Do you think if Kucherov were Canadian and McDavid were Russian there'd be a different narrative?

[lawrence]

Remember when Ovi failed to pass 2'd round of Playoffs for a long time?

this has nothing to do with Ovi Being Russian.

This was a standard HFboards used on players they disliked, "Well he hasn't won shit, so he hasn't proved anything Narrative."

This was used heavily on Crosby for not winning anything important, and he was Canadian. He got so much flack from Hfboards, and more importantly Roberto Luongo took a lot of hit for also not winning anything important he's also a Canadian. So in return Ovi will obviously get the same treatment for also not winning anything important.

It goes true to today. Leafs fans poke fun of Mcdavid for not leading his team. In return other fans also poke fun of Matthews for unable to win a damn round. 3 goals combined between him and Marner in the last 23 NHL playoff games? That's horrible.

I really don't think nationality has anything to do with anything more. Cole Caulfield is American. He's doing good and getting good attention for it.

 

[Pockets16]

McdAvid has an absolute horrible team built around him.

other than Draisatl and Nurse they have Mike the 40 year old virgin Smith and Yamamoto ( yakupov clone )

they are not a well built team and one player does not make a team..

Lol according to Oiler fans, Drasatil is the 2nd best player in the league and Nurse a Norris level defender. That isn't enough help for a generational player?

 

[psycat]

this is almost near horse shit level. If we got Mcdavid and Kucherov to switch places right now, I think the Lighting would already punched their way to the Stanley cup final. Even that, If we got them to switch places at the start of the season, I don't even think Kucherov with the Oilers roster would have even put up close to the amount of points Mcdavid just did.

Kucherov quite frankly has the best team in the NHL to play. Mcdavid is quite the opposite. In one night you shut down Kucherov, but they have other stars to really pick it up. You can't say the same for the Oilers, as the team currently is depending on Mcdavid and Drai. Tampa has like 5 star players on top of that, great depth. Oilers have 2 star players and no depth.

I also don't see much of a different narrative since Don Cherry does work anymore and most of us already aknowledged Khucherov as one of the best players.

Sure but Harvey, Richard etc are ranked as high as they are solely because they played on great teams, Roy is sometimes ranked ahead of Hasek solely based on playoffs, only reason a player like Doughty is mentioned with one like Karlsson is teams and so on. Difference is of course the Kucherov has a higher regular season peak aswell as being a godly playoff performer while McSwept flubbed the puck a couple of times and got gifted a couple of points by Draisaitl these playoffs.

That's the reason there is bias. Either you have to conclude that playoffs are meaningless and have close to no relevance when ranking players or you have to put equal weight on them across the board even if you don't like what that means.

No doubt in my mind Kucherov would find a way to win atleast a couple of the games if he and McDavid swapped places this playoffs. Of course impossible to know but that's why we can only go by what they have actually accomplished, and Kucherov has just done more so far.

 

[geoo9]

this is almost near horse shit level. If we got Mcdavid and Kucherov to switch places right now, I think the Lighting would already punched their way to the Stanley cup final. Even that, If we got them to switch places at the start of the season, I don't even think Kucherov with the Oilers roster would have even put up close to the amount of points Mcdavid just did.

Kucherov quite frankly has the best team in the NHL to play. Mcdavid is quite the opposite. In one night you shut down Kucherov, but they have other stars to really pick it up. You can't say the same for the Oilers, as the team currently is depending on Mcdavid and Drai. Tampa has like 5 star players on top of that, great depth. Oilers have 2 star players and no depth.

I also don't see much of a different narrative since Don Cherry does work anymore and most of us already aknowledged Khucherov as one of the best players.

I rememer that TBL with Kuch without Vasylevsky, without Point wihout even Stamkos played well and deep at playoffs - it is not like that they were ultra team since 2015

 

[Oddbob]

McDavid doesn't elevate his team? Are you for real? If McDavid was not on the Oilers with no one to replace him, they would cruise to bottom place in the league most years if not every year. The only reason the Oilers are even expected to win or get to the playoffs is because of McDavid and Draisaitl and that is it. If you trade McDavid for Kucherov, I doubt greatly that Kucherov is as good for Edmonton as McDavid is for Edmonton. Kucherov is a phenomenal player, but he also gets to play on a top tier team, so it is easier to say he elevates his team. The Oilers go as high as McDavid can lug them on his back, plain and simple. Not McDavid's fault that his team hasn't been built a lot better by now, with past loser GMs who screwed the pooch.

