Dion Phaneuf This Season

[Purity*]

well that's the point I am trying to make.

Like - does Dion go all the way back to the double Dion-ing Calgary, "I was nominated for a Norris" days? Probably not, because I think he's too old, and he doesn't want to play that game any more. To me he wants to be more of the "point" getter defenseman but I don't think his game is that strong either.

And I do not see in what world how Babcock can make a player be that good. He can give a system that can play more to Dion's strengths. but we're just going to assume all of his weaknesses (which are many) just poofs away ? that he and Babcock will wear footsie pjs and talk over hot chocolate how now to implode his game under pressure?

[again: HIS personal game. under pressure.]



well that was my original point. I don't know why that had to be flung back into "well you're the only one who mentioned hall of famer" like I was just supposed to go "oh, okay, yeah. they were all old. let's ignore the fact that they are ALSO hall of famers who never really missed a step" hence why I said Gio etc would have been better , and dropped the whole hall of fame thing, . I didn't see the age disclaimer.





exactly.

I am sorry. yes. the team is bad. and not talented enough and all of that. but it's not like Dion was a rose in a bed of thorns here. when the going gets tough, Dion looks really bad. (that St Louis game two years ago was the crux of it). sure does he get a cookie for really being all "pro" last season during the final stretch, sure?

but - i am sorry. he's been captain of a team that melts down under pressure (constantly) and he along with it. A lot of stuff happened last year, that I personally feel shouldn't have happened, should have been squashed. I don't think personally being a captain fits him and he's in the one market that you can't strip it and leave him here because it would be a constant talk point, and I don't think he'll ever wear it here like a glove. I think it will always be like a too small (or too big) shoe for him.


get better. go to a place where it fits him and he's not to go to guy. He's always going to be the go to guy here.

Addressing your 1st point. The Phaneuf in Calgary was freaking awesome which is why I was excited about trading for him the 1st place. You can tell that he played with way more desire and heart. When he was traded to the Leafs, his fire dwindled. I actually didn't mind his play at his 6.5M pricetag up until his decline.

Babcock's system relies on constant puck-pressure and maintaining the attack. I am really skeptical if Dion can actually play this system . In Detroit's most recent glory days, the D-core of Lidstrom/Rafalski/Kronwall was absolutely masterful at that style. Dion, however, I am just not sure if he has it in him.

As for the Leafs recent trainwrecks, you definitely can't put all the blame on Dion, but as captain, how much did he really help the cause? We already know his history of crumbling under pressure, so it brings back the question, is this really a guy you want on the team?

 

[Daisy Jane]

You have made up your mind even though Babock is confident that Dion will be better than we have ever seen him in awhile. I think this is premature and closeminded. You are not even allowing the chance for Dion to succeed. To me this is illogical.

me: I hope he does well.
(yay - he's succeeding).

then we can trade him
(so we can ultimately be better).

listed several times now the issues that he has. that simply don't get better with age. thinks slow, skates slow, can't handle pressure. Fact. Fact. Fact. the one thing out of those three that could probably be impacted strictly by the system is his Skating. and I don't see it.

crap. i even said if he doesn't get traded and he proves me wrong, i'd be okay with it. like. like i'm not sitting here "gee golly wiz, I really hope he sucks this season."

Point is, you are closed to Dion being a Leaf. That's okay, it is your right, but just admit there is nothing he can do that will put him on your side. Despite all the reasons I put up if he has a great year under Babcock.

I don't have to admit. I've stated it. I've pretty much closed the book to the majority of this team a long time ago. I personally don't think they fit here. Because of their contracts I don't think they work if you just slide them down. (but i'm cheap like that). would really like to just start all things fresh.

the chances of that happening may not happen as fast as I like - it might not happen at all. If Dion proves me wrong - and doesn't get traded, I'm not going to mutter in my bowl of ice cream why he's still on the team. I'll still cheer for him. If he's playing better and people give him crap, I'll defend him. Come Sept. 15th like I always do. I treat this season fresh and if they are on the team. I will support them.

I just believe that most of them will be gone in the next three years. Including Dion.

I think he can be a 30-something D man on this team when it turns around. Remember, Shanny has said the plan can change at any moment. We may have Stamkos next year. We may need a Babcock improved Dion somewhere down the line. Is this not possible?

