News Article: Did Mike Babcock Almost Ruin the Toronto Maple Leafs?

[AndyWozniewski]

He brought respectability to our team in his first 3.5 seasons or so. Turned us from a laughing stock into a competent team who consistently made the playoffs. He was an important part of our players' development.

However, the 2nd half of last season, plus playoffs, plus this season showed that he wouldn't be the one to take us all the way. His stubbornness ultimately did him in.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Marner and Matthews contracts are pretty awful. If they had gotten 8 years you could live with it, getting 6 and 5 years respectively has really narrowed their Cup window IMO.

I really don't like this argument at all, because its illogical and ignorant. A lot of top stars signed for 5-6 year deals, this isn't new or unique to Toronto. The fact that I continually have to mention the top guys is getting tiresome. Kane, Toews, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Guentzel , Bergeron, Pastranak , Marchand, Kuznetsov , and a plethora of other high end talent, all signed for 6 or less. This rhetoric needs to end because its obnoxious having to hear people whine about not signing players out of their ELC's to 8 year deals at 4 million . It's funny, because everyone moaned about Nylander being overpaid, and now everyone stopped complaining. The same will happen with Marner and Matthews, even though the only one that's "awful" would be the Marner deal. But Apparently being on pace for 50 goals and or 90+ points means you shouldn't be in the top 10 of highest paid players for whatever reason. Elite level players don't tend to leave their drafted teams, not sure why people are expecting everyone to max out the team, or leave. It's ridiculous

 

[ottomaddox]

3 Stanley Cup appearances
1 Stanley Cup win
1 Olympic Gold
1 World Cup of Hockey
700 Wins in the NHL

This thread and season is a blip if you ask me.

 

[FraumBallard]

Lol at needing to capitalize men.

With this Leaf Team.
Ya.
Distinction should be there.

 

[Metroid]

With this Leaf Team.
Ya.
Distinction should be there.

And I bet every single leaf player is more "man" than you ever will be.

 

[FraumBallard]

And I bet every single leaf player is more "man" than you ever will be.

Ya.
Personal insults are unnecessary.
We disagree.
That's cool.
You don't even know me.
Think.

 

[Metroid]

Ya.
Personal insults are unnecessary.
We disagree.
That's cool.
You don't even know me.
Think.

I judge based on your post history.
Sorry. Deal with it.

 

[hotpaws]

I really don't like this argument at all, because its illogical and ignorant. A lot of top stars signed for 5-6 year deals, this isn't new or unique to Toronto. The fact that I continually have to mention the top guys is getting tiresome. Kane, Toews, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Guentzel , Bergeron, Pastranak , Marchand, Kuznetsov , and a plethora of other high end talent, all signed for 6 or less. This rhetoric needs to end because its obnoxious having to hear people whine about not signing players out of their ELC's to 8 year deals at 4 million . It's funny, because everyone moaned about Nylander being overpaid, and now everyone stopped complaining. The same will happen with Marner and Matthews, even though the only one that's "awful" would be the Marner deal. But Apparently being on pace for 50 goals and or 90+ points means you shouldn't be in the top 10 of highest paid players for whatever reason. Elite level players don't tend to leave their drafted teams, not sure why people are expecting everyone to max out the team, or leave. It's ridiculous

What has to stop is the crap about using term and cap hit separately like somehow there not connected , take a look at the cap % of the players who signed 5/6 year deals , then compare that to our players and get back to me .

 

[biotk]

It's been a while, but one question has been burning me since Mike Babcock was fired. Did Mike Babcock almost ruin the Toronto Maple Leafs?

I took a look at the "Marner Situation", the deals I think Mike Babcock influenced, and other players who were impacted by Babcock's coaching on his previous teams.

Possibly. I would argue probably. Most people on here will dismiss the idea that Babcock could have influenced the contracts. But most people around here also spent a couple years completely dismissing the idea that there was an issue between Matthews and Babcock - saying that it was completely normal for the coach to go down to Arizona to meet his star player a couple weeks after the season ended.

Before Tavares was even signed I had said that the big three hated playing for Babock and that was going to lead to major problems with contract negotiations. At that time the talk around here was that the big three were all going to sign quickly and to team friendly contracts.

