Friedman: Dvorak’s name is out there, Minnesota interested (again)

[exporta]

Amirov, Kerfoot, 2022 1st or 2nd? Get your high potential ELC, inexpensive center and a pick for the rebuild.

Way too much for the leafs.

 

[RussosBurner]

I have very little interest in Dvorak as a Wild fan. Not that he wouldn't be an upgrade from Victor Rask, but really who wouldn't be at this point. I'd like the Wild to aim a little higher than that and if we strike out on Eichel, Reinhart, Monohan, et al then maybe circle back to Dvorak as a fall back if he's still there. But there's no way the Wild should be including Rossi, Boldy, or Fiala for him. He's a fine player but really doesn't do much for me now and I don't see him improving much from what his production has historically been. Truth be told if it comes down to it I'd rather Minnesota sign a stop gap like Stastny or something versus sending prime assets for Dvorak.

 

[Rebels57]

Arizona been bad for so long they dont even know what players are worth anymore.

 

[AKL]

Here's a list of some players Fiala has produced similarly to, while playing with garbage can linemates for the last two years:

Barzal
Gaudreau
Nylander
Svechnikov
M. Tkachuk
Boeser
DeBrincat
Konecny
Hertl
Forsberg

Some other guys he's ahead of:

Laine
Reinhart
Horvat
Seguin
Karlsson
Vrana
Mantha
Garland

If someone could point out to me which of these players played with the likes of Marcus Johansson, Victor Rask, Ryan Hartman, and washed up versions of Mikko Koivu and Eric Staal, I'd be open to discussing the level of player he is further.

Here's the same list for Dvorak (by the way, off the bat, if you were wondering, Fiala is 56th, Dvorak is 173rd):

Parise
Saad
Henrique
Donskoi
Copp
Eller
Jarnkrok
Domi
J. Staal
Stastny
Pearson
M. Foligno

Do we all understand the difference between those two lists?

 

[ctmagic]

I have very little interest in Dvorak as a Wild fan. Not that he wouldn't be an upgrade from Victor Rask, but really who wouldn't be at this point. I'd like the Wild to aim a little higher than that and if we strike out on Eichel, Reinhart, Monohan, et al then maybe circle back to Dvorak as a fall back if he's still there. But there's no way the Wild should be including Rossi, Boldy, or Fiala for him. He's a fine player but really doesn't do much for me now and I don't see him improving much from what his production has historically been. Truth be told if it comes down to it I'd rather Minnesota sign a stop gap like Stastny or something versus sending prime assets for Dvorak.

Post lost all credibility when you mentioned Monahan with those other options.

 

[RussosBurner]

Post lost all credibility when you mentioned Monahan with those other options.

Sorry Mr. Magic, I forgot to check with you before I posted my opinion.

 

[rt]

Here's the same list for Dvorak (by the way, off the bat, if you were wondering, Fiala is 56th, Dvorak is 173rd):

Parise
Saad
Henrique
Donskoi
Copp
Eller
Jarnkrok
Domi
J. Staal
Stastny
Pearson
M. Foligno

Do we all understand the difference between those two lists?

I know you know better than this. JEE is a 0.36ppg player in his career. Nick Schmaltz is 0.60ppg but we both know who’s more valuable. AINEC. You’re way too knowledgeable for that level of analysis.

 

[ctmagic]

Sorry Mr. Magic, I forgot to check with you before I posted my opinion.

check with anyone from the Calgary fan base, or literally anyone that’s watched him play over the last few seasons.

 

[RussosBurner]

check with anyone from the Calgary fan base, or literally anyone that’s watched him play over the last few seasons.

He's a three time 30 goal scorer and twice got to 27. Dvorak has never touched 20. He's not as good of a skater as Dvorak but he's bigger which is also a need among the Wild's forward group. I'd rather have Monahan, just a personal opinion. Which is not to say he's my preference out of all the options but he is ahead of Dvorak for me

 

[AKL]

I know you know better than this. JEE is a 0.36ppg player in his career. Nick Schmaltz is 0.60ppg but we both know who’s more valuable. AINEC. You’re way too knowledgeable for that level of analysis.

JEE is also a better player than Dvorak, and Fiala is a much better player than Schmaltz. Your point has merit to a degree, but when the gap is as large as it is between Fiala and Dvorak offensively, and Dvorak doesn't provide Selke caliber defense like Ek does, it doesn't mean a whole lot.

It doesn't change the fact that Fiala produces like a first liner, and Dvorak produces like a low end second/high end third liner. When you consider who they've gotten to play with the last couple of years, and the eye test, it's not close. Dvorak being a center doesn't carry enough weight to close the gap. They are two completely different tiers of player.

 

[Eegs]

Rask, Beckman and a 2nd or 3rd for Dvorak?

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

Dvorak for #25 + Addison + Rask

10 points if you really understand this

What happened to Domi?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

What happened to Domi?

Traded for Galchenyuk. Which is cancelled out by the Galchenyuk that's supposed to be on the other side.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

You’d forget that Dvorak is a middle-six center if you were reading some of these asks. 1st + lesser prospect is all that really makes sense. Sure he’s on a fair deal for a long time, but the dude is a 40-45 point pace guy the last 3 years. I’m not about to give up a top prospect for that. If they don’t have any reason to move him like they’re fans are saying, then there’s nothing to talk about here. Move along to the next option.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

Traded for Galchenyuk. Which is cancelled out by the Galchenyuk that's supposed to be on the other side.