Sure. it's possible. I never said it wasn't.
all I said was. I hope Lamoriello capitalizes on his best. Because while You think he can be something of note. I. do. not. if he's here. I hope he proves me wrong. can't be anymore clearer than that.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Addressing your 1st point. The Phaneuf in Calgary was freaking awesome which is why I was excited about trading for him the 1st place. You can tell that he played with way more desire and heart. When he was traded to the Leafs, his fire dwindled. I actually didn't mind his play at his 6.5M pricetag up until his decline.

Babcock's system relies on constant puck-pressure and maintaining the attack. I am really skeptical if Dion can actually play this system . In Detroit's most recent glory days, the D-core of Lidstrom/Rafalski/Kronwall was absolutely masterful at that style. Dion, however, I am just not sure if he has it in him.

As for the Leafs recent trainwrecks, you definitely can't put all the blame on Dion, but as captain, how much did he really help the cause? We already know his history of crumbling under pressure, so it brings back the question, is this really a guy you want on the team?

Calgary Point: Exactly. Calgary Dion kinda got lost on the way to Toronto. I don't think it helped that he was smucked with the captaincy right off the bat either. I think had they left him be and he was just Dion, things would be a lot better.

And right. and I am not (nor i hope people don't think I am).. I'm not blaming all of the collapses on Dion. However. that's also my point. How much did Dion help the cause. like. I'm sorry maybe i'm romanticising the past and I will admit I don't watch as much hockey as I could - I've never really seen Dion in the past few years really pick up his play to the point where it is "follow me, guys. let's go." when things were bad

I think it doesn't help him.

but you know. whatever.
positive thinking. Babcock will totally transform him and everything will be fantastic.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Calgary Point: Exactly. Calgary Dion kinda got lost on the way to Toronto. I don't think it helped that he was smucked with the captaincy right off the bat either. I think had they left him be and he was just Dion, things would be a lot better.

And right. and I am not (nor i hope people don't think I am).. I'm not blaming all of the collapses on Dion. However. that's also my point. How much did Dion help the cause. like. I'm sorry maybe i'm romanticising the past and I will admit I don't watch as much hockey as I could - I've never really seen Dion in the past few years really pick up his play to the point where it is "follow me, guys. let's go." when things were bad

I think it doesn't help him.

but you know. whatever.
positive thinking. Babcock will totally transform him and everything will be fantastic.

For those old and wise enough to recall. A great Coach can make a huge difference in a player, or in this case A defenceman or in the case of Pat Burns. Plural Defencemen.

Before coming to Toronto. Todd Gill(-22), Dave Ellett-13), Bob Rouse(-20) looked finished as NHL D men on a team not much better than the teams Dion has been on the past 6 years and especially last season when all looked bad.

If you were around then, you would know what Burns did for that defence. Turned them into one of the best collective Defences in the NHL. All ended up in the plus dept, and all improved infinitely under Burns to change the perception of them as valuable players.

Maybe it's hard for some that never saw this transformation to believe Babcock could have a similar effect on players, Dion in this case. I have, and it wouldn't be a surprise to Babcock or myself if it did.

 

[New Liskeard]

that's good. I hope he does.
then we can trade him

Sounds very progressive. Have a player affirm himself as a number 1 D (which he already is) only to trade him to hope the Leafs may draft the same. Could clear out some much needed cap space though.

 

[New Liskeard]

Again. I have to say this.

Babcock is many things. I don 't know if he can take someone and make them into a hall of famer. thinking he can do that for Dion is spock eyebrow raising .

When exactly did Babcock say the will turn Phaneuf into a "hall of famer"? Quote please, or is this yet another embellishment to push an agenda and bias?

 

[Daisy Jane]

never mind. - i just decided to employ another option instead.

 

[Menzinger]

For me it's not what kind of player Dion will be next season, it's in 3-4 seasons from now when he's still under contract for 7 million a season.

With that much cap space invested into a single player he NEEDS to be one of he best players in the team. If Dion regresses to being a #3 or 4 defender at the age of 34 his cap hit will be downright ugly.

Not every player on this team needs to be 22, but that doesn't mean it's smart for the Leafs to have a player locked up until he's in his late 30s for 7 million.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

When exactly did Babcock say the will turn Phaneuf into a "hall of famer"? Quote please, or is this yet another embellishment to push an agenda and bias?

