Player Discussion Danton Heinen VII

[LSCII]

or score?

(I think he's been fine this year defensively by the way)

Nobody outside the top line has really scored, so your point is very watered down. If they had all lines going and only Heinen wasn't scoring, it would be a valid point, but as it stands today, who on any line not centered by Bergeron is actually scoring?

 

[LSCII]

Not directed at you.....but the linked article is exactly what I hate about today's game.

It used to be that you'd watch a guy play and decide whether or not you liked their game.

Today, a guy joins a team, 100 games into his career people look at his "stats" (the 34 dozen that are available now) and those stats tell you that have to like him or not based on the current thinking.

Exactly. If you have to delve into the world of advanced stats and need a degree in biochemistry to be able to figure out whether a player is good or bad, the player isn't doing what they need to be doing. Simple as that.

 

[Sheppy]

Nobody outside the top line has really scored, so your point is very watered down. If they had all lines going and only Heinen wasn't scoring, it would be a valid point, but as it stands today, who on any line not centered by Bergeron is actually scoring?

I don't disagree, but like 16 goals in like his last 130 games is a bit of a concern.

Don't get me wrong, defensively he's sound. But offensively, especially the last two seasons... he's not good. Like at all.

 

[LSCII]

I'm not disagreeing with that, but I don't think everyone who's critiquing Heinen are wrong either.

Ritchie isn't the most offensively talented guy, obviously, but he makes $1M a year.

The issues I have with Ritchie isn't on him. It's the way they're using him. It's not what or who he is as a player. It's the same issue I had with them suggesting last year that Sean Kuraly could slot up to be their 3rd line center. He couldn't because it was beyond his skill set. You as a front office and coaching staff need to be able to put guys into a position to succeed. And asking guys to play above their abilities just because you failed as a GM to fill a hole at RW on the second and third lines for years isn't realistic or fair. Ritchie isn't what they want him to be. Time to put a young guy up there and see if they can sink or swim.

 

[LSCII]

I don't disagree, but like 16 goals in like his last 130 games is a bit of a concern.

Don't get me wrong, defensively he's sound. But offensively, especially the last two seasons... he's not good.

Now you're getting into the territory I like to discuss, but most here don't. Why is it okay to dress a player that's only defensively responsible with very little offensive upside, while a player with good offensive potential but limited defensive ability not?

 

[Sheppy]

Now you're getting into the territory I like to discuss, but most here don't. Why is it okay to dress a player that's only defensively responsible with very little offensive upside, while a player with good offensive potential but limited defensive ability not?

The opposite of Ryan Spooner. He was absolutely torched on here because he was defensively bad, but had above average offence.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Nobody outside the top line has really scored, so your point is very watered down. If they had all lines going and only Heinen wasn't scoring, it would be a valid point, but as it stands today, who on any line not centered by Bergeron is actually scoring?

Ritchie!

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

We tend to go from one scoring line to zero scoring lines when we mess with that.

didn't Heinen basically have a point per game month when we did it last year? And that line was better defensively than with Pasta? In theory, if Heinen can produce more with Marchand & Bergeron and JDB/Krejci/Pasta can win their 2nd line matchup consistently then it could work.

Plus you still get 63/37/88 on the PP where they are getting like half of their production anyway.

I think 63/37/43 & 74/46/88 makes us a better 5 on 5 team and doesn't hurt the PP at all.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

We tend to go from one scoring line to zero scoring lines when we mess with that.

I'd argue you're closer to having two lines that have a reasonable chance of scoring more than the oddball goal than you are moving towards zero lines.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Always looking to rob Peter to pay Paul. You need DK to be better, so rather than Sweeney finding a decent wing for that line or making DK elevate his individual play, you want to weaken the only line they have that consistently produces? It's fools gold to do this. Even if it works for the short term, DK has shown he's a streaky as **** player that's every bit as likely to go hot and cold whether he has Pasta or not.

You want a better wing for DK and so do I. But the solution isn't to destroy the only line they have that's working.

Keeping Marchy and Bergy on the line together is a long way from "Destroying" it. I think that line does fine, and continues to score AND defend if you swap Heinen for Pastrnak. I do think however, you have an argument about reducing Pasta's effectiveness taking him away from those two. But if putting Heinen on the Bergy line and Pasta on Krejci's makes the second line more effective and more dangerous, I don't see the harm in giving it a good look.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

See, the issue with giving Pasta to DK is that they don't play well together and have very little chemistry. So I disagree completely with your view. I'd rather have one great line than 4 ****ty ones that don't produce and try to fill the 2nd line RW with a deadline move instead.

Is this hyperbole, or do you REALLY think any line with Bergy and Marchy would be shitty line just because Pasta isn't on it anymore?

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

Keeping Marchy and Bergy on the line together is a long way from "Destroying" it. I think that line does fine, and continues to score AND defend if you swap Heinen for Pastrnak. I do think however, you have an argument about reducing Pasta's effectiveness taking him away from those two. But if putting Heinen on the Bergy line and Pasta on Krejci's makes the second line more effective and more dangerous, I don't see the harm in giving it a good look.

I was at the Colorado game & Pasta was dominant. I really think he's in his prime right now and is very much a player who can generate offense regardless of who is on his line. Yeah, those 3 together have great chemistry, but Pasta is still going to produce with JDB & Krejci. The biggest concern I have is just that it probably reduces Pasta's minutes a bit.

