Rumor: Dhaliwal: Canucks interested in Alexis Lafrenière

[Mersss]

Montreal fans have literally been penciling Laf into their lineups for years (I won't usually post on other teams' boards, but I do take a look from time to time). That's not entitlement?

And I agree that Montreal is in a good position for an offer sheet. I've said as much in this thread. Montreal has cap space and the Rangers are tight until the cap has a real increase. What's entitled is the thought that you will be able to get him on a middling offer sheet. If you don't want the Rangers to match, then you'll have to offer enough on the OS that the return would hurt.

And again, the Rangers would be in a position to retaliate as early as the following summer or the year after. And with Sather/Dolan still calling the major shots? You know damn well retaliation would happen (probably in a way that hurts both teams, knowing Sather/Dolan).

How could they? MTL's core will be signed already, at the end of a rebuild so plenty of capspace.


I don't care if the Rangers match or not. That's not the point. The point is to put them in a position whre theya re paying their 4line LW 4.2M$ for 2-3 years if they match, right when they are incredibly tight. Forcing the NYR to either let him walk and take a 2nd, or sign him and look at them needing to make some terrible moves to be able to sign Chytil (who'll be asking for similar $ or more at that point) and all their others RFA. Sather may not want to screw with his internal cap ladder and, therefore, may decide to just lt him go instead. Not because he wants to, but because he has to.

What happens when, after you've signed Laf to the OS @ 4.2, Chytil comes knocking at the doos asking for 4.5 / 5? or Miller?

And at the point where NYR can retaliate, they'll be losing Panarin troube kreider... are you sure you'd want them to OS and lose their 1st rd pick at that point?

 

[ole ole]

What are you, 12? The Rangers aren't shopping him. Ergo the "correct" value is pointless to discuss. One of your fellow Montreal fans suggested trying to offer sheet him at the 2nd rounder range, which is where you jumped in to that conversation. The two arguments have nothing to do with each other. You want Laf in Montreal so bad? Pony up an offer sheet the Rangers can't match. With your cap space and the Rangers cap crunch, it shouldn't be that difficult, but you can bet your ass they would find a way to match until the return had Montreal's 1st rounder in it.

Not a top 10 unprotected 1st rounder.
Like i said NO team is doing that.
That's a pipe dream.
I don't want Laf at the outrageous price some Ranger fans think it would take. and I wouldn't use an offer sheet on him.
I'm just trying to gauge his true value.
Top 10 unprotected 1st.

 

[hawksrule]

But the Rangers don't need to accept his "fair market value." He's under team control for several more years. The market isn't what someone determines is "fair." It's the price where a transaction can take place. Your "fair" is not close to enough for the Rangers to move him, and it's the Rangers who get to make that call. So no, his "fair market value" isn't far lower just because you want it to be. You are confusing "what you want to pay (ie: pipe dream)" with "what both teams will accept (ie: fair market value)." I don't see EITHER side as anywhere close to where the other side is at, which is why I don't see ANY "market" for Lafreniere right now.

For the record, I feel the same way re: Kane. A ton of people were going on and on about how Chicago would have to accept a 2nd rounder if Kane limits his potential teams. But they don't. They don't have to trade Kane at all. And that's why I don't want to trade for Kane. Because the "market value" is higher than what I would want the Rangers to pay.

That’s fine, agree nyr needn’t trade him if they don’t like the return. My point was that you’re rejecting the market price, not a bargain basement price.

 

[smoneil]

Not a top 10 unprotected 1st rounder.
Like i said NO team is doing that.
That's a pipe dream.
I don't want Laf at the outrageous price some Ranger fans think it would take. and I wouldn't use an offer sheet on him.
I'm just trying to gauge his true value.
Top 10 unprotected 1st.

Do you have me confused with someone else? I have literally said nothing about top 10 unprotected 1sts. My point in every single post has been that the Rangers won't accept what other teams would offer (the gamble on Laf's upside is more valuable) and that other teams wouldn't offer what Rangers fans would accept. There IS no "true value" as true value requires an item that can be traded successfully. I don't see any scenario where Laf is traded.

 

[smoneil]

That’s fine, agree nyr needn’t trade him if they don’t like the return. My point was that you’re rejecting the market price, not a bargain basement price.