All Babcock has to do is get Dion to play to a level that will make these contracts look silly with the exception of Giordano. Who Burke got a great deal in at 6.75.

There were some cap hits I wanted to include. Streit and Markov but were only 2 years that were out of place IMO.

Other than Giordano, a great season from Dion under Babcock could make some of these deals look less better than his.

Giordano 6.75M
Boychuck 6M
Green 6M
Marc Staal 5.70M
Seabrook (UFA 2016 summer)stands to get a raise from 5.80M

 

[hotpaws]

I have no idea what some people think Babs can do with Phaneuf ?

DP doesn't posses any skill set that you'd want in a first pairing D nor does he have the iq to compensate for it . He made his name running around playing rover his first 3 years and never developed into the type of player many believed he could be .

He's still living off his first few years and unfortunately he's nothing more than a decent middle pair D at this point .

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I am not comparing Dion Phaneuf to Scott Stevens. But there are some similarities in both players games.

It wasn't until Stevens got to NJ and Lemaire and Lamoriello that he truly became a more intelligent complete player.

It's a parallel worth mentioning.

 

[Liminality]

Phaneuf could get affected by Babcock's system and thrive in it, just as likely that he doesn't.

If he finds something that works for him all of a sudden, makes his game click for him then all the power to him. If he brings his game up a level I think it's a win/win either way when it comes to trading him or keeping him on the team to balance and insulate the rookies.

 

[diceman934]

I have no idea what some people think Babs can do with Phaneuf ?

DP doesn't posses any skill set that you'd want in a first pairing D nor does he have the iq to compensate for it . He made his name running around playing rover his first 3 years and never developed into the type of player many believed he could be .

He's still living off his first few years and unfortunately he's nothing more than a decent middle pair D at this point .

It is easy for people who have their eyes open and watch the game to see that Dion has never been nor will he ever be a # 1 D man.

This thread is worth saving as one that we should come back to along with other past threads. First it was Dion's Coach, then his partners, then some made up injury. Dion said himself that he was tired.....I want to know what he was tired about...he had a long break while the better D man went to the Olympics. Now they are again blaming his coach....Carlyle sheltered him last year and he was still a big failure.

Bad feet, bad decisions and fear are not going to go away....Babcock will not be a fan of all the stupid selfish penalties Dion will take, this will cause a rift between them. I really can not see it ending well for Dion.

 

[Duke Silver]

It is easy for people who have their eyes open and watch the game to see that Dion has never been nor will he ever be a # 1 D man.

This thread is worth saving as one that we should come back to along with other past threads. First it was Dion's Coach, then his partners, then some made up injury. Dion said himself that he was tired.....I want to know what he was tired about...he had a long break while the better D man went to the Olympics. Now they are again blaming his coach....Carlyle sheltered him last year and he was still a big failure.

Bad feet, bad decisions and fear are not going to go away....Babcock will not be a fan of all the stupid selfish penalties Dion will take, this will cause a rift between them. I really can not see it ending well for Dion.

Only in your fantasy world can a player miss practices, leave games early, visibly labour and not be injured.

I'd say never change but it's clear you never will.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I've been saying the same. Our team game has meant that our D-men, once they get the puck, generally have nowhere to go with it. Gardiner and Rielly solve this by simply doing it themselves, but Dion can't do that. Switching to a smarter system should help those D-men that don't have elite skating to rely on.

Exactly

I'm banging my head on the table so hard it hurts jonny.

don't you see the hilarity in the bolded comment?

we can't trade dion right now because no other team wants him and his unearned 7 million dollar cap hit, no one.

the only way we manage to trade dion is IF he can raise the bar and maybe be seen as 6 million cap worthy and of that I even have massive grave doubts about.

the only way dion gets out is if he plays better, better to the point where a 6 million dollar cap hit does not look crippling.

so there comes the double edged sword, right

dion plays better and it will be for some fans "oh oh gotta keep em now, look at em"

where the smarter fans will actually realise, "oh oh, we can now finally trade him, someone might actually want him"

Yeah, what you describe is logic, I posted about a feeling I have.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

I can live with the drop in production, I just wish Dion would crush people like he used to in Calgary...we see 2-3 of those hits per season now.