Now it is difficult to deny that a large chunk of the players - including the big three - really did not like playing for Babcock. It would stand to reason that if people really don't like their boss - the one who has massive power over their opportunities to perform - that giving up your best years of a short career is not going to come cheap. Babcock had spent 10 years coaching in Detroit, so if you were a player on the Leafs' you would have to expect that there was at least a decent chance he would spend at least that long coaching in Toronto (you don't think the players knew about Babcock's close relationship with Tenebaum?). If you are a star player and you think that the coach is going to hamper your career and that the coach is also not competent enough to take your team anywhere, where would that lead you too when it comes to contract negotiations. The obvious answer is - playing hardball and demanding a significantly higher salary and at a shorter term than the team wants. This should have been obvious to everyone.

Your article is missing something substantial though in my opinion. The Leafs have been missing bottom 6 scoring. The Leafs have an extreme shortage of big forwards who can win board battles. Imagine if the Leafs could acquire an inexpensive third pairing left winger who can play up the lineup or on the right side if needed, wins tons of board battles, is a really good net front presence on the second PP, and who consistently puts up big numbers at 5v5 year after year, including outproducing almost all Leafs' forwards this year (Only Matthews and Nylander had a higher 5v5 G/60 this season, and only Mikheyev, Matthews, Marner and Nylander had a higher 5v5 P/60 this season - and again this player has done that consistently year after year) and this same guy was very well liked and popular in the Leafs' locker room, but the Leafs' gave him away for essentially nothing because the stubborn ass coach hated him. I have argued that the Leafs' going off the rails during the 2018/19 season correlates with the trading of Leivo - it showed the players the kind of overwhelming power that the coach they hated, didn't respect, and felt was not very competent, had over the players in the locker room. That ability, effort and performance didn't matter. What mattered was whether the massive narcissist liked you or not. But none of that would affect contract negotiations....

 

[FraumBallard]

I judge based on your post history.
Sorry. Deal with it.

You should never judge when you don't know.
Very basic to understand.
For most people.
Carry on.

 

[FraumBallard]

Possibly. I would argue probably. Most people on here will dismiss the idea that Babcock could have influenced the contracts. But most people around here also spent a couple years completely dismissing the idea that there was an issue between Matthews and Babcock - saying that it was completely normal for the coach to go down to Arizona to meet his star player a couple weeks after the season ended.

Before Tavares was even signed I had said that the big three hated playing for Babock and that was going to lead to major problems with contract negotiations. At that time the talk around here was that the big three were all going to sign quickly and to team friendly contracts.

Now it is difficult to deny that a large chunk of the players - including the big three - really did not like playing for Babcock. It would stand to reason that if people really don't like their boss - the one who has massive power over their opportunities to perform - that giving up your best years of a short career is not going to come cheap. Babcock had spent 10 years coaching in Detroit, so if you were a player on the Leafs' you would have to expect that there was at least a decent chance he would spend at least that long coaching in Toronto (you don't think the players knew about Babcock's close relationship with Tenebaum?). If you are a star player and you think that the coach is going to hamper your career and that the coach is also not competent enough to take your team anywhere, where would that lead you too when it comes to contract negotiations. The obvious answer is - playing hardball and demanding a significantly higher salary and at a shorter term than the team wants. This should have been obvious to everyone.

Your article is missing something substantial though in my opinion. The Leafs have been missing bottom 6 scoring. The Leafs have an extreme shortage of big forwards who can win board battles. Imagine if the Leafs could acquire an inexpensive third pairing left winger who can play up the lineup or on the right side if needed, wins tons of board battles, is a really good net front presence on the second PP, and who consistently puts up big numbers at 5v5 year after year, including outproducing almost all Leafs' forwards this year (Only Matthews and Nylander had a higher 5v5 G/60 this season, and only Mikheyev, Matthews, Marner and Nylander had a higher 5v5 P/60 this season - and again this player has done that consistently year after year) and this same guy was very well liked and popular in the Leafs' locker room, but the Leafs' gave him away for essentially nothing because the stubborn ass coach hated him. I have argued that the Leafs' going off the rails during the 2018/19 season correlates with the trading of Leivo - it showed the players the kind of overwhelming power that the coach they hated, didn't respect, and felt was not very competent, had over the players in the locker room. That ability, effort and performance didn't matter. What mattered was whether the massive narcissist liked you or not. But none of that would affect contract negotiations....

Scotty Bowman.
The kids pouted and Babcock ( a great Coach ) got fired.
Shame on the kids.
Shows a real lack of Character.
70s Habs did not like Bowman.
At all.
They were pretty successful.
He didn't cater to Children like Wonder Boy does.

 

[Rondo Hatton]

Right idea.
Wrong guy.
Dubas IS ruining the Leafs.
With , amazingly , Shanahan cheering him on.
All he has to do is look how he played.
That is what we need more of.
What a couple of Morons.
They did very good with Babcock.
He's a great Coach.
Apparently too tough for kids.
He will Coach MEN for a long time to come in the NHL.

