Discussion in 'Edmonton Oilers' started by replacement, Jan 11, 2019.
I read it wrong. Apologies!
Minutes played with McDavid and Draisaitl ARE harder minutes and most top Dmen play with the top forwards because top Dmen and top forwards play the hard minutes.
I just don't get this diminishing his accomplishments because he plays a lot of minutes with the best players. It's a compliment to his game actually that he's excelling with the best players playing against the best opposition.
With that said, it's a 20 game sample size so expectations should be measured but, right now, he's playing like a #1 defenseman and the team, and his D partners, are benefitting as a result.
@Cloned would have a Field Day with that last sentence with all the commas
Fair, I wasnt really sorting by actual points, just goals for/against while those pairings were on the ice with and without McDavid. I should have gone deeper into that.
Either way, we have room on this team for both Bear and Barrie.
That's a factor often lost on people. The current NHL tends to put the best players up against the best instead of the old time checking line scenario. So when defensemen are playing with McDavid, they are also playing against the other teams best scorers as well. As such, they need to be able to defend against good players and help get the McDavid in stride and become an option to increase his chances of scoring.
Agreed. If they want to run McDrai on separate lines, I think they definitely need at least a couple pairings with strong puck-movers.
I've really liked Nurse/Barrie's chemistry with McDavid. It's felt those two were his wingers for a few games.
I'm hoping Bouch/Bear get a fair shot together. I'd think they'd be a good fit with Draisaitl's line and they could definitely use a bit of a shot in the arm at 5v5.
Draisaitl and Bouch should be a good combo, Bouchard just loves to shoot the puck, and thats what that second line desperately needs.
You can say that but you'd be wrong IMO.
He's playing 25 minutes a night (with minimal PP time) on a winning team, has a bunch of even strength points and is a massive +. Yeah, he makes a few mistakes like every Dman in the league does and he still has an unnecessary icing or two every game seemingly, but what's your criteria for #1 Dman level play if this isn't it?
FTR, I'd also be a little concerned about giving him $8M+ because the larger sample size shows that he's more of a #2/#3 than a #1 and I don't expect him to maintain this very high level of play going forward but thus far this season, this is what a #1 Dman looks like. Not like top 10 Dman in the league or anything like that but he's carrying the load of a #1 Dman and is wildly succeeding in that role.
He's first in the league among D in 5on5 minutes in both total and per game.
He's averaging like 20:09 per game, pretty impressive.
You mean literally a week away from the half way point of the season?
With all due respect, if you don't think he's playing like a number one d-man you have a skewed perception of what a number one d-man is. He's not playing like a prime Chris Pronger or Drew Doughty. That doesn't mean he's not playing like a #1 d-man.
It is a small sample size though. I would agree it's too early to discuss giving him an $8M extension. But we've got the rest of this season and next season to figure out what kind of contract we want to give him next.
But for right now he's certainly playing like a #1 d-man.
Was annoyed with the man at the beginning of the season. Well the whole entire D core. He really stepped it up. Eating a minutes every game, scoring points and making less mistakes. Kudos Nurse
What? Erik Gustaffson, arguably worst defenseman in the NHL, put up 60+ points saddled to Kane.
And why do people keep calling it a 20 game sample size? It's not. Nurse - Bear was the tandem and they were not very good outside 1 game.
When Nurse got paired w/ Barrie , Tipp also exclusively sent that duo out every shift w/ McD.
That's when his game took off.
Clearly one thing/s has to do with the other
Let's also not forget JP and Barrie. Since JP was put on that line he has helped the forecheck tremendously. He's also been pretty good in his zone getting pucks out along the boards as he is big and dmen have a hard time pinching him. With Kassian, McD's line was strictly transition without much ozone time. Barrie...while not a defensive stalwart, has been fantastic in the ozone too extending possession.
So alot of Nurse's current metrics are being filtered in by other players.