Hopefully if his ice time is cut down by a few minutes a night, he'll have more in the tank for the physical shenanigans.

 

[ACC1224]

As long as he continues his strong mentoring of Rielly and with a better system where he won't be on an island as much, I'm sure Babcock is going to love having Phaneuf as will the fans.

 

[Mess]

I have no idea what some people think Babs can do with Phaneuf ?

DP doesn't posses any skill set that you'd want in a first pairing D nor does he have the iq to compensate for it . He made his name running around playing rover his first 3 years and never developed into the type of player many believed he could be .

He's still living off his first few years and unfortunately he's nothing more than a decent middle pair D at this point .

Babcock can insulate him by implementing a system of defensive awareness, where the forwards are required to mandatory backcheck and support the defense.

This will reduce odd man rushes against and provide more avenues for the D including Phaneuf to move the puck out of the Leafs zone.

Cutting down shots and scoring chances exposes players less and Jacques Lemaire will assist Phaneuf in defensive positioning.

 

[RLF]

All Babcock has to do is get Dion to play to a level that will make these contracts look silly with the exception of Giordano. Who Burke got a great deal in at 6.75.

There were some cap hits I wanted to include. Streit and Markov but were only 2 years that were out of place IMO.

Other than Giordano, a great season from Dion under Babcock could make some of these deals look less better than his.

Giordano 6.75M
Boychuck 6M
Green 6M
Marc Staal 5.70M
Seabrook (UFA 2016 summer)stands to get a raise from 5.80M

In order for Babcock to get Phaneuf to play well enough to makes those contracts look "silly"...Phaneuf will have to turn into Drew freakin Doughty. Your comparables hurt your case, not help it. Especially when you are saying all Babcock has to do is improve Dion's play enough to make those other contracts look silly.

C'mon man, the guys you are showing make $1mil or less per season and all are arguably as good or better than Dion. $1mil per season is a lot, especially for 6 more seasons. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be retaining $1.2 on Kessel. If Dion was at $5.7 for the next 6 seasons (like Staal), he would have easily been moved by now if the Leafs wanted to move him, but at $5.7 per, they may have wanted to keep him regardless.

As for his glory days in Calgary that he may be able to get back to. That was 7-8 years ago and he has only shown sporadic glimpses of that in T.O.
He was great in Calgary his first 3 1/2 seasons. The last 1 1/2, not so good. Enough to make Calgary want to move him and his contract. He has been here 5 1/2 years. If he was going to be the Dion we saw in the first couple of seasons as a Flame, I think we would have seen it already.

Dion is a solid #2 d-man imo. One that may be a 3-4 his last couple of years of his contract. Something I said when he first signed this extension. He has a lot of miles on that body and I doubt he gets better. As some have said, maybe Babcock can get better team play out of these guys that will help our defence, including Dion, but that won't make him look like the Dion of his early Calgary days. Those days are over, they were years ago.

If Dion was considered a #1 d-man around the league and worth his contract, he would have been moved by now. That's a hard fact to ignore. As you have said, #1's are hard to find, so why hasn't another team offered us a very good package for Dion when it was made clear he is on the market, if he is worth his contract and could improve his play enough to make other contracts look silly? It is because other teams do not see it happening.

He is a solid d-man, but his contract is a bad one, especially with the drop in the Canadian dollar and the cap not likely to rise much, if at all next year.

 

[Parkdale]

In order for Babcock to get Phaneuf to play well enough to makes those contracts look "silly"...Phaneuf will have to turn into Drew freakin Doughty. Your comparables hurt your case, not help it. Especially when you are saying all Babcock has to do is improve Dion's play enough to make those other contracts look silly.

C'mon man, the guys you are showing make $1mil or less per season and all are arguably as good or better than Dion. $1mil per season is a lot, especially for 6 more seasons. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be retaining $1.2 on Kessel. If Dion was at $5.7 for the next 6 seasons (like Staal), he would have easily been moved by now if the Leafs wanted to move him, but at $5.7 per, they may have wanted to keep him regardless.

As for his glory days in Calgary that he may be able to get back to. That was 7-8 years ago and he has only shown sporadic glimpses of that in T.O.
He was great in Calgary his first 3 1/2 seasons. The last 1 1/2, not so good. Enough to make Calgary want to move him and his contract. He has been here 5 1/2 years. If he was going to be the Dion we saw in the first couple of seasons as a Flame, I think we would have seen it already.

