Player Discussion Darnell Nurse

[McTonyBrar]

Should I have specified that the stat I was referring to was with McDavid off the ice?

It should have been obvious when you replied to a post containing "His inflated point totals actually come from his insanely lucky scoring when McDavid isn’t on the ice."

I read it wrong. Apologies!

 

[CupofOil]

Playing great. No complaints.

But his stint w/ Bear or any other dman for that matter isn't close to what he looks like right now.
Tipp has him and Barrie playing the majority of their minutes w/ McD, and then Drai.
Hopefully this top pairing hype doesn't carry on into his contract, cuz his #s with harder minutes aren't as favorable

Minutes played with McDavid and Draisaitl ARE harder minutes and most top Dmen play with the top forwards because top Dmen and top forwards play the hard minutes.
I just don't get this diminishing his accomplishments because he plays a lot of minutes with the best players. It's a compliment to his game actually that he's excelling with the best players playing against the best opposition.

With that said, it's a 20 game sample size so expectations should be measured but, right now, he's playing like a #1 defenseman and the team, and his D partners, are benefitting as a result.
@Cloned would have a Field Day with that last sentence with all the commas

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Apologies if I'm confused and you aren't talking about Nurse, but he has eight of his nine 5v5 points with McDavid on the ice, so I don't think that's it.


Also I don't think the Bear vs. Barrie is entirely a straight across comparison. They started to play ugly Tippett hockey after Bear was injured and there's likely some score effects happening. They're 5 minutes short of spending twice the 5v5 time with a lead in the 9 games without Bear as the 10 games with Bear.

Fair, I wasnt really sorting by actual points, just goals for/against while those pairings were on the ice with and without McDavid. I should have gone deeper into that.

Either way, we have room on this team for both Bear and Barrie.

 

[bone]

Minutes played with McDavid and Draisaitl ARE harder minutes and most top Dmen play with the top forwards because top Dmen and top forwards play the hard minutes.
I just don't get this diminishing his accomplishments because he plays a lot of minutes with the best players. It's a compliment to his game actually that he's excelling with the best players playing against the best opposition.

With that said, it's a 20 game sample size so expectations should be measured but, right now, he's playing like a #1 defenseman and the team, and his D partners, are benefitting as a result.

That's a factor often lost on people. The current NHL tends to put the best players up against the best instead of the old time checking line scenario. So when defensemen are playing with McDavid, they are also playing against the other teams best scorers as well. As such, they need to be able to defend against good players and help get the McDavid in stride and become an option to increase his chances of scoring.

 

[McDNicks17]

Fair, I wasnt really sorting by actual points, just goals for/against while those pairings were on the ice with and without McDavid. I should have gone deeper into that.

Either way, we have room on this team for both Bear and Barrie.

Agreed. If they want to run McDrai on separate lines, I think they definitely need at least a couple pairings with strong puck-movers.

I've really liked Nurse/Barrie's chemistry with McDavid. It's felt those two were his wingers for a few games.

I'm hoping Bouch/Bear get a fair shot together. I'd think they'd be a good fit with Draisaitl's line and they could definitely use a bit of a shot in the arm at 5v5.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Agreed. If they want to run McDrai on separate lines, I think they definitely need at least a couple pairings with strong puck-movers.

I've really liked Nurse/Barrie's chemistry with McDavid. It's felt those two were his wingers for a few games.

I'm hoping Bouch/Bear get a fair shot together. I'd think they'd be a good fit with Draisaitl's line and they could definitely use a bit of a shot in the arm at 5v5.

Draisaitl and Bouch should be a good combo, Bouchard just loves to shoot the puck, and thats what that second line desperately needs.

 

[CupofOil]

Can I say that I've liked Nurse more this year than years past, say that I think he's taken a step forward, but also say he hasn't been playing like a number one?? Still think that he's a liability too often?? Think that this season creates a soft schedule and his point totals are grossly inflated?? Just because he's forced to play #1 minutes does not mean he should. If his next contract has an 8 in it, I'm scared...

I think he's ideally a 6mil aav, 2nd pair option. No problem giving him term though.

Two things can be true at the same time.

You can say that but you'd be wrong IMO.

He's playing 25 minutes a night (with minimal PP time) on a winning team, has a bunch of even strength points and is a massive +. Yeah, he makes a few mistakes like every Dman in the league does and he still has an unnecessary icing or two every game seemingly, but what's your criteria for #1 Dman level play if this isn't it?

