GDT: Devils vs. Stars - 7:00 PM - MSG+

[JimEIV]

Weak again. Who cares where great players were drafted. And so Bergeron alone makes this a good team? He’s going to play defense and goalie on shifts he’s not a center? Meh. One guy wouldn’t move the needle. EDM has two dominant players and hasn’t won anything. NJ has problems but Nico’s ability isn’t one of them. Just my thought but I think I’m the mainstream and you are the outlier on this issue.

Because there were significantly better players in their draft years that WERE Foundational....do you really need this explain to you? In the case of O'Reilly are you taking him over Tavares or Hedman? The talent level difference in these cases are wildly vast.

In the case of Bergeron are you taking him over Eric Staal or Ryan Getzlaf??

Those players (Bergeron or O'Reilly) weren't the best players in their draft...we picked #1 overall and got second tier talent by this boards own comparisons. Perhaps some of it was just bad draft years and bad timing, perhaps some of it was missed opportunity...the reason why is irrelevant to me...what is relevant is that we gave up nearly a decade already to get to where we are today and it doesn't look we have anything for the troubles.

 

[My3Sons]

Because there were significantly better players in their draft years that WERE Foundational....do you really need this explain to you? In the case of O'Reilly are you taking him over Tavares or Hedman? The talent level difference in these cases are wildly vast.

In the case of Bergeron are you taking him over Eric Staal or Ryan Getzlaf??

Those players (Bergeron or O'Reilly) weren't the best players in their draft...we picked #1 overall and got second tier talent by this boards own comparisons. Perhaps some of it was just bad draft years and bad timing, perhaps some of it was missed opportunity...the reason why is irrelevant to me...what is relevant is that we gave up nearly a decade already to get to where we are today and it doesn't look we have anything for the troubles.

To me and I think a number of others Nico is playing like a core player. It takes more than a couple of those to me good and I agree NJ has roster problems but you are really isolating yourself on that argument post Hall post Hynes. And yes I’d take Bergeron every day over Staal and a whole host of guys from that draft including Parise and maybe Getzlaf but that is less clear to me. This is all opinion and yours is as valid as anyone’s but the Nico is a meh 50 point center thing just seems forced. Kid is playing with veteran level heart guts and effort at 21. That’s a rare quality as I see it.

 

[JimEIV]

To me and I think a number of others Nico is playing like a core player. It takes more than a couple of those to me good and I agree NJ has roster problems but you are really isolating yourself on that argument post Hall post Hynes. And yes I’d take Bergeron every day over Staal and a whole host of guys from that draft including Parise and maybe Getzlaf but that is less clear to me. This is all opinion and yours is as valid as anyone’s but the Nico is a meh 50 point center thing just seems forced. Kid is playing with veteran level heart guts and effort at 21. That’s a rare quality as I see it.

I don't want a #1 overall thats best qualities are heart and guts... that's what the Henrique's and Blake Coleman's of the world are for...I want a #1 overall who is top tier scorer or top pairing Dman and better than the vast majority of the players in the league.

 

[devilsblood]

Because there were significantly better players in their draft years that WERE Foundational....do you really need this explain to you? In the case of O'Reilly are you taking him over Tavares or Hedman? The talent level difference in these cases are wildly vast.

In the case of Bergeron are you taking him over Eric Staal or Ryan Getzlaf??

Those players (Bergeron or O'Reilly) weren't the best players in their draft...we picked #1 overall and got second tier talent by this boards own comparisons. Perhaps some of it was just bad draft years and bad timing, perhaps some of it was missed opportunity...the reason why is irrelevant to me...what is relevant is that we gave up nearly a decade already to get to where we are today and it doesn't look we have anything for the troubles.

Getzlaf played 2 additional seasons in juniors after his draft year. Didn't exceed 40 points in the NHL until his +4 year, didn't exceed 60 points until his +5 year.

Nico is in his +3 year.

Now would I take Bergeron's career over either Staal or Getzlaf? I might.

Edit: O'Reilly is the 3rd leading scorer from his draft year, is a very good defensive center, and of course just won a cup.

If we are saying those things regarding Nico in 12 years I'm cool with that.

 

[devilsblood]

I don't want a #1 overall thats best qualities are heart and guts... that's what the Henrique's and Blake Coleman's of the world are for...I want a #1 overall who is top tier scorer or top pairing Dman and better than the vast majority of the players in the league.

Goal post shift.

 

[Triumph]

Kirk Muller scored 74 points in year 3 and 94 points in year 4.... MacLean was a 30 goal scorer by year 3, Shanahan by year 3 as well. Elias was a little bit older but by his 3rd full season he was a 70+ point player. Similarly for Parise who was older but was a 30 goal scorer in year 2.... Zajac who is nowhere near a foundational player was at 62 points in year 3 and getting Selke votes...