 

[Oddbob]

I rememer that TBL with Kuch without Vasylevsky, without Point wihout even Stamkos played well and deep at playoffs - it is not like that they were ultra team since 2015

Meh, Tampa has been the team to beat for at least 5 years now. There is a reason why most are surprised it took them till last year to win the Cup. In today's cap environment they are as close to an allstar team as you can really get.

 

[MrGeno101]

Mcdavid has generational speed, kucherov has generational hockey iq. And right now it looks like hockey iq is more suitable for the playoffs and if you have eyes for hockey (more than flashy plays) you would see the greatness of Kuch!

 

[daver]

McDavid doesn't elevate his team? Are you for real? If McDavid was not on the Oilers with no one to replace him, they would cruise to bottom place in the league most years if not every year. The only reason the Oilers are even expected to win or get to the playoffs is because of McDavid and Draisaitl and that is it. If you trade McDavid for Kucherov, I doubt greatly that Kucherov is as good for Edmonton as McDavid is for Edmonton. Kucherov is a phenomenal player, but he also gets to play on a top tier team, so it is easier to say he elevates his team. The Oilers go as high as McDavid can lug them on his back, plain and simple. Not McDavid's fault that his team hasn't been built a lot better by now, with past loser GMs who screwed the pooch.

It's McDavid's fault that he wasn't anywhere close to his regular season production in the playoffs this year. He has to prove that his game can be as effective in the playoffs which are a different animal from the regular season.

 

[bobholly39]

Kucherov/McDavid isn't that dissimilar to Ovechkin/Crosby

Crosby had all the hype, everyone knew he was best/would be - but then this player from Russia Ovi tops him in 2008 in spectacular season and keeps going, and you start to ask questions...

I think the difference is - Kucherov in 2018-2019 vs McDavid in 2018-2019 was closer than Ovi vs Crosby in 2008 (especially if looking at regular season only). And then - Ovechkin followed that up with his 2009 season + playoffs, and 2010 season, which were just as good. Crosby did great here too, but Ovi was pacing him and even surpassing him in those 3 seasons.

Kucherov didn't follow up his 2018-2019 season. He was pretty good in 2019-2020, but he had a slow start which landed him behind league leaders. Then he missed all of last season.

I think for Kucherov to be compared advantageously to McDavid (or even simply as equal) - he needs to pace/top him again in the regular season. Ovi did so to Crosby 3x in a row. Kucherov did it once, and just barely, and did so in a historic season for Tampa (ie great team). So people see it more as a 'perfect storm' of a season, than something repeatable.

 

[Oddbob]

It's McDavid's fault that he wasn't anywhere close to his regular season production in the playoffs this year. He has to prove that his game can be as effective in the playoffs which are a different animal from the regular season.

Who does McDavid have with him? He can't do it by himself. Playoffs are always tougher to score, no matter the player, and when you have largely a mediocre team as the Oilers are, it becomes easier to shut down the top guys when no one else is doing anything at all. If McDavid was on TB or other really good team, no one would be talking about him not being good at playoff time.

 

[daver]

Who does McDavid have with him? He can't do it by himself. Playoffs are always tougher to score, no matter the player, and when you have largely a mediocre team as the Oilers are, it becomes easier to shut down the top guys when no one else is doing anything at all. If McDavid was on TB or other really good team, no one would be talking about him not being good at playoff time.

(1) Who did he have with him in the regular season when he was putting up a 150 point season pace?

(2) If the Oilers lost despite McDavid's expected elite production, then you may have a point.

(3) Lots of other star players have been able to produce close to their regular season production despite also being the focus of the other team. It's not a good excuse for McDavid. You don't think that teams focus on Crosby, OV, Kucherov etc...?

(4) Lots of people see that McDavid's strength, his speed, do not translate as well in the playoffs until proven otherwise.

 

[Oddbob]

(1) Who did he have with him in the regular season when he was putting up a 150 point season pace?

(2) If the Oilers lost despite McDavid's expected elite production, then you may have a point.

(3) Lots of other star players have been able to produce close to their regular season production despite also being the focus of the other team. It's not a good excuse for McDavid. You don't think that teams focus on Crosby, OV, Kucherov etc...?

(4) Lots of people see that McDavid's strength, his speed, do not translate as well in the playoffs until proven otherwise.

1) Answered 1st already. In the playoffs if is always tighter, and teams focus extra attention to the top guys. Edmonton has no secondary pieces capable of anything, so focus on Connor and the Oilers are done.

