Daniel & Henrik Sedin Thread - Part III (MOD Notice Post # 53)

[y2kcanucks]

You make excellent points, but the poster in question won't acknowledge them.

You want to talk about cowering, or not being man enough for a fight, that's this particular poster when challenged with facts. He runs and hides.

Not at all. My rebuttals just seemingly get ignored.

The sample size for that duration is quite a thing eh? Without that one 5 game series against San Jose in 2011, those Sedin numbers take a huge nose dive.

Again, what's the excuse for their lack of production against the worst ranked playoff team to make the playoffs, who were young, inexperienced, and without their top defenseman?

 

[Alan Jackson]

Not at all. My rebuttals just seemingly get ignored.

The sample size for that duration is quite a thing eh? Without that one 5 game series against San Jose in 2011, those Sedin numbers take a huge nose dive.

Again, what's the excuse for their lack of production against the worst ranked playoff team to make the playoffs, who were young, inexperienced, and without their top defenseman?

Again, every star player in the league will have good series and poor series. You fail to grasp this.

Should Tampa trade Stamkos because he hasn't scored enough in these playoffs, and has zero goals in the final? By the way, I posted a detailed account of Kane and Toews' scoring in the Hawks previous cup win. Did you see it? I'm curious as to your thoughts.

You cannot name a single player in the league that hasn't had a series in which they failed to produce.

The Sedins produce offence at the level that's expected of them. End of.

Henrik and Daniel Sedin are the very least of this team's problems. The problem is, they've never been surrounded with the kind of talent they deserve. The previous GM failed to add a single impact forward during his entire tenure here.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Again, every star player in the league will have good series and poor series. You fail to grasp this.

Should Tampa trade Stamkos because he hasn't scored enough in these playoffs, and has zero goals in the final? By the way, I posted a detailed account of Kane and Toews' scoring in the Hawks previous cup win. Did you see it? I'm curious as to your thoughts.

You cannot name a single player in the league that hasn't had a series in which they failed to produce.

The Sedins produce offence at the level that's expected of them. End of.

Henrik and Daniel Sedin are the very least of this team's problems. The problem is, they've never been surrounded with the kind of talent they deserve. The previous GM failed to add a single impact forward during his entire tenure here.

Except the problem with the Sedins is, they don't produce much in most series and are living off of the production of that one SJ series due to a small sample size. Goal production between the twins is not what you would expect when you pay $14M to 2 players. End of story.

 

[Zarpan]

Except the problem with the Sedins is, they don't produce much in most series and are living off of the production of that one SJ series due to a small sample size. Goal production between the twins is not what you would expect when you pay $14M to 2 players. End of story.

Here's playoff production from 2008 onwards (after the Naslund era), taking out the best series for each player (which in Daniel's case was actually the LA series in 2010). That whole bit about the SJ series completely warping their production levels is a red herring.

Kane: 0.94 PPG
Toews: 0.82 PPG
Henrik: 0.81 PPG
Daniel: 0.81 PPG
Kopitar: 0.79 PPG

Playoff production is really around what you'd expect for $7 million players. Kane gives 0.13 PPG more production, but he's a $10.5 million player soon. Toews gives the same offensive production and is a defensive ace as well, but he's also a $10.5 million player soon. Kopitar might get $10 million or close to it.

These days $10 million buys you a 0.9 to 1.0 PPG player in the playoffs, or a 0.8 to 0.9 PPG player who is outstanding defensively.

 

[Scurr]

Here's playoff production from 2008 onwards (after the Naslund era), taking out the best series for each player (which in Daniel's case was actually the LA series in 2010). That whole bit about the SJ series completely warping their production levels is a red herring.

Kane: 0.94 PPG
Toews: 0.82 PPG
Henrik: 0.81 PPG
Daniel: 0.81 PPG
Kopitar: 0.79 PPG

Playoff production is really around what you'd expect for $7 million players. Kane gives 0.13 PPG more production, but he's a $10.5 million player soon. Toews gives the same offensive production and is a defensive ace as well, but he's also a $10.5 million player soon. Kopitar might get $10 million or close to it.

These days $10 million buys you a 0.9 to 1.0 PPG player in the playoffs, or a 0.8 to 0.9 PPG player who is outstanding defensively.

And those guys do it with other superstar players around them. Twins could really use any capable offensive defenseman... what would they do playing with a 50+pt Norris calibre stud? The support these guys have had around them at the top and bottom of the lineup has often been poor. I'd love to see what they could still do with 3 or 4 great players around them.