And my point was that the "market price" is set by a feasible transaction. There is no feasible transaction in this case due to the things I mentioned earlier. This isn't video game hockey where every player has a compiled mathematical value. To have a market, you have to have a player ON the market, and Laf isn't. it's like on Pawn Stars where the shop and the seller are just clearly miles apart on value. The smart thing to do is shake hands and move on. Unfortunately, we get threads like this almost weekly because Habs fans are pissed off that they can't have their new French Canadian toy for peanuts.

 

[ole ole]

- 2 already and looks absolutely terrible tonight.
Ya i agree the Ranger best move is to keep him and hope he can some how become at least a 2nd liner.
He's not gonna get much in a trade the way he's playing.

And my point was that the "market price" is set by a feasible transaction. There is no feasible transaction in this case due to the things I mentioned earlier. This isn't video game hockey where every player has a compiled mathematical value. To have a market, you have to have a player ON the market, and Laf isn't. it's like on Pawn Stars where the shop and the seller are just clearly miles apart on value. The smart thing to do is shake hands and move on. Unfortunately, we get threads like this almost weekly because Habs fans are pissed off that they can't have their new French Canadian toy for peanuts.

Hab fans?
Seems someone is pissed off and it's not Hab fans.
It mostly all non-Ranger fans who claim his value has dropped.
As a Hab fan i agree. His value has dropped.
As for the peanuts i've seen Ranger fans asking for the Habs 1st rd pick.
Seems their pissed off because they can't get near the value they think they would get.
But ya lets blame it on Hab fans.

 

[smoneil]

- 2 already and looks absolutely terrible tonight.
Ya i agree the Ranger best move is to keep him and hope he can some how become at least a 2nd liner.
He's not gonna get much in a trade the way he's playing.


Hab fans?
Seems someone is pissed off and it's not Hab fans.
It mostly all non-Ranger fans who claim his value has dropped.
As a Hab fan i agree. His value has dropped.
As for the peanuts i've seen Ranger fans asking for the Habs 1st rd pick.
Seems their pissed off because they can't get near the value they think they would get.
But ya lets blame it on Hab fans.

Habs fans have (largely) been the ones starting the threads. Other than Bernmeister, the VAST majority of Rangers fans have been consistent in saying that it's worth more to us to hold on to him and see what happens than it is to trade him. We've gone into our reasons for optimism (his non-traditional developmental journey, his lack of PP time, his lack of opportunity behind Bread and Kreider). We've gone into our reasons for holding particularly tight to this particular pick (he's the only 1oa pick in Rangers history, and one of only 3 top 5. Montreal has had 10 or 11 top 5 picks in the same span).

And your trolling posts are exactly what these threads break down into. Habs fans start threads wanting Laf. They want Laf effectively for free. Rangers fans say no. Habs fans then proceed to expend scads of effort in trying to convince the world that Laf is the worst player ever and nobody should want him (until two or three days later, when another Habs fan starts the 237th "Laf to Montreal for garbage" thread).

Let's mix it up. You and the rest of the Habs fans can START from the position that you think Laf is garbage and you don't think anyone should trade for him. Then you can all collectively remember that the next time one of you is tempted to propose another trade thread for him.

Don't Montreal fans have anything else to distract them? Can't you just sign Emelin to trip another player into your goalie so you can all whine about that for another decade?

 

[Buresflyingelbow]

yes, but what is the incentive to break coke for pepsi?

The upside of 1st overall. A Canadian coming home and a Russian going to the biggest market who is friends with Panarin.

 

[jellybeans]

If Montreal wants him, the compensation from their offer sheet will have a first. Otherwise, he's not playing for Montreal. Get with the times. The age of Montreal getting all the French Canadian players for free ended several decades ago.

Don't care if he doesn't end up in montreal just saying without a long term contract no team will give a first for him.

 

[Paulinbc]

Not sure if Laf is worth anything. Give you Lek for him straight up. Lek is younger.

 

[smoneil]

Don't care if he doesn't end up in montreal just saying without a long term contract no team will give a first for him.

That was a conversation about offer sheet compensation. A Habs fan thinks they can get Laf for 4.2 where the compensation would only be a 2nd. There's no way the Rangers don't match at that range. To get to a point where the Rangers can't match, the compensation would have a 1st rounder.

 

[Mersss]

That was a conversation about offer sheet compensation. A Habs fan thinks they can get Laf for 4.2 where the compensation would only be a 2nd. There's no way the Rangers don't match at that range. To get to a point where the Rangers can't match, the compensation would have a 1st rounder.