2) 2 is also answered in 1.

3) Pretty sure Crosby, OV and Kucherov had actual talent to play with. Not even remotely comparable.

4) McDavid will be fine IF he goes elsewhere or Edmonton gets some talent other than Draisaitl to accompany him. If Kucherov was on Edmonton they would have lost as well. If Crosby was on Edmonton they would have lost as well, and if OV was on Edmonton they would have lost as well.

EDIT - Also going to add that Crosby has had lots of only pt a game in the playoffs in 1st round knockouts in his career.

 

[daver]

1) Answered 1st already. In the playoffs if is always tighter, and teams focus extra attention to the top guys. Edmonton has no secondary pieces capable of anything, so focus on Connor and the Oilers are done.

2) 2 is also answered in 1.

3) Pretty sure Crosby, OV and Kucherov had actual talent to play with. Not even remotely comparable.

4) McDavid will be fine IF he goes elsewhere or Edmonton gets some talent other than Draisaitl to accompany him. If Kucherov was on Edmonton they would have lost as well. If Crosby was on Edmonton they would have lost as well, and if OV was on Edmonton they would have lost as well.

EDIT - Also going to add that Crosby has had lots of only pt a game in the playoffs in 1st round knockouts in his career.

All you are showing here is that the Oilers are not a deep team; not that McDavid should not share any responsibility for the team's loss when his production was well below what would be expected from a player of his caliber.

So either:

McDavid's regular season #'s are not representative of his talent level and therefore should be held to a lower standard in the playoffs

or

His talents are best shown in the regular season against lesser competition, less tight checking, less game planning, etc...

You cannot give him credit for his regular season without holding him to the same standard in the playoffs.

 

[Oddbob]

All you are showing here is that the Oilers are not a deep team; not that McDavid should not share any responsibility for the team's loss when his production was well below what would be expected from a player of his caliber.

So either:

McDavid's regular season #'s are not representative of his talent level and therefore should be held to a lower standard in the playoffs

or

His talents are best shown in the regular season against lesser competition, less tight checking, less game planning, etc...

You cannot give him credit for his regular season without holding him to the same standard in the playoffs.

You completely skipped my point. What about Crosby? He must not be good either as he has had more than 5 season of 1st rnd exits where he had a pt a game only or worse. What about McDavid having 9 pts last year in only 4 games? Virtually every single player must suck then, because even Gretzky and Lemieux and many others had worse PPG in the playoffs than in the regular season. I guess almost no one can handle the tight checking and lower scoring of the playoffs.

 

[daver]

You completely skipped my point. What about Crosby? He must not be good either as he has had more than 5 season of 1st rnd exits where he had a pt a game only or worse. What about McDavid having 9 pts last year in only 4 games? Virtually every single player must suck then, because even Gretzky and Lemieux and many others had worse PPG in the playoffs than in the regular season. I guess almost no one can handle the tight checking and lower scoring of the playoffs.

That was a "play-in" against the 24th seeded team in very unusual circumstances. Points to McDavid's ability to exploit weaker competition/ less competitive circumstances but not be nearly as effective in the usually tighter playoff environment.

 

[geoo9]

Virtually every single player must suck then, because even Gretzky and Lemieux and many others had worse PPG in the playoffs than in the regular season. I guess almost no one can handle the tight checking and lower scoring of the playoffs.

and here comes a Kuch who have better PPG at playoffs so ?

 

[daver]

You completely skipped my point. What about Crosby? He must not be good either as he has had more than 5 season of 1st rnd exits where he had a pt a game only or worse. What about McDavid having 9 pts last year in only 4 games? Virtually every single player must suck then, because even Gretzky and Lemieux and many others had worse PPG in the playoffs than in the regular season. I guess almost no one can handle the tight checking and lower scoring of the playoffs.

You do realize that "worse" is relative right?

Not leading your team in scoring, not leading the playoffs in scoring or PPG are things to consider when evaluating a player's offensive contribution.

Sorry, McDavid needed to be better in order for the Oilers to win that series against a lower seeded team who he torched in the regular season. There is no way to sugarcoat it.

 

[daver]

Kucherov/McDavid isn't that dissimilar to Ovechkin/Crosby

Crosby had all the hype, everyone knew he was best/would be - but then this player from Russia Ovi tops him in 2008 in spectacular season and keeps going, and you start to ask questions...

