like a stick of gum. Nemeth signed for half of Abdelkader's deal. Staal signed for half of Abdelkader's deal. Pickard was the like fourth goalie.

Sorry man. I just find that level of vitriol to be kind of gross and not even that interesting. I'm not really a "what have you done for me lately" kind of guy.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

As a general observation, I think there are several fans on this board that value things like gritty play a LOT more than I do. And that's ok. But it's a big factor in how I view certain players versus how others do.

I'm not saying I want a roster filled with figure skaters. But I probably think that element is easier to find (or replace) on the open market than other fans do.

I certainly fall into that category. My current favorite RW is Bert. I've been a Helmer fan since "the shift". I know you need dipsy doodlers but without gritty players hockey would be basketball on ice and I don't care for basketball.
I'm also not a armchair capologist. Since the last lockout it seems people are really more into cap hits than actual players or people. Suddenly players become "trash" when they're perceived to have the wrong cap hit that the "imbecile" gm gave them regardless of their entertainment value.

 

[Dotter]

Ken Holland was by far one of the greatest GMs in hockey and was unparalleled after the first lockout. But Holland after lockout #2? He was Michael Jordan with the Washington Wizards or Wayne Gretzky in St. Louis or New York. That doesn't diminish that they are the greatest of all time... but they weren't those guys anymore.

It's a shame seeing people trying to smear Ken Holland's legacy. He's a future HHOF GM, and he's earned it!

 

[jkutswings]

It's a shame seeing people trying to smear Ken Holland's legacy. He's a future HHOF GM, and he's earned it!

He's definitely a first ballot hall of famer.

But he's definitely earned a lot of criticism in the twilight of his storied career.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

It's a shame seeing people trying to smear Ken Holland's legacy. He's a future HHOF GM, and he's earned it!

He's actually a current Hall of Famer. They already inducted him in the 2020 class.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Sorry man. I just find that level of vitriol to be kind of gross and not even that interesting. I'm not really a "what have you done for me lately" kind of guy.

It’s not a “what have you done for me lately.” We are talking 5 years after his big move for Abby and that was literally two goals in one playoff game. We are talking 6 years after his height of his career in Helm.

I’m saying that they were bad deals because the guys did not ever provide 49M of “good memories” to be rewarded with. I think it’s ridiculous to come in with an incredibly bad faith argument, build up your own straw man and then act hurt when someone calls you out on it

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I certainly fall into that category. My current favorite RW is Bert. I've been a Helmer fan since "the shift". I know you need dipsy doodlers but without gritty players hockey would be basketball on ice and I don't care for basketball.
I'm also not a armchair capologist. Since the last lockout it seems people are really more into cap hits than actual players or people. Suddenly players become "trash" when they're perceived to have the wrong cap hit that the "imbecile" gm gave them regardless of their entertainment value.

Darren Helm hasn’t been that guy who had the badass shift for about 8 years. He hasn’t been a center or consistently healthy for about 5-6 years.

Helm was bad or trending bad by 2014 because he had taken a beating and couldn’t stay healthy. Definitely by 2016, he was ready to be in a greatly scaled back role. But he was signed to a 5 year deal and ran out as a top 6 wing which he was not capable of being.

Justin Abdelkader was a good grindy 4th line guy. That was the role he succeeded in. But he was extended to a contract of 7 years and bumped up to a top 6 role. And if you’re going to try to tell me that Cleary-Datsyuk-Abdelkader was an entertaining line… I have some oceanfront property in Arizona for you.

Caring about people or supporting people is a good thing. But Justin Abdelkader was never a top line player and was never entertaining in that role. Darren Helm was never a good top 6 winger. His whole skill was in being a redux of Kris Draper with speed and F/O ability. You can’t hand out top line roles to guys because they are good guys or good soldiers.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Darren Helm hasn’t been that guy who had the badass shift for about 8 years. He hasn’t been a center or consistently healthy for about 5-6 years.