FTR, I'd also be a little concerned about giving him $8M+ because the larger sample size shows that he's more of a #2/#3 than a #1 and I don't expect him to maintain this very high level of play going forward but thus far this season, this is what a #1 Dman looks like. Not like top 10 Dman in the league or anything like that but he's carrying the load of a #1 Dman and is wildly succeeding in that role.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

You can say that but you'd be wrong.

He's playing 25 minutes a night (with minimal PP time) on a winning team, has a bunch of even strength points and is a massive +. Yeah, he makes a few mistakes like every Dman in the league does, but what's your criteria for #1 Dman level play if this isn't it?

FTR, I'd also be a little concerned about giving him $8M+ because the larger sample size shows that he's more of a #2/#3 than a #1 and I don't expect him to maintain this very high level of play going forward but thus far this season, this is what a #1 Dman looks like. Not like top 10 Dman in the league but he's carrying the load of a #1 Dman and is wildly succeeding in that role.

He's first in the league among D in 5on5 minutes in both total and per game.

He's averaging like 20:09 per game, pretty impressive.

 

[McTonyBrar]

You mean literally a week away from the half way point of the season?

 

[Spawn]

Can I say that I've liked Nurse more this year than years past, say that I think he's taken a step forward, but also say he hasn't been playing like a number one?? Still think that he's a liability too often?? Think that this season creates a soft schedule and his point totals are grossly inflated?? Just because he's forced to play #1 minutes does not mean he should. If his next contract has an 8 in it, I'm scared...

I think he's ideally a 6mil aav, 2nd pair option. No problem giving him term though.

Two things can be true at the same time.

With all due respect, if you don't think he's playing like a number one d-man you have a skewed perception of what a number one d-man is. He's not playing like a prime Chris Pronger or Drew Doughty. That doesn't mean he's not playing like a #1 d-man.

It is a small sample size though. I would agree it's too early to discuss giving him an $8M extension. But we've got the rest of this season and next season to figure out what kind of contract we want to give him next.

But for right now he's certainly playing like a #1 d-man.

 

[Oilerfan88]

Was annoyed with the man at the beginning of the season. Well the whole entire D core. He really stepped it up. Eating a minutes every game, scoring points and making less mistakes. Kudos Nurse

 

[bobbythebrain]

Minutes played with McDavid and Draisaitl ARE harder minutes and most top Dmen play with the top forwards because top Dmen and top forwards play the hard minutes.
I just don't get this diminishing his accomplishments because he plays a lot of minutes with the best players. It's a compliment to his game actually that he's excelling with the best players playing against the best opposition.

With that said, it's a 20 game sample size so expectations should be measured but, right now, he's playing like a #1 defenseman and the team, and his D partners, are benefitting as a result.
@Cloned would have a Field Day with that last sentence with all the commas

What? Erik Gustaffson, arguably worst defenseman in the NHL, put up 60+ points saddled to Kane.

And why do people keep calling it a 20 game sample size? It's not. Nurse - Bear was the tandem and they were not very good outside 1 game.
When Nurse got paired w/ Barrie , Tipp also exclusively sent that duo out every shift w/ McD.
That's when his game took off.
Clearly one thing/s has to do with the other

Let's also not forget JP and Barrie. Since JP was put on that line he has helped the forecheck tremendously. He's also been pretty good in his zone getting pucks out along the boards as he is big and dmen have a hard time pinching him. With Kassian, McD's line was strictly transition without much ozone time. Barrie...while not a defensive stalwart, has been fantastic in the ozone too extending possession.
So alot of Nurse's current metrics are being filtered in by other players.

Is he playing well...yes. IAm I happy they are as a team?....yes

But declaring this guy a top dman without context?....no

 

[bone]

Sometimes peoples views of a number 1 defensemen are distorted. Based on averages, any of the top 31 defensemen (top 32 next year) in the league could qualify as a #1 dman. Naturally there are high end number 1s and lower end number 1s, but I don't see it as a stretch at all to suggest Nurses recent play is good enough to be considered top 31 in the league.

That said, using the same logic, the 31st highest paid dman in the league is $6M cap hit. So right now he's playing a bit above his cap hit, but I do get nervous when I see $8M, as that isn't just a #1 dmen on their team, but rather top 10 in the league. As such, he needs Norris votes (emphasis on the plural) before I consider those kind of numbers. Granted, the league wide numbers for top end defensemen may go up by the time his next contract is due, but that's not necessarily a guarantee either with the current financial climate.