I think the difference is - Kucherov in 2018-2019 vs McDavid in 2018-2019 was closer than Ovi vs Crosby in 2008 (especially if looking at regular season only). And then - Ovechkin followed that up with his 2009 season + playoffs, and 2010 season, which were just as good. Crosby did great here too, but Ovi was pacing him and even surpassing him in those 3 seasons.

Kucherov didn't follow up his 2018-2019 season. He was pretty good in 2019-2020, but he had a slow start which landed him behind league leaders. Then he missed all of last season.

I think for Kucherov to be compared advantageously to McDavid (or even simply as equal) - he needs to pace/top him again in the regular season. Ovi did so to Crosby 3x in a row. Kucherov did it once, and just barely, and did so in a historic season for Tampa (ie great team). So people see it more as a 'perfect storm' of a season, than something repeatable.

McDavid's playoff resume may also make things closer between him and the best of the rest (Kuch, Mac and maybe Drai if he continues to outperform McD in the playoffs) than their regular season resumes would normally dictate.

I know you weren't putting either player on the Crosby/OV level but I don't think you can say that either McDavid or Kucherov have reached Crosby/OV peak level when both the RS and the POs are considered.

 

[Oddbob]

You do realize that "worse" is relative right?

Not leading your team in scoring, not leading the playoffs in scoring or PPG are things to consider when evaluating a player's offensive contribution.

Sorry, McDavid needed to be better in order for the Oilers to win that series against a lower seeded team who he torched in the regular season. There is no way to sugarcoat it.

Again you skip right past the point while making a non point. Every player in the league that was a superstar player has had years where their single performance didn't help their team move on, how is McDavid different than any of them? You think Kuch is skipping to the Conn Smythe in Edmonton, cause I assure you he isn't. I guess Gretzky and company sucked too when they didn't play well enough to get out of the 1st round huh?

 

[daver]

Again you skip right past the point while making a non point. Every player in the league that was a superstar player has had years where their single performance didn't help their team move on, how is McDavid different than any of them? You think Kuch is skipping to the Conn Smythe in Edmonton, cause I assure you he isn't. I guess Gretzky and company sucked too when they didn't play well enough to get out of the 1st round huh?

His 2nd year performance was acceptable but nothing notable. One could say it was well below expectations for the Art Ross winner but given his age it was fine.

Already explained that last year needs to be taken with a large grain of salt.

This year, there are no excuses.

As for the bolded, name a superstar in NHL who doesn't have a single elite performance and I will show you one who is held in much lower regard to their peers who did (Marcel Dionne).

McDavid hasn't shown he can be as elite (i.e. the clear best in the league) as he has been in the regular season. Crosby, OV, Malkin, Kane, Kucherov all have done that i.e met their regular season level of performance.

 

[Oddbob]

His 2nd year performance was acceptable but nothing notable. One could say it was well below expectations for the Art Ross winner but given his age it was fine.

Already explained that last year needs to be taken with a large grain of salt.

This year, there are no excuses.

As for the bolded, name a superstar in NHL who doesn't have a single elite performance and I will show you one who is held in much lower regard to their peers who did (Marcel Dionne).

McDavid hasn't shown he can be as elite (i.e. the clear best in the league) as he has been in the regular season. Crosby, OV, Malkin, Kane, Kucherov all have done that.

Lets see, McDavid has played on a barely playoff team his whole career. Show me another Elite superstar who played their whole career on an Edmonton level team and still somehow did well as a team in the playoffs? Even the best players can't win on their own. All of the players you mentioned played on much MUCH better teams that Won Cups. Show me a year any of them had McDavid's roster to play with. It doesn't exist. Crosby for pete's sake played on a team where their #2 center was Evgeni Malkin. Kane played with Toews and Keith and Seabrook on a team that won 3 Cups in 6 years. Kuch plays on an allstar team and has for basically all his playoff runs.

 

[daver]

Lets see, McDavid has played on a barely playoff team his whole career. Show me another Elite superstar who played their whole career on an Edmonton level team and still somehow did well as a team in the playoffs? Even the best players can't win on their own. All of the players you mentioned played on much MUCH better teams that Won Cups. Show me a year any of them had McDavid's roster to play with. It doesn't exist. Crosby for pete's sake played on a team where their #2 center was Evgeni Malkin. Kane played with Toews and Keith and Seabrook on a team that won 3 Cups in 6 years. Kuch plays on an allstar team and has for basically all his playoff runs.