And again. i never said the Rangers wouldn't match, but they'd have to make serious cits in their vap structure to fit him at 4.2, considering Chytil and Millet will ask for similar $. Most bottom feeder would OS him at a 2nd. Screws the NYR cap structure and they don't have to pay anything significant for it

 

[smoneil]

And again. i never said the Rangers wouldn't match, but they'd have to make serious cits in their vap structure to fit him at 4.2, considering Chytil and Millet will ask for similar $. Most bottom feeder would OS him at a 2nd. Screws the NYR cap structure and they don't have to pay anything significant for it

What it ultimately boils down to is you just repeating this over and over again. I know my team's cap situation better than you do. 4.2 would be annoying, but they could 100% make it work, even with the other two RFAs to sign. It would just mean bridges for the RFAs and less room for guys like Blais. And considering the expected cap bump (either this summer or next summer), the cap space to take care of those bridged guys will be here when we need it. Your 4.2 annoys the Rangers' cap structure. If you want to screw it, you need to pay at least another 1.5m.

 

[Mersss]

What it ultimately boils down to is you just repeating this over and over again. I know my team's cap situation better than you do. 4.2 would be annoying, but they could 100% make it work, even with the other two RFAs to sign. It would just mean bridges for the RFAs and less room for guys like Blais. And considering the expected cap bump (either this summer or next summer), the cap space to take care of those bridged guys will be here when we need it. Your 4.2 annoys the Rangers' cap structure. If you want to screw it, you need to pay at least another 1.5m.

We'd want him. At 4.2, nothint above that. Habs 1st will he top10 again in 2024 and Laf isnt worth a top10 pick.

Signing Laf ar 4.2 means Chytil and Moller get at least 4.5. cap isn't going to go thay high up next OSeason. And then you need to replace guys loke Blais, Goodrow and else that you'll need to get rid of to for their 3 players

 

[MoneyManny]

Horvat is a rental and Laf scored 19 even strength goals last year. To give up a 21 year old former 1st overall who is playing 3rd line mins and no PP time for a rental is idiotic. So WTF are you talking about?

The goal of the game is to win a championship not hoard the treasure like a dragon. Players primes in hockey are short already for the most part, if all the rangers do is stay pat, they likely never even get to truly chase the cup before their stars get old and they're stuck with 2 underwhelming former top 3 prospects Noone wants anymore.

Also as a Habs fan, screw Laff. No interest paying for a guy who can't play himself out of a 3rd line after 3 years. The ask for a 2023 Habs unprotected 1st is hilarious. The chance Habs have to draft a player that's better, younger and has more potential than Laff with their pick is substantial.

 

[bernmeister]

And what you expect Laf to wait another 3 years before getting his shot?

IMO. He'll take a 1 year 4M OSheet, places him at 2nd rd pick value. Puts NYR in a position where they can't sign him and bingo he's heading somewhere else

I expect him to assess entirety of what is in his best overall interest.
He'll take 2.5ish for 1 yr and continue to develop relatively friendly situation here w/NY.
That imo is the rule, there could be an exception.
Also Trouba can be dealt in 2 seasons when nmc => llimited ntc
Most of that 8m can be repurposed.
So yes, not immediate full $$$$ but I see enuf for him to stay

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

We'd want him. At 4.2, nothint above that. Habs 1st will he top10 again in 2024 and Laf isnt worth a top10 pick.

Signing Laf ar 4.2 means Chytil and Moller get at least 4.5. cap isn't going to go thay high up next OSeason. And then you need to replace guys loke Blais, Goodrow and else that you'll need to get rid of to for their 3 players

Didn’t Montreal trade their 2024 second round pick for Dvorak? I realize they have Colorado’s second but I thought offer sheet compensation had to be with their own pick.

 

[bernmeister]

The upside of 1st overall. A Canadian coming home and a Russian going to the biggest market who is friends with Panarin.

Pod is nice, have always liked him
but not seeing Rs doing 1:1 gets them anything

 

[smoneil]

We'd want him. At 4.2, nothint above that. Habs 1st will he top10 again in 2024 and Laf isnt worth a top10 pick.