Ah so that’s the side of the equation I’m missing.

 

[AKL]

Rask, Beckman and a 2nd or 3rd for Dvorak?

I think this is somewhat in line with what it should be, depending on how Arizona values Beckman.

It's more or less a grab bag of two of these types of pieces:
Beckman
Marat
Khovanov
Firstov
1st
2nd

Which two pieces it ends up being are going to, again, depend on how Arizona and Minnesota each value them. For instance, I wouldn't give 1st+Marat or 1st+Beckman. If they like those prospects, I'd only attach a 2nd.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Ah so that’s the side of the equation I’m missing.

5 points for you.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

5 points for you.

I think I deserve more than that. Guerin would’ve given me at least 8

 

[rt]

I think this is somewhat in line with what it should be, depending on how Arizona values Beckman.

It's more or less a grab bag of two of these types of pieces:
Beckman
Marat
Khovanov
Firstov
1st
2nd

Which two pieces it ends up being are going to, again, depend on how Arizona and Minnesota each value them. For instance, I wouldn't give 1st+Marat or 1st+Beckman. If they like those prospects, I'd only attach a 2nd.

We’ve entered the spiteful lowball phase of trade threads. Haha.

 

[AKL]

We’ve entered the spiteful lowball phase of trade threads. Haha.

It's not really a lowball, it's the value of a 1st+solid prospect for a player who has historically paced for 40-45 points in the top six.

Look, I get it, I've followed the Coyotes for the last couple of years, I even attended many games in 2019-20. Dvorak is a fan favorite like crazy, he's easy to like, he does a lot of things very well. I understand not wanting to move him. You guys don't have much center depth after him, he's on a good contract for several more years. I understand. I even think he could probably hit 50-55 in our top six. But I'm also not going to pretend he's worth Rossi or Boldy or Fiala just because you guys don't want to move him, to humor you (even if he would hit 50 points here).

If you guys don't want to engage in discussion because you think I'm lowballing you, fine, but an offer like what's highlighted above is much closer to reality than Rossi for Dvorak. Maybe we'll get to see that become true in real life, maybe not.

EDIT: You even said earlier in this thread you had Rossi as your third rated prospect in his draft or something similar. Look at other prospects in his tier across the league. Alex Turcotte, Dylan Cozens, Lucas Raymond, etc. Do you think it's reasonable to suggest your middle six center should return one of those?

 

[rt]

It's not really a lowball, it's the value of a 1st+solid prospect for a player who has historically paced for 40-45 points in the top six.

Look, I get it, I've followed the Coyotes for the last couple of years, I even attended many games in 2019-20. Dvorak is a fan favorite like crazy, he's easy to like, he does a lot of things very well. I understand not wanting to move him. You guys don't have much center depth after him, he's on a good contract for several more years. I understand. I even think he could probably hit 50-55 in our top six. But I'm also not going to pretend he's worth Rossi or Boldy or Fiala just because you guys don't want to move him, to humor you (even if he would hit 50 points here).

If you guys don't want to engage in discussion because you think I'm lowballing you, fine, but an offer like what's highlighted above is much closer to reality than Rossi for Dvorak. Maybe we'll get to see that become true in real life, maybe not.

No it’s not.

 

[Flameshomer]

Ok I need a sense from coyotes fans on what you think the missing piece in this trade is:

Monahan+ ? = Garland + dvorak

 

[AKL]

No it’s not.

You even said earlier in this thread you had Rossi as your third rated prospect in his draft or something similar. Look at other prospects in his tier across the league. Alex Turcotte, Dylan Cozens, Lucas Raymond, etc. Do you think it's reasonable to suggest your middle six center should return one of those? Let's try to separate what you want from what's reasonable here. I don't want to trade Dumba, but if we do trade him, I understand it's not going to be for Jamie Drysdale or Bowen Byram.

So how is something equivalent to 1st+good prospect not in line with his value?

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

No it’s not.

In what world is a guy whose career high pace is 45 points, that’s pace mind you, is worth a blue chip prospect? Wennberg would probably give us near identical production, though he lacks some of the all-around play, and he wouldn’t cost us anything via FA. In fact, we could probably get him for much less than Dvorak’s current AAV.

I get not wanting to trade your guy unless it’s an overpay; you don’t have any reason to move Dvorak. But, let’s not pretend the the demand of Rossi isn’t silly

 

[XX]

It's not really a lowball, it's the value of a 1st+solid prospect for a player who has historically paced for 40-45 points in the top six.

It's the top six of one of the worst teams in the league offensively. The Wild scored nearly 20% more in all situations. And if the Coyotes are barely a 1 line team, Dvorak had the honor of shoveling shit on the 2nd last year with such glorious names as Tyler Pitlick and Drake Caggiula. He often gets assigned Kessel babysitting duty. And this on a team receiving zero coaching.

The reason Minny keeps calling for him is that he's capable of playing at a level twice the face value of his contract, like in 19-20. It's worth it to call to see if the new GM is willing to finally let him go. Minny is paying Victor Rask ~450k less to be less than half as good, and Dvorak is controlled for four years. GMs care about winning, not draft pokemon, so they call. That contract is golden and he'll shine on a team with actual depth and coaching.

You just aren't getting Dvorak for a B prospect and a middling pick. That's a lowball. You've never been able to get a middle age 2C without flaws with excellent control for that amount.