Dion Phaneuf This Season

[Daisy Jane]

And this is why I posted the OP. Babcock is confident that Dion will have his best year. Though I like how you played that statement safe by prefacing HOF. No one claimed this.

well. you were saying this.

I agree with you. Chara was 29 when he signed with Boston. He was 34 when the Bruins won the cup.

Neidermayer was 33 when he signed with Anaheim and was 34 when they won the cup.

Heck, Lidstrom was 38 when he won his last cup.

I find it peculiar why if Dion excels under Babcock, and shows he can be better and a more valuable D man under him that We should trade him.

The illogic on this premise confounds me?

Chara: Hall of Famer, I'd imagine. Neidermayer. Hall of Famer. Lidstrom. Hall of Famer.

Now. one could argue you were just naming really good defensemen who were older who won the cup - however - they were also hall of famers. who were older who won the cup.

Dion is a really good defenceman who could probably excel with Babcock - but what are we considering excel?

I would have said if the goal was to hopefully make him into a Gio type of player, that would have been more realistic I think than listing Chara/Neidemayer/Lidstrom and when they won the Cup.

(and as I was the first to mention trading him and that was Cor's response to me. - my other response had nothing to do with trading Dion for picks) if we traded Dion for even someone his age but better. I'm all for it. considering I have been and always will advocate that the team will always need really good older players on the team.

I just personally feel that Dion needs to go, regardless if he excels under Babcock or not.

 

[Daisy Jane]

What else is Babcock supposed to say in this situation? They couldn't move Phaneuf, so Babcock will have to do his best to turn Phaneuf into the best player he can. Babs has to be confident in his words about Phaneuf to the media because otherwise that will be used against them like Babcock wants Dion gone, creating a controversy before the season even starts.

I wasn't saying anything against Babcock.

I was just saying a lot of people here - have this belief that Babcock is going to magically make a lot of these players be amazing. Now. some will be motivated to prove a lot of people wrong (yay). but It's just.. like i said. Babcock is a really good coach but everyone is expecting like uber miracles and stuff.

the systems that he'll have in place will for sure help Dion. I don't know if that automatically translates into Dion exploding into this uber amazing stud on ice. that's all.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I wasn't saying anything against Babcock.

I was just saying a lot of people here - have this belief that Babcock is going to magically make a lot of these players be amazing. Now. some will be motivated to prove a lot of people wrong (yay). but It's just.. like i said. Babcock is a really good coach but everyone is expecting like uber miracles and stuff.

the systems that he'll have in place will for sure help Dion. I don't know if that automatically translates into Dion exploding into this uber amazing stud on ice. that's all.

Well that's fair I don't think Babcock is a miracle worker, and it's going to take some time for him to gel with the players and transform their game .. A painful process of ups and downs (remember, there will be pain).

In Dion's case, I don't think he'll turn him to a HOF calibre player but a strong #2 defefeceman possibly .. Even if he does I say that it doesn't mean the Leafs won't look to trade him next year.

 

[Menzinger]

I think Dion will respond well to playing under Babcocks systems.

Dion is a good player, but given his age and sizeable contract I think management will do their best to try to trade him by this offseason.

I have a hard time seeing how a 34-36 year old 7 million dollar Dion can be useful to a rebuilding team. Cap space is the main benefit from a Dion trade.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

TTWD, I was rebutting against the claim that he needs even more sheltering and easement, he was

37th in QOC among all D men with 40+ gps last year , he was sheltered last year and now some folks are saying he needs even more? Ta H#ELL with that I say.

18th in Corsi Rel QoC (see here), and that averages to top 30 in the league if you want to argue about the merits of Corsi vs Corsi rel. And of the top 30 in Corsi Rel QoC, he had the 17th highest Corsi rel QoT and 23rd highest o-zone start %. If you want to combine those three numbers into a single difficulty of minutes metric, Phaneuf would almost certainly be top 10 in the league, and the only players who unambiguously had tougher minutes were guys like Girardi, Gorges, Greene, Myers, Mitchell and possibly McDonagh. Of those only Greene and McDonagh managed to put up respectable Corsi rel, and for all his dumb penalty taking Phaneuf drew slightly more than the took.