I think having the option to give more d-zone starts to the Bergeron line & more O-zone starts to the Krejci line helps offset that though.

 

[LSCII]

Is this hyperbole, or do you REALLY think any line with Bergy and Marchy would be ****ty line just because Pasta isn't on it anymore?

Definitely less productive. And it's really not about that line being bad, but more about DK needing to elevate instead of them having to break up a line that just clicks to get him going.

 

[LSCII]

Keeping Marchy and Bergy on the line together is a long way from "Destroying" it. I think that line does fine, and continues to score AND defend if you swap Heinen for Pastrnak. I do think however, you have an argument about reducing Pasta's effectiveness taking him away from those two. But if putting Heinen on the Bergy line and Pasta on Krejci's makes the second line more effective and more dangerous, I don't see the harm in giving it a good look.

But they've done that with mixed results at best. It's got nothing to do with Pasta and everything to do DK being a streaky player. He'll get hot whether Pasta is there or not. Just like he'll cool off whether Pasta is there or not. I personally would not want to limit Pasta's production by putting him with a guy like that.

 

[LSCII]

The opposite of Ryan Spooner. He was absolutely torched on here because he was defensively bad, but had above average offence.

I personally thought Spooner between Lucic and Pasta was a lot of fun to watch, but Claude being Claude couldn't tolerate that.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

The opposite of Ryan Spooner. He was absolutely torched on here because he was defensively bad, but had above average offence.

Was his offense really "above average"? I'm not sure it was. And I think Spooner got his fair ration of shit because his defensive shortcomings weren't overshadowed by elite offensive prowess. Fans will overlook bad defense (cough, Kessell, cough) if they bring the offense at a really high level. Spooner never had that really high level that would make you forget about his defense.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Definitely less productive. And it's really not about that line being bad, but more about DK needing to elevate instead of them having to break up a line that just clicks to get him going.

It's not just Krejci. Wouldn't it also help get JDB going? I'm not sure how you can say definitely less productive. Maybe their production goes down a bit, although recent history doesn't even support that. But if a swap drops bergy's line's production a bit, and raises the second line's a lot, isn't the overall gain worth it? Or does that just create 4 shitty lines like you said?

 

[shoulders7]

Only took 6 games for a poster to jump all over Heinen.

That has to be some sort of record even for here.

You jumped all over Ritchie before the first exhibition game was even played, how is that any different?

 

[LSCII]

Was his offense really "above average"? I'm not sure it was. And I think Spooner got his fair ration of **** because his defensive shortcomings weren't overshadowed by elite offensive prowess. Fans will overlook bad defense (cough, Kessell, cough) if they bring the offense at a really high level. Spooner never had that really high level that would make you forget about his defense.

I don't think it was really his defensive weakness versus how they handled him that made him a polarizing figure here. Claude clearly did not like Spooner and did not want him here. So it became a Claude vs Spooner type scenario, but in reality it was a Claude needed to go scenario for a lot of posters here, myself included.

That was pretty crappy in general the way it played out because during that 14-15 season DK got hurt, Spooner, Lucic and Pasta played very well together while he was out and nearly got them to the playoffs before falling short.

 

[LSCII]

It's not just Krejci. Wouldn't it also help get JDB going? I'm not sure how you can say definitely less productive. Maybe their production goes down a bit, although recent history doesn't even support that. But if a swap drops bergy's line's production a bit, and raises the second line's a lot, isn't the overall gain worth it? Or does that just create 4 ****ty lines like you said?

I'd say it goes down a lot. I personally think that DK and Pasta are not a good combo because DK likes the slower tempo, cycle game and Pasta likes up tempo and open ice skating. But again, why is it always the team needing to get DK going by weakening another line? When does DK as the highest paid member of the team ever step up and elevate his game to make someone else better? I'm just so tired of this silly argument. He's paid as a top player, yet he always needs people to get him going. I'd bet that you could put Marchand or Bergeron on the 3rd line and they'd make the players around them better. If you did that with DK all we'd get is his fanbois crying how the team was screwing DK over again. At what point does it become more about DK than whom he plays with?

 

[DKH]

I'd say it goes down a lot. I personally think that DK and Pasta are not a good combo because DK likes the slower tempo, cycle game and Pasta likes up tempo and open ice skating. But again, why is it always the team needing to get DK going by weakening another line? When does DK as the highest paid member of the team ever step up and elevate his game to make someone else better? I'm just so tired of this silly argument. He's paid as a top player, yet he always needs people to get him going. I'd bet that you could put Marchand or Bergeron on the 3rd line and they'd make the players around them better. If you did that with DK all we'd get is his fanbois crying how the team was screwing DK over again. At what point does it become more about DK than whom he plays with?

When Bergeron was out last year and Krejci centered they were dominant

 

[LSCII]

When Bergeron was out last year and Krejci centered they were dominant

Yes they were, but that was also including Marchand. Without Marchand, they had long stretches of ineffectiveness. I just don't like the combo of DK with Pasta and JDB. Too much of a mismatch of their skills.

 

[member 96824]

63-37-88
74-46-43
10-13-86
4th

You’re welcome Bruce give me 100k

 

[Sheppy]

63-37-88
74-46-43
10-13-86
4th

You’re welcome Bruce give me 100k

Kevan Miller on the wing?

you get 25k tops

 

[member 96824]

Kevan Miller on the wing?

you get 25k tops

I’m an outside the box thinker.

wait until you see where Tuukka lines up.











(oops I meant 83)