 

[joestevens29]

Sometimes peoples views of a number 1 defensemen are distorted. Based on averages, any of the top 31 defensemen (top 32 next year) in the league could qualify as a #1 dman. Naturally there are high end number 1s and lower end number 1s, but I don't see it as a stretch at all to suggest Nurses recent play is good enough to be considered top 31 in the league.

That said, using the same logic, the 31st highest paid dman in the league is $6M cap hit. So right now he's playing a bit above his cap hit, but I do get nervous when I see $8M, as that isn't just a #1 dmen on their team, but rather top 10 in the league. As such, he needs Norris votes (emphasis on the plural) before I consider those kind of numbers. Granted, the league wide numbers for top end defensemen may go up by the time his next contract is due, but that's not necessarily a guarantee either with the current financial climate.

So what you are saying is if Toronto media was smart they'd vote for Nurse just to screw the Oilers on a contract.

 

[bone]

So what you are saying is if Toronto media was smart they'd vote for Nurse just to screw the Oilers on a contract.

Sure, if they actually care about what the Oilers pay on their contracts, it probably would hurt the Oilers on resigning him to the number they'd like.

A quick glance at all the top paid defensemen, and the only one over $6.25M without a Norris vote at some point in their career is Trouba. That's why I say people using his contract as the starting point are ignoring that he got way above market value. Heck, the only time Trouba even got All-Star votes he finished 22nd amongst d-men and that was 5 years ago. There is no rationale anywhere that suggests Trouba's contract (top 10 amongst dmen league wide) was ever close to market value.

 

[GOilers88]

Sure, if they actually care about what the Oilers pay on their contracts, it probably would hurt the Oilers on resigning him to the number they'd like.

A quick glance at all the top paid defensemen, and the only one over $6.25M without a Norris vote at some point in their career is Trouba. That's why I say people using his contract as the starting point are ignoring that he got way above market value. Heck, the only time Trouba even got All-Star votes he finished 22nd amongst d-men and that was 5 years ago. There is no rationale anywhere that suggests Trouba's contract (top 10 amongst dmen league wide) was ever close to market value.

Even crazier when you know that he only wanted to go to NY and there was no bidding war to drive up the price.

 

[Nostradumbass]

I haven't heard from Raab for a while, is he okay?

 

[Nostradumbass]

I just hope Holland waits as long as possible to resign Nurse so he can most accurately gauge a fair market value.

As it stands, Nurse Barrie and Klefbom are all 3 essentially the same player and you really only need 1-2 puck moving defensive liability Dmen on a team. If you massively overpay one based on an upward trend or a single strong year then you run the risk of getting left holding the stick. As good as Barrie and Nurse have been this year I would not consider either of them a Norris contender at this point so hopefully they don't get extended for Norris tier money, but I would like to see them both retained.

As another poster said, temper your expectations, being the best Dman on a middle of the pack team in the weakest division in hockey during a season of limited competition is not a sound basis to give big money contracts on. Next season should be a better litmus test to see if Nurse is truly the franchise top pairing DMan we all hope he is.

This post makes it clear you are a fan of another team, not the Oilers. Barrie, Nurse, and Klefbom are 3 extremely different players and the "weakest division in hockey" is on par with every division but the East. Nurse and Klefbom are not defensive liabilities and Barrie is the only true puck mover in the list.

 

[Canovin]

I haven't heard from Raab for a while, is he okay?

Also, JumpTheShark and Nexttothemoon

 

[bone]

Yeah, I don't buy the weakest division in hockey claim. Granted this isn't East where the top 5 teams are all really good, arguably top 10 in the league, but we don't have as much cannon fodder as the West.

I think our division isn't much different than the Central where they also only have one team that didn't participate in the return to play that is likely to be one of the highest odds teams at winning the lottery, followed a bunch of the middle of the pack teams and a really strong Tampa team. Tampa's obviously better than Toronto, but I'd argue our middle of the pack teams might be a little stronger as well.

Some might try to argue Dallas because of their run last year, but really they were a team that had less points than Edmonton last year, but only got to skip the play-ins on virtue of playing less games and their start isn't overly impressive this year (granted it has had a lot of stop and starts).

 

[bobbythebrain]

That's a factor often lost on people. The current NHL tends to put the best players up against the best instead of the old time checking line scenario. So when defensemen are playing with McDavid, they are also playing against the other teams best scorers as well. As such, they need to be able to defend against good players and help get the McDavid in stride and become an option to increase his chances of scoring.