Dion is a solid #2 d-man imo. One that may be a 3-4 his last couple of years of his contract. Something I said when he first signed this extension. He has a lot of miles on that body and I doubt he gets better. As some have said, maybe Babcock can get better team play out of these guys that will help our defence, including Dion, but that won't make him look like the Dion of his early Calgary days. Those days are over, they were years ago.

If Dion was considered a #1 d-man around the league and worth his contract, he would have been moved by now. That's a hard fact to ignore. As you have said, #1's are hard to find, so why hasn't another team offered us a very good package for Dion when it was made clear he is on the market, if he is worth his contract and could improve his play enough to make other contracts look silly? It is because other teams do not see it happening.

He is a solid d-man, but his contract is a bad one, especially with the drop in the Canadian dollar and the cap not likely to rise much, if at all next year.

Very well said. Agree with most of this. It will be very difficult to trade him without salary retention (the only way a trade make sense imo). I'm almost resigned that he will still be on the team a long time. Hoping he can at least play well enough under the coach's new system to not be an ongoing side show and keeping fingers crossed that the management can somehow pull off getting rid of this and the other remaining Nonis contract mistakes in an elegant manner.

 

[diceman934]

Dion mentoring Rielly....such a joke! I hope that Rielly does not play with him this year as Rielly does not need to cover for Dion all year.

I posted a list a while back when I said that Dion was a #3 and that is what he is. It has been report that teams where interested in him but with 1.5 to 2 million of retained salary and that was before his game went further south to finish the season. So GM's around the league placed him with the 5M to 5.5M D man when this was reported.

His 7M per a year places him as the 25th highest cap hit of all players currently which makes it impossible to trade him at his cap hit because he is no where near a top 25 league wide player. As a D man his cap hit places him as the 6th highest cap hit.

Do your self a favour and look at a list of D man in the NHL and then see just how many you think he is better than. Then who are at worse the same and you should find yourself with a long list. When I produced my last list I had some names that some thought were wrong (ie ) Nick Leddy he was better than Dion then and now it is abundantly clear.

Here is a link that you can check that has the D man and their current cap hit for this season, make a list but remember to scroll all the way down as at under a Million a year are several that I put as better who are on their ELC.

http://www.spotrac.com/nhl/rankings/cap-hit/defenseman/

IMHO any one who can rank him as a number 1 does not watch hockey or for that matter a number 2. There are more then 60 D man in the league that are better. I will not be reproducing my list again.

 

[diceman934]

Only in your fantasy world can a player miss practices, leave games early, visibly labour and not be injured.

I'd say never change but it's clear you never will.

Yet Dion never said he was injured, only stated after the season that he was tired.

Never change!

 

[Daisy Jane]

As long as he continues his strong mentoring of Rielly and with a better system where he won't be on an island as much, I'm sure Babcock is going to love having Phaneuf as will the fans.

I don't remember reading or hearing that Rielly sees(saw) Phaneuf as a mentor. Not to say they don't talk or what not, but as a pure "I learn a lot from him, he shows me things, he takes me aside after practice" - i don't recall ever seeing that

(and the only reason why I question it is mostly, I remember Jake + Morgan constantly talking about what Robidas has done for them. I truthfully can't remember seeing/hearing that with Dion)

 

[ACC1224]

I don't remember reading or hearing that Rielly sees(saw) Phaneuf as a mentor. Not to say they don't talk or what not, but as a pure "I learn a lot from him, he shows me things, he takes me aside after practice" - i don't recall ever seeing that

(and the only reason why I question it is mostly, I remember Jake + Morgan constantly talking about what Robidas has done for them. I truthfully can't remember seeing/hearing that with Dion)

Me either but it stands to reason that the Captain would help the young guys out. With Rielly being from Western Canada, I'm sure Phaneuf was a player he admired and looked up to.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Me either but it stands to reason that the Captain would help the young guys out. With Rielly being from Western Canada, I'm sure Phaneuf was a player he admired and looked up to.

maybe.
again - just so people don't go i'm pushing an agenda or bias (which. whatever). or just being all negative about him. I just don't remember ever hearing it or it was alluded to. That's why the Robidas thing stood out so strongly for me.