So yes, it's perfectly reasonable to say he'll likely do better if he were to be eased off into the 30-60 range for difficulty of minutes like other supposedly offensive defensemen.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Sounds like Babcock thinks Dion needs a fair bit of work as a player and as a leader. I'm not a fan of Phaneuf but if we're stuck with him I sure hope Babs can help him especially in the leadership department where he needs to be better at sticking up for his team mates on the ice.

I think he's a pretty good defenceman, nothing amazing but certainly better than he's given credit for. I just don't think he's a good captain and I get the feeling he doesn't inspire the team with his leadership on or off the ice, just my gut feeling about him.

It's gonna be an interesting year just to see who excels or doesn't under Babcock, pretty excited for this season as so much has changed in management/coaching.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

well. you were saying this.





Chara: Hall of Famer, I'd imagine. Neidermayer. Hall of Famer. Lidstrom. Hall of Famer.

Now. one could argue you were just naming really good defensemen who were older who won the cup - however - they were also hall of famers. who were older who won the cup.

Dion is a really good defenceman who could probably excel with Babcock - but what are we considering excel?

I would have said if the goal was to hopefully make him into a Gio type of player, that would have been more realistic I think than listing Chara/Neidemayer/Lidstrom and when they won the Cup.

(and as I was the first to mention trading him and that was Cor's response to me. - my other response had nothing to do with trading Dion for picks) if we traded Dion for even someone his age but better. I'm all for it. considering I have been and always will advocate that the team will always need really good older players on the team.

I just personally feel that Dion needs to go, regardless if he excels under Babcock or not.

For the record. I replied to Cor's post here. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=106582423&postcount=19

There was no mention of HOF defenceman, only that I agreed with Cor that not all the players we keep do not have to be 22 years old, when you suggested that even if Dion has a great year, he should be traded. I pointed out various examples of 30+ year D men being core players on Cup winning teams. Some not HOF'ers.

So we are back to square one. Dion does not have to be traded if he shows he is better under Babcock. As we both know. Shanahan has said the plan can change at any moment. And it already seems to be this, with Dion now not only being given a 2nd chance with the Leafs, but is expected to be better than ever and even as Babcock said, not hung out to dry as he has in the past.

 

[tml19]

Well that's fair I don't think Babcock is a miracle worker, and it's going to take some time for him to gel with the players and transform their game .. A painful process of ups and downs (remember, there will be pain).

In Dion's case, I don't think he'll turn him to a HOF calibre player but a strong #2 defefeceman possibly .. Even if he does I say that it doesn't mean the Leafs won't look to trade him next year.

He already is.

 

[EN4CER]

that's good. I hope he does.
then we can trade him

Straight up!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Straight up!

Would Calgary who has a young core of 19-21 year olds(Bennett, Monahan, Gaudreau) be better off if they trade Mark Giordano because he is 30? This would be a ridiculous idea to most. It is rare a team full of 22 year olds win a cup. Most good teams have diversity, there are young players, young vets, and vets all contributing.

 

[Wendelstache]

never knew babcock was a brain surgeon, in some ways he's going to increase phaneuf's iq and improve his skating?

 

[EN4CER]

Sounds like Babcock thinks Dion needs a fair bit of work as a player and as a leader. I'm not a fan of Phaneuf but if we're stuck with him I sure hope Babs can help him especially in the leadership department where he needs to be better at sticking up for his team mates on the ice.


I think he's a pretty good defenceman, nothing amazing but certainly better than he's given credit for. I just don't think he's a good captain and I get the feeling he doesn't inspire the team with his leadership on or off the ice, just my gut feeling about him.