Lost on people? This just isn't true...like at all.
Hence why Gustaffson put up 60 points with Kane.
Why Nuge put up more points on Drais wing vs centering his own line.
Why Marner wasn't producing when he got put on Martins line for a month.
Why Konecny stopped producing when Hakstol buried him on the 4th line(that line still got significant minutes)
Why Rantanens pace came to a crawl without Mack.

Good players play with good players for a reason.
So this notion that it's harder is quite false.
Just ask Jonathan Cheechoo if playing on Joe Thortons line was "harder" .

 

[The Nuge]

Can I say that I've liked Nurse more this year than years past, say that I think he's taken a step forward, but also say he hasn't been playing like a number one?? Still think that he's a liability too often?? Think that this season creates a soft schedule and his point totals are grossly inflated?? Just because he's forced to play #1 minutes does not mean he should. If his next contract has an 8 in it, I'm scared...

I think he's ideally a 6mil aav, 2nd pair option. No problem giving him term though.

Two things can be true at the same time.

This is more or less where I’m at. He was a good #3 before. I think he’s established himself as at least a #2 right now, but I’m not prepared to call him a #1 yet. When you factor in Covid, a deal like 8 years (he’ll have just turned 35 when it ends) at 6.5 is probably our best case scenario. There’s a good chance we have to go as high as 7.5 though

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

I just hope Holland waits as long as possible to resign Nurse so he can most accurately gauge a fair market value.

As it stands, Nurse Barrie and Klefbom are all 3 essentially the same player and you really only need 1-2 puck moving defensive liability Dmen on a team. If you massively overpay one based on an upward trend or a single strong year then you run the risk of getting left holding the stick. As good as Barrie and Nurse have been this year I would not consider either of them a Norris contender at this point so hopefully they don't get extended for Norris tier money, but I would like to see them both retained.

As another poster said, temper your expectations, being the best Dman on a middle of the pack team in the weakest division in hockey during a season of limited competition is not a sound basis to give big money contracts on. Next season should be a better litmus test to see if Nurse is truly the franchise top pairing DMan we all hope he is.

What?

 

[ImmuneEH]

Minutes played with McDavid and Draisaitl ARE harder minutes and most top Dmen play with the top forwards because top Dmen and top forwards play the hard minutes.
I just don't get this diminishing his accomplishments because he plays a lot of minutes with the best players. It's a compliment to his game actually that he's excelling with the best players playing against the best opposition.

With that said, it's a 20 game sample size so expectations should be measured but, right now, he's playing like a #1 defenseman and the team, and his D partners, are benefitting as a result.
@Cloned would have a Field Day with that last sentence with all the commas

If 20 games isn't a good sample size, what is?

 

[North Cole]

Nurse has played incredible this season. This is a painful reality for some Oilers "fans" still.

No player is going to maintain a high level of play without blips or dips from time to time so I hope the usual suspects that love to rip on him keep this in mind when he inevitably has a stretch where he isn't playing out of his mind like he is currently.

What's disappointing, and expected, is the certain people (who've posted in the past couple pages) who I've noticed don't hesitate to jump on him when he ices the puck or misses an assignment in games absolutely refuse to acknowledge or praise this player when he does something well. Go through the GDT's - they make a concerted effort to willfully omit any positives. And that's becoming a constant occurrence. They almost seem more invested in seeing Nurse fail so their biases and notions can be proven correct at the expense of team success.

It's quite pathetic. I'd ask why Klefbom and other players don't have their individual points micro analyzed to a ridiculous degree in an attempt to diminish and denigrate them but it'd be a rhetorical query that we all know the answer to.

The guy has been our best defenseman for the past 2 seasons and is blossoming before our eyes. Better get used to it because Nurse isn't going anywhere, enjoys being an Oiler, is part of the leadership core and is tight with McDavid and Draisaitl.

I'm sorry, I don't know what the answer to bold is or, the purpose of this statement. Are you inferring that people are subjecting Nurse to more criticisms because of race or something? By denigrating, I assume you mean the low IQ comments, but the same was said about Poolparty and Yakupov, MPS, etc. Nurse is not isolated in being called low IQ.

Klefbom did get a "ridiculous" degree of micro analysis and criticism both during and after his abysmal performance in the play-ins. Him being out of sight and out of mind this season doesn't change that. Barrie was starting to get criticism for the first 5 games when he looked like a lame duck.

What is "the answer"?