They were 8th overall in 16/17 and came within one goal of the WCF despite McDavid being 3rd on his team in playoff scoring. That's better than "barely a playoff team". Why didn't McDavid produce more in that year? They may have made the WCF or even the SCF if he put up more than 9 points in 13 games.

I am willing to give him a pass that year but your insistence that he met expectations this year or cannot take any responsibility for them being swept forces the issue. The Oilers were 11th overall in the league and favored against the Jets.

McDavid, for pete's sake, played on a LINE with Drai, the reigning Art and Hart, let alone, simply having him on his team.

 

[bobholly39]

McDavid's playoff resume may also make things closer between him and the best of the rest (Kuch, Mac and maybe Drai if he continues to outperform McD in the playoffs) than their regular season resumes would normally dictate.

I know you weren't putting either player on the Crosby/OV level but I don't think you can say that either McDavid or Kucherov have reached Crosby/OV peak level when both the RS and the POs are considered.

The bolded - that's a bit of a loaded statement. Here's how I view it:

Single season peak - both Kucherov and McDavid have absolutely reached the level of single season peak of Ovi/Crosby. Whatever order you rank them 1-4, I think they're same level, and I could see arguments for many different rankings 1 to 4.

Playoff peak - Kucherov has absolutely reached peak Crosby/Ovi level for peak playoffs. Again - you can rank them in any order for playoff peak you want 1 to 3, but I could see arguments for a few different ways. I'd probably go Crosby, Kucherov, Ovi as of now, but close. McDavid - well yeah, obviously he hasn't yet.

Extended peak - this is where Kucherov struggles. I'd put his 128 point season up against anyone - but when you start including 2nd best, 3rd best and 4th best seasons, well he doesn't hold up as nicely as the other 3. As for Ovi/Crosby/McDavid - I'd put them on the same level for extended peak. Again, you can rank them in any order - i'd have McDavid last still as of today, but that could change soon, and they're pretty comparable level.

Extended playoffs - Crosby is clear #1 here. Tempted to put Kucherov #2 already - it's just not just the last 2 years, he was very good in his earlier runs too, whereas Ovechkin, while good individually, has only gone past round 2 once. McDavid obviously doesn't really factor here yet

So - I guess if you combine overall single season/playoff + extended playoff + season peak, Ov/Crosby have an edge on Kuch/McDavid, but it's closer than your post seemed to imply.

 

[daver]

The bolded - that's a bit of a loaded statement. Here's how I view it:

Single season peak - both Kucherov and McDavid have absolutely reached the level of single season peak of Ovi/Crosby. Whatever order you rank them 1-4, I think they're same level, and I could see arguments for many different rankings 1 to 4.

Playoff peak - Kucherov has absolutely reached peak Crosby/Ovi level for peak playoffs. Again - you can rank them in any order for playoff peak you want 1 to 3, but I could see arguments for a few different ways. I'd probably go Crosby, Kucherov, Ovi as of now, but close. McDavid - well yeah, obviously he hasn't yet.

Extended peak - this is where Kucherov struggles. I'd put his 128 point season up against anyone - but when you start including 2nd best, 3rd best and 4th best seasons, well he doesn't hold up as nicely as the other 3. As for Ovi/Crosby/McDavid - I'd put them on the same level for extended peak. Again, you can rank them in any order - i'd have McDavid last still as of today, but that could change soon, and they're pretty comparable level.

Extended playoffs - Crosby is clear #1 here. Tempted to put Kucherov #2 already - it's just not just the last 2 years, he was very good in his earlier runs too, whereas Ovechkin, while good individually, has only gone past round 2 once. McDavid obviously doesn't really factor here yet

So - I guess if you combine overall single season/playoff + extended playoff + season peak, Ov/Crosby have an edge on Kuch/McDavid, but it's closer than your post seemed to imply.

I meant extended peak/prime.

 

[Reality Czech]

Here's a question: how many people buy a ticket just to see Kucherov play hockey? How many come to see McDavid?

Not a knock on Kucherov, just saying. Marketability matters and McDavid is simply more exciting to watch (not to mention the fact that his PPG average is 4th best all time). Kucherov benefits from playing on a stacked team which is so good that I bet they could win the Cup this year without him. Kuch is a top 10 player in the league right now, but not sure where this obsession of trying to make him #1 comes from. Can't Tampa fans just be happy with the embarrassment of riches they have rather than try to force everyone else to acknowledge Kuch's greatness?