It's gonna be an interesting year just to see who excels or doesn't under Babcock, pretty excited for this season as so much has changed in management/coaching.

Great post, very fair assessment.

 

[Daisy Jane]

For the record. I replied to Cor's post here. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=106582423&postcount=19


So we are b ack to square one. Dion does not have to be traded if he shows he is better under Babcock. As we both know. Shanahan has said the plan can change at any moment. And it already seems to be this, with Dion now not only being given a 2nd chance with the Leafs, but is expected to be better than ever and even as Babcock said, not hung out to dry as he has in the past.

um. i know w hat post you mentioned.
Cor was quoting me.

Your post #37 listed a potential HOF (Chara). Neidermayer (HOF), and Lidstrom ( HOF). No. you didn't say "Dion is going to be a HOF" but like I said. listing those three wouldn't have been my go to. I would have (as you had since). used Gio as an example.

So while I agree with your premise that we can totally have older defensemen - the quality of defensemen that you listed is much better than Dion .

but whatever. I'm sorry i mentioned hall of famers.

ultimately. I believe that we should trade Dion if he improves his play. we can do better, i feel. I don't know who, before you ask. Not against older players on the team, I've been advocating that for three years. Just don't think Dion is that guy.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

um. i know w hat post you mentioned.
Cor was quoting me.

Your post #37 listed a potential HOF (Chara). Neidermayer (HOF), and Lidstrom ( HOF). No. you didn't say "Dion is going to be a HOF" but like I said. listing those three wouldn't have been my go to. I would have (as you had since). used Gio as an example.

So while I agree with your premise that we can totally have older defensemen - the quality of defensemen that you listed is much better than Dion .

but whatever. I'm sorry i mentioned hall of famers.

ultimately. I believe that we should trade Dion if he improves his play. we can do better, i feel. I don't know who, before you ask. Not against older players on the team, I've been advocating that for three years. Just don't think Dion is that guy.

I mentioned Seabrook also as a core 30 year old Defenceman. I was using the other D men as an age reference.

I don't think we are in position to buy into this they all have to be young players core to win anything. Not all teams need to be built like the most recent example. Chicago. And if you look at them.

They had a 35 year old Hossa play with a 26 year old Toews. They also had a 21 year old Saad play with a key role as a top 6 player. Their best D man and player was a 31 year D man. The ages are well diverse.

All I am saying is, just because Dion is 8 years older than Rielly, if he does play his best hockey under Babcock, he will be a valuable player. I do not see the logic in getting rid of players that prove they belong, rather than ones that play themselves off the team.

Saying that if someone wants to overpay for Dion, JVR or Marner for that matter. No player is untouchable.

 

[Menzinger]

Most players, defencemen included tend to regress as they age into their late 30s

Just because Chara was a top pairing defencemen at 37 doesn't mean Dion will - Chara is a much better player than Dion and an outlier. You can say the same about a player like Libdstrom - who was one of the best NHLers of all time (something Dion is not). These players are exceptions/outliers rather than the norm.

Dion will improve because I suspect Babcock will use him more efficiently. But that doesn't mean he won't decline physically, nor does it mean the Leafs are better off keeping him.

If a team offers a half decent offer, with no cap retaining involved, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat.

 

[diceman934]

never knew babcock was a brain surgeon, in some ways he's going to increase phaneuf's iq and improve his skating?

Quoted for truth!


My god people Dion, is not a top D man who had a bad year, he was an average D man who put up big numbers playing an offensive role in his first few seasons and he fell off and has not been able to reach that same level despite playing on a very good PP since arriving here.

His play against the rush has deteriorated dramatically in front of our eyes as his skating has let him down. His ability to process the game has never been an asset and coupled with his poor skating makes the likely hood of him suddenly becoming a better hockey player impossible. I would bet that Babcock will not like his poor penalties and there will be issues around this aspect of his game.

I hope he has a great season as then we possibly could move him...