Generational scoring aside these guys were major contributors to tangible success and improvement. We aren't seeing that with what we have today...you can talk about nuances all you like but this team is going nowhere with Hischier as the go to player...I feel the same way about Hughes but I'll reserve judgement for another year...but this year was horrific.

Haha all your goalpost shifting is funny. Nico is barely 21. I say this every time you bring up this bullshit. Zach Parise had not played a single game in the NHL when he was Nico's age. Not one game.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

There's been a visible shift in Hischier's mentality post-Hall. No question he's a grown a lot in the past ~30 games and he hasn't near hit his ceiling yet. Next season will be big for him.

Same with Hughes, but leaving the production aside, the quality of his play at times is a bit concerning. Just not engaged enough in the play. Terrible situation for him this season, though.

 

[JimEIV]

Going on Year 4 and your still waiting for 1st line production. ...okeedokey.

 

[guitarguyvic]

I don’t think it’s reasonable to demand an 18 year old be lights out, but it’s alarming when #1 overall appears to be completely lost out there as is the case with Jack right now.

I do think Nico is a legit Bergeron type player and it’s absolutely incorrect that if that’s what we have he doesn’t qualify as a core player. Bergeron is one of Boston’s foundational pieces. The problem is - outside of Nico I see no one else in that tier. Hughes might be but the only thing we know right now is that he appears to not even be ready for the nhl, much less anointed a foundational piece. Even in a best case scenario where he meets his potential, we are 7 years in futility now and still in need of a significant influx of top tier talent. Really this is a disgraceful position to be in after this many seasons of sucktitude.

 

[JimEIV]

Reminds a lot of the time period right before everyone was forced to realize Larsson was not and never would be a top pairing defender. But damn this board argued the opposite for 4 years....DeBoer's fault...bad team, no confidence it all change next year. ...Yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Going on Year 4 and your still waiting for 1st line production. ...okeedokey.

Has Nico not been producing at first line rate the last 30 games? I think you’re judging too early here. If by midway through next season he is back to being on a 50 point pace then ok maybe you have a point then.

 

[Devils731]

Going on Year 4 and your still waiting for 1st line production. ...okeedokey.

On a cosmic scale Nico’s career is basically over already. Where is his hall of fame induction? Bad pick.

I don’t understand the pleasure in “I say ridiculous stuff and look people disagree, this is amusing” discussions.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Reminds a lot of the time period right before everyone was forced to realize Larsson was not and never would be a top pairing defender. But damn this board argued the opposite for 4 years....DeBoer's fault...bad team, no confidence it all change next year. ...Yadda, yadda, yadda.

This is very true. This board loves to pump the tires of current prospects, no matter how little evidence of actual talent materializes. This board rightfully trashes the drafting of the last regime now, but these same people at the time were convinced those shitty prospects they bemoan today were sure to become the next great things.

 

[Blender]

Kirk Muller scored 74 points in year 3 and 94 points in year 4.... MacLean was a 30 goal scorer by year 3, Shanahan by year 3 as well. Elias was a little bit older but by his 3rd full season he was a 70+ point player. Similarly for Parise who was older but was a 30 goal scorer in year 2.... Zajac who is nowhere near a foundational player was at 62 points in year 3 and getting Selke votes...

Generational scoring aside these guys were major contributors to tangible success and improvement. We aren't seeing that with what we have today...you can talk about nuances all you like but this team is going nowhere with Hischier as the go to player...I feel the same way about Hughes but I'll reserve judgement for another year...but this year was horrific.

Laughable comparison. You're posting intentionally misleading statistics to support your point while ignoring reality. You don't get to call reality "nuances" and brush them off because they don't support your terribly constructed narrative.

Muller was in his D+3 season at least, but he also played in the 1980s where scoring was significantly higher. Muller's 76 points in 79 games in 86-87 is equivalent to 63 points in 19-20 based on scoring rates. Hischier is on a 57 point pace over 82 games right now despite his horrible start to the season, so not far off.

MacLean scored 30 goals in his D+4 season. In his D+3 season in 85-86 he scored 57 points in 74 games which is equivalent to 43 points in 19-20. His 31 goals and 67 points in 86-87 is equivalent to 25 goals and 55 points in 19-20.

Shanahan scored 30 goals and 72 points in 73 games in his D+3 season in 89-90. That's equivalent to 25 goals and 60 points in 19-20.

Elias played 57 games in Albany in his D+3 season and only 17 games in the NHL, where he got 5 points.

Parise scored 32 points in 81 games in his D+3 season in 05-06.

Zajac scored 42 points in 80 games in his D+3 season in 06-07.

 

[devilsblood]

Going on Year 4 and your still waiting for 1st line production. ...okeedokey.