It's a shame how no one will remember this post in the coming years, because it will prove to be a most laughable one.

MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN

 

[WTFMAN99]

well unfortunately for your point of view he can’t be judged on if he is getting closer or further from a championship with playoffs and season potentially gone.

You can feel that but i will say you get back what you put out there. Listening without adding is a better approach to learning views that will differ from yours.

Here on the boards we just let rip in a polite way mostly but we let go. In person most people are more courteous and less confrontational generally.

Dubas has checked all the boxes posters said he couldn’t in managing the cap to sign all his star RFA’s and moved some extensive cap hits from the teams this off season.

Drafted players that are now considered draft steals. Signed Mikheyev. Made some good trades in Muzzin,Campbell and Clifford.

Blew it on the Kadri trade but at the time the trade was viewed with optimism on here.

Extended to much faith in hutch.

Fired Babcock possible 23 games to late, because he had lost the room long before that going back to mid 2018/19 season and the drop in play under him was obvious.

I understand he has had some decision issues. Who wouldn’t. The body of work overall has been excellent. So i listed issues and successes and unless i missed something i believe he has dobe a good job.

You're entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine.

I really don't like this argument at all, because its illogical and ignorant. A lot of top stars signed for 5-6 year deals, this isn't new or unique to Toronto. The fact that I continually have to mention the top guys is getting tiresome. Kane, Toews, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Guentzel , Bergeron, Pastranak , Marchand, Kuznetsov , and a plethora of other high end talent, all signed for 6 or less. This rhetoric needs to end because its obnoxious having to hear people whine about not signing players out of their ELC's to 8 year deals at 4 million . It's funny, because everyone moaned about Nylander being overpaid, and now everyone stopped complaining. The same will happen with Marner and Matthews, even though the only one that's "awful" would be the Marner deal. But Apparently being on pace for 50 goals and or 90+ points means you shouldn't be in the top 10 of highest paid players for whatever reason. Elite level players don't tend to leave their drafted teams, not sure why people are expecting everyone to max out the team, or leave. It's ridiculous

I'd rather look at the most recent superstars. McDavid, Eichel, Draisitl all locked up for 8 year deals. Those would be considered his peers. The other guys you're mentioning are old news and even if you did want to compare them, the Leafs overpaid by comparison.

No one minds Matthews production, or even Marner to be honest. Production is there. Term isn't, that is all. The Oilers of all the damned teams have actually kept their window open longer than ours. 12.5M for McDavid isn't bad and isn't going to look bad in 2 more years when he will still have 4 years left on his deal.

 

[FraumBallard]

It's a shame how no one will remember this post in the coming years, because it will prove to be a most laughable one.

MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN

I took a screenshot.
You and I can remember it for years.
We could even title it as a group of kids to Cup Champs and the bumps in the road.
Or.
We could keep Dubas and Keefe.

 

[FraumBallard]

3 Stanley Cup appearances
1 Stanley Cup win
1 Olympic Gold
1 World Cup of Hockey
700 Wins in the NHL

This thread and season is a blip if you ask me.

Great Coach.
Pouty kids.
Boom.
Fired

 

[FraumBallard]

He brought respectability to our team in his first 3.5 seasons or so. Turned us from a laughing stock into a competent team who consistently made the playoffs. He was an important part of our players' development.

However, the 2nd half of last season, plus playoffs, plus this season showed that he wouldn't be the one to take us all the way. His stubbornness ultimately did him in.

More like.
The kids pouting did him in.

 

[FraumBallard]

And I bet every single leaf player is more "man" than you ever will be.

Mr Anonymous.
Do you have any idea who you are " speaking " to?
Clearly not.
Bad look for you.
Stay with your beloved keyboard.
But here's some good advice.
Stick to Hockey.
You're Welcome.

 

[FraumBallard]

You can’t use records like win/loss or setting franchise records.

You can only use win/loss for Keefe. And even then only for the first 20ish games.

That’s what I’ve learned from small but vical parts of these forums.

Like.
Bang on.
Well said.

 

[FraumBallard]

I'm not really pleased with the team but don't think it's disfunctional either.

We certainly have major consistency problems and need a RD upgrade in the summer and some PK help.

If we miss the playoffs this year it would probably be strike 1 for Dubas to me. He's done much more good than harm on balance and we need to trust the process especially with such a young team and coach. He deserves a couple more years unless he goes bonkers.