Last thing, but can we stop comparing Dion to HOF D man....he will never reach that level.

 

[Leafsrock95]

As long as he gets Dion shooting more 1 timers im happy. Its kinda pathetic he doesn't use his best asset.

 

[Purity*]

um. i know w hat post you mentioned.
Cor was quoting me.

Your post #37 listed a potential HOF (Chara). Neidermayer (HOF), and Lidstrom ( HOF). No. you didn't say "Dion is going to be a HOF" but like I said. listing those three wouldn't have been my go to. I would have (as you had since). used Gio as an example.

So while I agree with your premise that we can totally have older defensemen - the quality of defensemen that you listed is much better than Dion .

but whatever. I'm sorry i mentioned hall of famers.

ultimately. I believe that we should trade Dion if he improves his play. we can do better, i feel. I don't know who, before you ask. Not against older players on the team, I've been advocating that for three years. Just don't think Dion is that guy.

They're pretty terrible comparisons TBH.

Scott Niedermeyer???? Really? Phaneuf is not comparable in any way or fashion to him. Nieds was a terrific skating D-man with a great IQ who aged very well in the league. Lidstrom again.. really? A top D-man of all time with one of the best hockey IQ's ever who again, aged extremely well in the league thanks to his superb IQ, and also is in no way comparable with Phaneuf. Chara IMO is the most comparable of the 3 and even he doesn't fit the bill very well at all. He had a pretty unique trajectory in the league. He wasn't a very known D-man throughout his 20's and once he got to his 30's he really began to shine. Dion is almost the exact opposite ; he had his best years in the young years of his career and his worst years in the league have been his last 2 seasons.

I think your Giordano comparison is much more compatible. But once again, both players have followed a very different trajectory. I definitely agree that we should trade him if he improves. I'd rather have a vet who doesn't cost us 7M$. Can't see any of the previous cup winners in the last while fitting Dion at 7M$ on their team.

 

[Purity*]

I mentioned Seabrook also as a core 30 year old Defenceman. I was using the other D men as an age reference.

I don't think we are in position to buy into this they all have to be young players core to win anything. Not all teams need to be built like the most recent example. Chicago. And if you look at them.

They had a 35 year old Hossa play with a 26 year old Toews. They also had a 21 year old Saad play with a key role as a top 6 player. Their best D man and player was a 31 year D man. The ages are well diverse.

All I am saying is, just because Dion is 8 years older than Rielly, if he does play his best hockey under Babcock, he will be a valuable player. I do not see the logic in getting rid of players that prove they belong, rather than ones that play themselves off the team.

Saying that if someone wants to overpay for Dion, JVR or Marner for that matter. No player is untouchable.

Seabrook doesn't have nearly as big of a cap hit as Phaneuf. Hossa is still a terrific 2-way forward who can easily live up to his cap-hit (not nearly as bad as Phaneuf) and I don't think the Blackhawks would be too fond have having Phaneuf on their roster at 7M$. The guy played like a 4M$ defensemen last season so he's got a ****ton of improvement to do before he can live up to his price tag.

Quoted for truth!


My god people Dion, is not a top D man who had a bad year, he was an average D man who put up big numbers playing an offensive role in his first few seasons and he fell off and has not been able to reach that same level despite playing on a very good PP since arriving here.

His play against the rush has deteriorated dramatically in front of our eyes as his skating has let him down. His ability to process the game has never been an asset and coupled with his poor skating makes the likely hood of him suddenly becoming a better hockey player impossible. I would bet that Babcock will not like his poor penalties and there will be issues around this aspect of his game.

I hope he has a great season as then we possibly could move him...

Last thing, but can we stop comparing Dion to HOF D man....he will never reach that level.

His play over the last 2 seasons has scared the **** out of me. I could live with his 13/14 season because everyone has an off year once in awhile, but he showed zero signs of bouncing back last year and looks to be on a bad decline. If he continues this decline, we are stuck with this 7M$ dud unfortunately. I'm REALLY hoping Babcock can get something done with him.