Signing Laf ar 4.2 means Chytil and Moller get at least 4.5. cap isn't going to go thay high up next OSeason. And then you need to replace guys loke Blais, Goodrow and else that you'll need to get rid of to for their 3 players

Huge leap of an assumption re: Chytil and Miller. They could do a shorter bridge in order to cash in when the cap goes up in two years. Make a bet on themselves. As for replacing guys like Blais (who himself has been in and out of the lineup), Goodrow, probably Vesey--we have a top prospect likely ready next year (Othmann), and a couple of guys who should be ready for 4th line duty next season (Cuylle, maybe Brett Berard). Not ideal (you never really want to COUNT on a rookie) but if the choice is between losing Laf for a 2nd round tender offer sheet or losing Goodrow/Blais/Vesey and probably paying a bit more on Miller/Chytil's next contracts? That's a pretty easy decision.

 

[hawksrule]

Third year in the NHL and on pace for 36 points. Still a lousy skater. He’s just not that good.

 

[JlindiesANA]

Their big ticket players are locked up for several years, and the flat cap is ending soon. They are in a cap crunch this summer if the cap only goes up by a million, but only because they have three RFAs who need contracts (including 2 who will need 3rd contracts). Trouba only has 3 years left after this one (and after next year, his NMC becomes a MNTC--I'd be shocked if Trouba finishes his contract here, particularly with how well Schneider has been playing). Panarin's contract has 3 years left. Kreider's NMC turns into a NTC in two years.

The Rangers are in cap difficulty this summer because they have key RFA's to sign, and few move-able contracts. With each passing year, those non-move-able contracts become more and more flexible, and the cap is expected to jump the year after next. The Rangers need to keep things controlled this summer and maybe a bit the following summer. After that, it's all gravy.

Will Montreal signing Laf to a 4.2m offer sheet make things more difficult? Of course. But difficult isn't impossible. They can make that work. So either way, Montreal won't get their boy. If you want to go high enough for it to hurt before the Rangers couldn't find a way to match.

We can solve this money issue by having Anaheim take some bad contracts back for good compensation during the summer.

 

[Moose Head]

Didn’t Montreal trade their 2024 second round pick for Dvorak? I realize they have Colorado’s second but I thought offer sheet compensation had to be with their own pick.

You are correct on both counts. Another ‘gift’ left by Bergevin. He has a ton of 2nds and trades the one that hurts team flexibility the most. Idiot.

 

[smoneil]

We can solve this money issue by having Anaheim take some bad contracts back for good compensation during the summer.

We don't really have any "bad" contracts. Goodrow is paid about what he's worth. Trouba is overpaid but has a NMC and a reason to enforce it right now (and he'll have value in two years when the NMC converts to a MNTC in his last two years. With some retention, Trouba would return value AND free up cap if need be).

Beyond those two? Our big cap contracts are Zibanejad, Panarin, Fox, Kreider, and Trocheck, and they aren't cap dumps at all (and they all have NMCs, I believe, though again, the team isn't looking to move any of them).

That's why this summer with the three key RFAs COULD be dangerous for offer sheets. Up to a certain point, the Rangers could match (anything below 1st round compensation) on one of them. But at a certain price point? They just don't have the flexibility to create the cap to match. Their big contracts provide too much value to move, too much term to buy out, and/or have contract clauses preventing movement.

 

[JlindiesANA]

We don't really have any "bad" contracts. Goodrow is paid about what he's worth. Trouba is overpaid but has a NMC and a reason to enforce it right now (and he'll have value in two years when the NMC converts to a MNTC in his last two years. With some retention, Trouba would return value AND free up cap if need be).

Beyond those two? Our big cap contracts are Zibanejad, Panarin, Fox, Kreider, and Trocheck, and they aren't cap dumps at all (and they all have NMCs, I believe, though again, the team isn't looking to move any of them).

That's why this summer with the three key RFAs COULD be dangerous for offer sheets. Up to a certain point, the Rangers could match (anything below 1st round compensation) on one of them. But at a certain price point? They just don't have the flexibility to create the cap to match. Their big contracts provide too much value to move, too much term to buy out, and/or have contract clauses preventing movement.

Got it

 

[McShogun99]

Podholzin for Laf or Horvat and Kuzmenko with 50% retained for Laf.

Ranger fans are going thru what Edmonton fans went thru with Yakupov and JP. We felt they had much more value because of draft position, age and potential then what the GM's of the league thought. Every year you wait to trade a potential bust prospect just keeps lowering the value. Right now no team would give a 1st in the top 20 for Laf. Next season his stock will drop to a 2nd and keep dropping if he stays around 30 points.