Process.
B2b 100 points with Babcock.
6 games with Wsh ( 5 O.T. )
2 game 7 with Boston.
And life or death for playoffs tracking well below 100 points.
That ain't process.
That ain't progress.
That's thanks for nothing.
That's good luck at the Spreadsheet factory.

 

[BrainyBomber]

Process.
B2b 100 points with Babcock.
6 games with Wsh ( 5 O.T. )
2 game 7 with Boston.
And life or death for playoffs tracking well below 100 points.
That ain't process.
That ain't progress.
That's thanks for nothing.
That's good luck at the Spreadsheet factory.

Jumbled nonsense.

We aren't tracking well below 100 points.

We have a better post-Babcock record than before including last season.

 

[FraumBallard]

Jumbled nonsense.

We aren't tracking well below 100 points.

We have a better post-Babcock record than before including last season.

Ya.
You gotta WATCH.
Every Game.
We are way worse without Babcock.
Matthews/Nylander/Taveres/Mikheyev/Clifford/Gauthier/Muzzin/Rielly are keepers.
Roll with what we got in Goal
Keep Hyman of course.
Get rid of All the rest.
Exceptions being Korshkov/Robertson/Sandin and Lilly.
Dump the rest.
Soft /Timid/One dimensional

Good riddance.
Then.
Fire Wonder Boy and let a real GM trade Marner for a tough stay at home D man and a tough forward who can play.
And still have $ left over.

Shanahan is such a Moron.
He fires Dubas or they both get fired.
The sooner the better

 

[Pookie]

... and he almost certainly lost the room. Had to go.

What evidence are you using to conclude he “lost the room?”

 

[Metroid]

Mr Anonymous.
Do you have any idea who you are " speaking " to?
You're Welcome.

Can I get your autograph?

 

[Koolboss]

Are you serious? Not almost, Babcock and this management did ruin the Leafs. Lol

 

[hotpaws]

Possibly. I would argue probably. Most people on here will dismiss the idea that Babcock could have influenced the contracts. But most people around here also spent a couple years completely dismissing the idea that there was an issue between Matthews and Babcock - saying that it was completely normal for the coach to go down to Arizona to meet his star player a couple weeks after the season ended.

Before Tavares was even signed I had said that the big three hated playing for Babock and that was going to lead to major problems with contract negotiations. At that time the talk around here was that the big three were all going to sign quickly and to team friendly contracts.

Now it is difficult to deny that a large chunk of the players - including the big three - really did not like playing for Babcock. It would stand to reason that if people really don't like their boss - the one who has massive power over their opportunities to perform - that giving up your best years of a short career is not going to come cheap. Babcock had spent 10 years coaching in Detroit, so if you were a player on the Leafs' you would have to expect that there was at least a decent chance he would spend at least that long coaching in Toronto (you don't think the players knew about Babcock's close relationship with Tenebaum?). If you are a star player and you think that the coach is going to hamper your career and that the coach is also not competent enough to take your team anywhere, where would that lead you too when it comes to contract negotiations. The obvious answer is - playing hardball and demanding a significantly higher salary and at a shorter term than the team wants. This should have been obvious to everyone.

Your article is missing something substantial though in my opinion. The Leafs have been missing bottom 6 scoring. The Leafs have an extreme shortage of big forwards who can win board battles. Imagine if the Leafs could acquire an inexpensive third pairing left winger who can play up the lineup or on the right side if needed, wins tons of board battles, is a really good net front presence on the second PP, and who consistently puts up big numbers at 5v5 year after year, including outproducing almost all Leafs' forwards this year (Only Matthews and Nylander had a higher 5v5 G/60 this season, and only Mikheyev, Matthews, Marner and Nylander had a higher 5v5 P/60 this season - and again this player has done that consistently year after year) and this same guy was very well liked and popular in the Leafs' locker room, but the Leafs' gave him away for essentially nothing because the stubborn ass coach hated him. I have argued that the Leafs' going off the rails during the 2018/19 season correlates with the trading of Leivo - it showed the players the kind of overwhelming power that the coach they hated, didn't respect, and felt was not very competent, had over the players in the locker room. That ability, effort and performance didn't matter. What mattered was whether the massive narcissist liked you or not. But none of that would affect contract negotiations....

cool story but you ignored a few things while you were trying to shift the blame away from Dubas and unto Babs

- Rielly and Kadri had no issues signing reasonable and some would say team friendly deals while Babs was coach

- Nylander's biggest fear was that he was going to get traded and why would he fear that if he loathed playing for Babcock

- JT played for Babs in multiple tourneys and still signed here

basically M and M looked at what JT signed for and said we're better than him so why should we accept less