 

[Verviticus]

Because it's disheartening and downright embarrassing to see these guys just stand there letting people pound the **** out of them. No one is saying they have to be fighters like Clarkson, but for ****s sake fight back when someone is taking liberties with you. When Marchand was punching Daniel in the face he should have at least tied him up and thrown him to the ice. When Wideman was crosschecking him Daniel should have hit back. Instead, he picked up Wideman's stick and gave it back to him. How utterly disgraceful is that?

it ****ing owns because it's an hilarious troll on all the Neanderthals that think pointless aggression actually matters

 

[Verviticus]

helpful note: if you don't think the daniel/wideman interaction was funny, you don't and have never deserved to cheer for the sedins or the teams they dragged forward over the years, full stop.

 

[Jyrki21]

it ****ing owns because it's an hilarious troll on all the Neanderthals that think pointless aggression actually matters

Remember that time a guy got all up in someone's face in a scrum, and like shoved the guy, and shouted profanities, and then the other guy was all like "Oh yeah, well take this!" and shoved him back, and then the first player went home crying and was too timid ever to step onto a rink again?

Yeah, neither do I.

It's like low-level violence that guerrillas practice... it's not going to, one day, win you some war because of its cumulative effect or something. There is no "gloved punch that broke the camel's back".

 

[HankNDank]

Not at all. My rebuttals just seemingly get ignored.

The sample size for that duration is quite a thing eh? Without that one 5 game series against San Jose in 2011, those Sedin numbers take a huge nose dive.

Again, what's the excuse for their lack of production against the worst ranked playoff team to make the playoffs, who were young, inexperienced, and without their top defenseman?

It isn't getting ignored so much as it is not factual. Try using more than just hyperbole when you respond, like the following post used facts to rebut your rebuttal.

Here's playoff production from 2008 onwards (after the Naslund era), taking out the best series for each player (which in Daniel's case was actually the LA series in 2010). That whole bit about the SJ series completely warping their production levels is a red herring.

Kane: 0.94 PPG
Toews: 0.82 PPG
Henrik: 0.81 PPG
Daniel: 0.81 PPG
Kopitar: 0.79 PPG

Playoff production is really around what you'd expect for $7 million players. Kane gives 0.13 PPG more production, but he's a $10.5 million player soon. Toews gives the same offensive production and is a defensive ace as well, but he's also a $10.5 million player soon. Kopitar might get $10 million or close to it.

These days $10 million buys you a 0.9 to 1.0 PPG player in the playoffs, or a 0.8 to 0.9 PPG player who is outstanding defensively.

To the above post, I got my calculations to have Henrik at a 0.84 PPG after taking out the SJ series (48 points in 57 games) so he would actually be ahead of Toews.

 

[dave babych returns]

Not at all. My rebuttals just seemingly get ignored.

The sample size for that duration is quite a thing eh? Without that one 5 game series against San Jose in 2011, those Sedin numbers take a huge nose dive.

Again, what's the excuse for their lack of production against the worst ranked playoff team to make the playoffs, who were young, inexperienced, and without their top defenseman?

Virtually no players have sufficient "sample size" in their playoffs careers to really make anything of their numbers. (About 50 for the Sedins over the period being discussed here.)

Your constant whining about the San Jose series the Sedins won for us ironically undermines your own attempts to make categorical statements about the Sedins playoff production.

Your rebuttals do not get ignored, you just don't seem to want to acknowledge the individuals pointing out how ****ing awful they are.

 

[lousy]

Except the problem with the Sedins is, they don't produce much in most series and are living off of the production of that one SJ series due to a small sample size. Goal production between the twins is not what you would expect when you pay $14M to 2 players. End of story.

And you have just been proven very wrong again. Are you ever going to change your opinion based on the overwhelming evidence provided? Or are you just going to keep beating your drum with those earplugs in?

 

[y2kcanucks]

And you have just been proven very wrong again. Are you ever going to change your opinion based on the overwhelming evidence provided? Or are you just going to keep beating your drum with those earplugs in?

Actually I haven't been proved wrong at all.

Since the 2007 playoffs, I checked the PPG averages for the following players:

Henrik: 0.84
Daniel: 0.82
Toews: 0.88
Kane: 0.97
Perry: 0.90
Getzlaf: 1.07
Thornton: 0.85
Marleau: 0.68
Datsyuk: 0.89
Zetterberg: 0.98

As expected, the Sedins rank at the bottom that group (along with Thornton and Marleau, who haven't won anything either). And that's even counting their demolishing of the Sharks series of 2011.