Is he playing well...yes. IAm I happy they are as a team?....yes
But declaring this guy a top dman without context?....no
Sometimes peoples views of a number 1 defensemen are distorted. Based on averages, any of the top 31 defensemen (top 32 next year) in the league could qualify as a #1 dman. Naturally there are high end number 1s and lower end number 1s, but I don't see it as a stretch at all to suggest Nurses recent play is good enough to be considered top 31 in the league.
That said, using the same logic, the 31st highest paid dman in the league is $6M cap hit. So right now he's playing a bit above his cap hit, but I do get nervous when I see $8M, as that isn't just a #1 dmen on their team, but rather top 10 in the league. As such, he needs Norris votes (emphasis on the plural) before I consider those kind of numbers. Granted, the league wide numbers for top end defensemen may go up by the time his next contract is due, but that's not necessarily a guarantee either with the current financial climate.
So what you are saying is if Toronto media was smart they'd vote for Nurse just to screw the Oilers on a contract.
Sure, if they actually care about what the Oilers pay on their contracts, it probably would hurt the Oilers on resigning him to the number they'd like.
A quick glance at all the top paid defensemen, and the only one over $6.25M without a Norris vote at some point in their career is Trouba. That's why I say people using his contract as the starting point are ignoring that he got way above market value. Heck, the only time Trouba even got All-Star votes he finished 22nd amongst d-men and that was 5 years ago. There is no rationale anywhere that suggests Trouba's contract (top 10 amongst dmen league wide) was ever close to market value.
Even crazier when you know that he only wanted to go to NY and there was no bidding war to drive up the price.
I haven't heard from Raab for a while, is he okay?
This post makes it clear you are a fan of another team, not the Oilers. Barrie, Nurse, and Klefbom are 3 extremely different players and the "weakest division in hockey" is on par with every division but the East. Nurse and Klefbom are not defensive liabilities and Barrie is the only true puck mover in the list.
Also, JumpTheShark and Nexttothemoon
Yeah, I don't buy the weakest division in hockey claim. Granted this isn't East where the top 5 teams are all really good, arguably top 10 in the league, but we don't have as much cannon fodder as the West.
I think our division isn't much different than the Central where they also only have one team that didn't participate in the return to play that is likely to be one of the highest odds teams at winning the lottery, followed a bunch of the middle of the pack teams and a really strong Tampa team. Tampa's obviously better than Toronto, but I'd argue our middle of the pack teams might be a little stronger as well.
Some might try to argue Dallas because of their run last year, but really they were a team that had less points than Edmonton last year, but only got to skip the play-ins on virtue of playing less games and their start isn't overly impressive this year (granted it has had a lot of stop and starts).
Lost on people? This just isn't true...like at all.
Hence why Gustaffson put up 60 points with Kane.
Why Nuge put up more points on Drais wing vs centering his own line.
Why Marner wasn't producing when he got put on Martins line for a month.
Why Konecny stopped producing when Hakstol buried him on the 4th line(that line still got significant minutes)
Why Rantanens pace came to a crawl without Mack.
Good players play with good players for a reason.
So this notion that it's harder is quite false.
Just ask Jonathan Cheechoo if playing on Joe Thortons line was "harder" .
This is more or less where I’m at. He was a good #3 before. I think he’s established himself as at least a #2 right now, but I’m not prepared to call him a #1 yet. When you factor in Covid, a deal like 8 years (he’ll have just turned 35 when it ends) at 6.5 is probably our best case scenario. There’s a good chance we have to go as high as 7.5 though
If 20 games isn't a good sample size, what is?
I'm sorry, I don't know what the answer to bold is or, the purpose of this statement. Are you inferring that people are subjecting Nurse to more criticisms because of race or something? By denigrating, I assume you mean the low IQ comments, but the same was said about Poolparty and Yakupov, MPS, etc. Nurse is not isolated in being called low IQ.
Klefbom did get a "ridiculous" degree of micro analysis and criticism both during and after his abysmal performance in the play-ins. Him being out of sight and out of mind this season doesn't change that. Barrie was starting to get criticism for the first 5 games when he looked like a lame duck.
What is "the answer"?
Separate names with a comma.