Helm was bad or trending bad by 2014 because he had taken a beating and couldn’t stay healthy. Definitely by 2016, he was ready to be in a greatly scaled back role. But he was signed to a 5 year deal and ran out as a top 6 wing which he was not capable of being.

Justin Abdelkader was a good grindy 4th line guy. That was the role he succeeded in. But he was extended to a contract of 7 years and bumped up to a top 6 role. And if you’re going to try to tell me that Cleary-Datsyuk-Abdelkader was an entertaining line… I have some oceanfront property in Arizona for you.

Caring about people or supporting people is a good thing. But Justin Abdelkader was never a top line player and was never entertaining in that role. Darren Helm was never a good top 6 winger. His whole skill was in being a redux of Kris Draper with speed and F/O ability. You can’t hand out top line roles to guys because they are good guys or good soldiers.

Yup still not that interesting.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH VRANA OR ERNE...

Please get back on topic

 

[TheOctopusKid]

He's definitely a first ballot hall of famer.

But he's definitely earned a lot of criticism in the twilight of his storied career.

God I loved Ken Holland. No one was a bigger Holland apologist than me. And to this day, I still believe that he was such a reliable captain of the SS Red Wing for so long and that he careful, methodical, almost dogmatic approach the game was like a well oiled clock. That the most important moves, we're the ones you often didn't take (07 Datsyuk Trade) as the ones you did. He was so calm and patient - never a rash move. It was like a clock but once that clock slipped behind and lost time, he just didn't have the mentality to be able to make the big enough moves to get it back on track. It didn't really set in until the total absence of a backup plan to missing out on Parise and Suter. I think I wrote a big post following it that I was off the Holland train at that point. It was clear to me despite being a great GM for the Wings when they were a veteran crew and he was mostly looking to convince elder statesmen to join in smaller roles at reduce prices, or to trade away 1st Rd picks and prospects for the biggest name he could find on the deadline - always a crowd pleaser. It was apparent that we needed someone else other than Holland. He was not a wartime Consigliere - and we were going to need one. Unfortunately, his careful, veteran-centric, risk averse, name brand loyalty approach just flat out did not work and we crashed.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Back on topic, I'm not remotely worried about the hearings. Even if Vrana goes to arb... it's a negotiation tool that the player has. There has been no indication that he's looking to bolt ASAP. The only thing that would worry me is the negotiation getting contentious like Vrana gets it in his head he wants like 8M or something crazy. And for Erne, he could get launched into the sun and it wouldn't affect our rebuild at all. So, he's either going to get a decent contract in line with comparables or he'll leave.

 

[SirKillalot]

As a general observation, I think there are several fans on this board that value things like gritty play a LOT more than I do. And that's ok. But it's a big factor in how I view certain players versus how others do.

I'm not saying I want a roster filled with figure skaters. But I probably think that element is easier to find (or replace) on the open market than other fans do.

I agree. I want tenacious skilled players, but not crash & bang players.
Last championship, top 9 was mostly built that way. Besides Holmstrom.

Vrana and Erne can be that kind of players.
If they are around when Detroit becomes a contender, that waits to be seen.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Back on topic, I'm not remotely worried about the hearings. Even if Vrana goes to arb... it's a negotiation tool that the player has. There has been no indication that he's looking to bolt ASAP. The only thing that would worry me is the negotiation getting contentious like Vrana gets it in his head he wants like 8M or something crazy. And for Erne, he could get launched into the sun and it wouldn't affect our rebuild at all. So, he's either going to get a decent contract in line with comparables or he'll leave.

There's no way Yzerman is going to give him term at market value. Why wouldn't he take the year and hit the market for a massive payday with security and maybe even a chance to win? What does Detroit have to offer that entices him?

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

There's no way Yzerman is going to give him term at market value. Why wouldn't he take the year and hit the market for a massive payday with security and maybe even a chance to win? What does Detroit have to offer that entices him?

Because Vrana isn't a UFA next year. He's a 2 year RFA still. Even if he takes a one year deal like Bertuzzi did last year. He's still going to get at least a 2 year deal next year as Yzerman isn't going to straight to free agency without at least eating one UFA year.