In addition, the goals per game is where the discrepancy gets larger:

Henrik: 0.20
Daniel: 0.31
Toews: 0.34
Kane: 0.41
Perry: 0.41
Getzlaf: 0.30
Thornton: 0.19
Marleau: 0.38
Datsyuk: 0.35
Zetterberg: 0.43

The Sedin duo averages 0.51 goals per game.

The Toews-Kane duo average 0.75 goals per game.

The Perry-Getzlaf duo average 0.71 goals per game.

The Thornton-Marleau duo average 0.57 goals per game.

The Datsyuk-Zetterberg duo average 0.78 goals per game.

The Sedins once again rank last among duos in goals scored per game, and individually both rank among the bottom of that group.

Each of these players has won at least one Stanley Cup, aside from the Thornton-Marleau duo. It's not surprising that their points per game and goals per game rank closer to the Sedins than any other duo, as neither of them have won a Cup.

Sure, an argument can be made that they have been OK at times, but they have not been good enough to the point where the team can rely on them to carry the offensive load and help them win a Cup. They rely too much on assists to beef up their points, and don't score enough goals between the two of them.

 

[doobie604]

Actually I haven't been proved wrong at all.

Since the 2007 playoffs, I checked the PPG averages for the following players:

Henrik: 0.84
Daniel: 0.82
Toews: 0.88
Kane: 0.97
Perry: 0.90
Getzlaf: 1.07
Thornton: 0.85
Marleau: 0.68
Datsyuk: 0.89
Zetterberg: 0.98

As expected, the Sedins rank at the bottom that group (along with Thornton and Marleau, who haven't won anything either). And that's even counting their demolishing of the Sharks series of 2011.

In addition, the goals per game is where the discrepancy gets larger:

Henrik: 0.20
Daniel: 0.31
Toews: 0.34
Kane: 0.41
Perry: 0.41
Getzlaf: 0.30
Thornton: 0.19
Marleau: 0.38
Datsyuk: 0.35
Zetterberg: 0.43

The Sedin duo averages 0.51 goals per game.

The Toews-Kane duo average 0.75 goals per game.

The Perry-Getzlaf duo average 0.71 goals per game.

The Thornton-Marleau duo average 0.57 goals per game.

The Datsyuk-Zetterberg duo average 0.78 goals per game.

The Sedins once again rank last among duos in goals scored per game, and individually both rank among the bottom of that group.

Each of these players has won at least one Stanley Cup, aside from the Thornton-Marleau duo. It's not surprising that their points per game and goals per game rank closer to the Sedins than any other duo, as neither of them have won a Cup.

Sure, an argument can be made that they have been OK at times, but they have not been good enough to the point where the team can rely on them to carry the offensive load and help them win a Cup. They rely too much on assists to beef up their points, and don't score enough goals between the two of them.

You have been proven wrong! This shows they produce at similar rate to other super stars. Without the supporting cast, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Perry and Getzlaf haven't won a cup. Even Kane and Towes needed the supporting cast to be recuperated after their 1st cup to get back there. Vancouver always been a 1 line team without the stud on the backend, keep on blaming the 2 players keeping up with the rest of the star players in the league. Trading the Sedins for any players in the league with the exact roster of no real 2nd line, no puck moving defensemen will yield similar result.

 

[dave babych returns]

Actually I haven't been proved wrong at all.

Since the 2007 playoffs, I checked the PPG averages for the following players:

Henrik: 0.84
Daniel: 0.82
Toews: 0.88
Kane: 0.97
Perry: 0.90
Getzlaf: 1.07
Thornton: 0.85
Marleau: 0.68
Datsyuk: 0.89
Zetterberg: 0.98

As expected, the Sedins rank at the bottom that group (along with Thornton and Marleau, who haven't won anything either). And that's even counting their demolishing of the Sharks series of 2011.

In addition, the goals per game is where the discrepancy gets larger:

Henrik: 0.20
Daniel: 0.31
Toews: 0.34
Kane: 0.41
Perry: 0.41
Getzlaf: 0.30
Thornton: 0.19
Marleau: 0.38
Datsyuk: 0.35
Zetterberg: 0.43

The Sedin duo averages 0.51 goals per game.