Or we can say he is 21 years old, in the middle of his 3rd year, and is currently producing on the fringe of 1st line levels.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

This is very true. This board loves to pump the tires of current prospects, no matter how little evidence of actual talent materializes. This board rightfully trashes the drafting of the last regime now, but these same people at the time were convinced those ****ty prospects they bemoan today were sure to become the next great things.

You just described every fanbase in the league.

Adam Larsson was a kid with pedigree, who had played at the top level in Sweden and was a potential #1 pick when we snagged him at #4. It's no secret defenseman, especially ones playing at 18 in the NHL, take longer to develop. He showed enough year 1 to think there was a lot of untapped potential there, unfortunately, it never materialized. Larsson was also on some god-awful Devils teams.

 

[Blender]

Or we can say he is 21 years old, in the middle of his 3rd year, and is currently producing on the fringe of 1st line levels.

He's intentionally using years in the NHL as a metric instead of development years, despite development years being the actual important timeline for comparison.

Gusev has 31 points in 48 games in year 1 so far, which is a 52 point pace. That means he's just as good of a player as Hischier because Hischier got 52 points in year 1!

 

[Better Call Sal]

Laughable comparison. You're posting intentionally misleading statistics to support your point while ignoring reality. You don't get to call reality "nuances" and brush them off because they don't support your terribly constructed narrative.

Muller was in his D+3 season at least, but he also played in the 1980s where scoring was significantly higher. Muller's 76 points in 79 games in 86-87 is equivalent to 63 points in 19-20 based on scoring rates. Hischier is on a 57 point pace over 82 games right now despite his horrible start to the season, so not far off.

MacLean scored 30 goals in his D+4 season. In his D+3 season in 85-86 he scored 57 points in 74 games which is equivalent to 43 points in 19-20. His 31 goals and 67 points in 86-87 is equivalent to 25 goals and 55 points in 19-20.

Shanahan scored 30 goals and 72 points in 73 games in his D+3 season in 89-90. That's equivalent to 25 goals and 60 points in 19-20.

Elias played 57 games in Albany in his D+3 season and only 17 games in the NHL, where he got 5 points.

Parise scored 32 points in 81 games in his D+3 season in 05-06.

Zajac scored 42 points in 80 games in his D+3 season in 06-07.

Thank you for doing the lord’s work.

 

[devilsblood]

He's intentionally using years in the NHL as a metric instead of development years, despite development years being the actual important timeline for comparison.

Gusev has 31 points in 48 games in year 1 so far, which is a 52 point pace. That means he's just as good of a player as Hischier because Hischier got 52 points in year 1!

Ya, I'm familiar with Jim.

But the board has been pretty dead lately, so I welcome it.

 

[JimEIV]

Nico hasn't past 2nd line production in 3 years....he is currently listed as the 51 center (124th overall) in the league in scoring...for a little context Coleman is listed as 67th....that is f***ing abysmal for a #1 overall.

 

[Blender]

Nico hasn't past 2nd line production in 3 years....he is currently listed as the 51 center in the league in scoring...for a little context Coleman is listed as 67th....that is ****ing abysmal for a #1 overall.

MacKinnon also had 52 points in 72 games in his D+3 season. What an abysmal player he is.

 

[devilsblood]

Nico hasn't past 2nd line production in 3 years....he is currently listed as the 51 center in the league in scoring...for a little context Coleman is listed as 67th....that is ****ing abysmal for a #1 overall.

A)Again, looking through Nico's production through the lens of his draft status is a goal post shift. The question was is Nico a foundational piece.

B)How many of those guys listed as centers are actually playing wing?

He is tied for 99th in fwd points. If he had 1 more point he'd be in the "1st line" level.

 

[JimEIV]

A)Again, looking through Nico's production through the lens of his draft status is a goal post shift. The question was is Nico a foundational piece.

B)How many of those guys listed as centers are actually playing wing?

He is tied for 99th in fwd points. If he had 1 more point he'd be in the "1st line" level.

How the hell can a guy 124 th in the league in scoring be a foundational piece? What are you expecting? Where do you think he's going from here? Perhaps a lower tier legit 1st line players making 7.25 million a year? Foundational? You gotta be f***ing shitting me.

99th in forwards that means there are 25 defensemen better offensively than he is holy shit it's even more terrible than 1st glance.

 

[devilsblood]

How the hell can a guy 124 th in the league in scoring be a foundational piece? What are you expecting? Where do you think he's going from here? Perhaps a lower tier legit 1st line players making 7.25 million a year? Foundational? You gotta be ****ing ****ting me.

He turned 21 a month ago.

 

[JimEIV]

He turned 21 a month ago.

Great. When he is 25 he might be good.