 

[Gabriel426]

Is Dion over paid? Yes.
Is Dion a bad defender? No.
Is Dion a great defender? No.

Really hope Babcock can bring the best out of Dion, bc he does work hard on and off the ice and deserve better from fans.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I have never been a fan of Dion (unless you count his break through years when every one loved him) but I have a good feeling about him this year and moving forward.

My main problem with him has always been his lack of hockey smarts. Can Babcock make him smarter? No, but he can implement a system that will have the forwards help the defenders (the way hockey is meant to be played) and not only when we dont have the puck but also give him (and the other defenders as well of course) more options when we do have the puck.

I have a sneaky feeling we who wanted Dion out will have to eat some crow when this or next season is up. And I am looking forward to it.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I have never been a fan of Dion (unless you count his break through years when every one loved him) but I have a good feeling about him this year and moving forward.

My main problem with him has always been his lack of hockey smarts. Can Babcock make him smarter? No, but he can implement a system that will have the forwards help the defenders (the way hockey is meant to be played) and not only when we dont have the puck but also give him (and the other defenders as well of course) more options when we do have the puck.

I have a sneaky feeling we who wanted Dion out will have to eat some crow when this or next season is up. And I am looking forward to it.

I've been saying the same. Our team game has meant that our D-men, once they get the puck, generally have nowhere to go with it. Gardiner and Rielly solve this by simply doing it themselves, but Dion can't do that. Switching to a smarter system should help those D-men that don't have elite skating to rely on.

 

[Amadeus]

As long as he gets Dion shooting more 1 timers im happy. Its kinda pathetic he doesn't use his best asset.

He doesn't have it anymore. The Dion Phaneuf of Calgary who was one of the fastest skaters and had one of the hardest shots ever is actually nowhere to be found. He hasn't had it at all since coming to Toronto.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Seabrook doesn't have nearly as big of a cap hit as Phaneuf. Hossa is still a terrific 2-way forward who can easily live up to his cap-hit (not nearly as bad as Phaneuf) and I don't think the Blackhawks would be too fond have having Phaneuf on their roster at 7M$. The guy played like a 4M$ defensemen last season so he's got a ****ton of improvement to do before he can live up to his price tag.



His play over the last 2 seasons has scared the **** out of me. I could live with his 13/14 season because everyone has an off year once in awhile, but he showed zero signs of bouncing back last year and looks to be on a bad decline. If he continues this decline, we are stuck with this 7M$ dud unfortunately. I'm REALLY hoping Babcock can get something done with him.

that's the way I see it (and I agree with your sentiments with what I posted). Like. look. If Dion totally improves his play that is a yay and a half. right there. and yes Babcock can help mitigate some of Dion's issues. but (shrug). I don't know . There are a lot of issues that Dion has that I don't think Babcock can fix. Also. there are all the other issues that swirl around him.

Good Dion = asset.
really good Dion = better asset
I don't know if we'll get a "great" Dion. And I don't even know if Dion got "great" for a season if it would be a consistent thing. Some players get better with age. Sorry, Dion doesn't hit that for me.


If he proves me wrong, i will gladly serve up a murder of crow for me and everyone who has the same feelings.

 

[Reddaye]

It's not a matter of making Dion himself a far better player than he is, or capable of being. It's a matter of getting the players around him to provide more support on the defensive side of the game.

The defence core in general is going to need, and likely be given, more support from the forward core under Babcock. With any luck the rest of the defence core itself will step up, and be given more responsibility and the burden won't fall as hard on Dion's shoulders as it has in the past. He's not a bad player, but he's also not the guy who can carry it all by himself. Very few players are. There's no shame in it.

You're not going to magically make Dion more than he is, but leaving him the opportunity to play to his strengths, and have the team help provide some support should make a big difference.

I'm personally looking forward to seeing his play this season.