The Toews-Kane duo average 0.75 goals per game.

The Perry-Getzlaf duo average 0.71 goals per game.

The Thornton-Marleau duo average 0.57 goals per game.

The Datsyuk-Zetterberg duo average 0.78 goals per game.

The Sedins once again rank last among duos in goals scored per game, and individually both rank among the bottom of that group.

Each of these players has won at least one Stanley Cup, aside from the Thornton-Marleau duo. It's not surprising that their points per game and goals per game rank closer to the Sedins than any other duo, as neither of them have won a Cup.

Sure, an argument can be made that they have been OK at times, but they have not been good enough to the point where the team can rely on them to carry the offensive load and help them win a Cup. They rely too much on assists to beef up their points, and don't score enough goals between the two of them.

None of this is valid because sample size

 

[a Fool]

PPG since 2007

Keith 0.64
Doughty 0.66
Lidstrom 0.73

Edler 0.48

Supporting cast is everything. Swap one of those guys with Edler and we're talking about how the Sedins are the gold standard of playoff performance.

 

[Alexistheman]

Why are people removing series when showing PPG? Isn't the fact that it is an average amongst all games played the point of it? If you're removing the top, remove the bottom too, and then you end up at the same place....

 

[y2kcanucks]

You have been proven wrong! This shows they produce at similar rate to other super stars. Without the supporting cast, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Perry and Getzlaf haven't won a cup. Even Kane and Towes needed the supporting cast to be recuperated after their 1st cup to get back there. Vancouver always been a 1 line team without the stud on the backend, keep on blaming the 2 players keeping up with the rest of the star players in the league. Trading the Sedins for any players in the league with the exact roster of no real 2nd line, no puck moving defensemen will yield similar result.

Nope. Have not been proven wrong. The stats show the Sedins production is behind that of other top players on Cup winning teams. And when you look at goals scored, the gap is even wider.

 

[CherryToke]

PPG since 2007

Keith 0.64
Doughty 0.66
Lidstrom 0.73

Edler 0.48

Supporting cast is everything. Swap one of those guys with Edler and we're talking about how the Sedins are the gold standard of playoff performance.

it's no coincidence that teams with these type of players win cups. The Canucks have never had one of these players in their pathetic existence.

 

[Addison Rae]

ah the cherry picking goals stat for playmakers. The Canucks became the Sedins team in 08/09, go ahead compare the Sedins playoff PPG against all other teams that have made the playoffs in that spans top line, see where they rank.

 

[Addison Rae]

haha trying to take away the Sharks series is absloutely downright hilarious, hey two can play that game! eliminate the Boston series and henrik had 21 points in 18 games, what a superstar!

 

[Bo Ho*]

Why does Y2K fail to grasp that the Sedins are playmakers over goalscorers. The issue is, they've rarely had a legitimate top line sniper to compliment them (Burrows prime is the only real example). Why are you criticizing them for not scoring enough goals when they are primarily playmaking forwards? Daniel was only considered a goalscorer because someone had to put the puck in the back of the net and it sure as hell wasn't going to be Henrik.
I've never seen someone so stubborn and ignorant to objective facts. Take your heels out of the sand, jesus.

 

[Addison Rae]

Why does Y2K fail to grasp that the Sedins are playmakers over goalscorers. The issue is, they've rarely had a legitimate top line sniper to compliment them (Burrows prime is the only real example). Why are you criticizing them for not scoring enough goals when they are primarily playmaking forwards? Daniel was only considered a goalscorer because someone had to put the puck in the back of the net and it sure as hell wasn't going to be Henrik.
I've never seen someone so stubborn and ignorant to objective facts. Take your heels out of the sand, jesus.

I mean we're talking about a person who wanted to replace the Sedins with David Clarkson and either Ryane Clowe or Nathan Horton (can't exactly remember) so yeah

 

[Bo Ho*]

I mean we're talking about a person who wanted to replace the Sedins with David Clarkson and either Ryane Clowe or Nathan Horton (can't exactly remember) so yeah

Do we want PPG players (top ten in points league-wide) and great leaders or the mystery box? Mystery box!!!!

At this point, I think Y2K is just doing it for the attention. He wants to be controversial and go against the grain. There's no way he's this dumb, he's just going with the hipster mentality to not accept the common view to attract more attention; sad really.

 

[vancityluongo]

Nope. Have not been proven wrong. The stats show the Sedins production is behind that of other top players on Cup winning teams. And when you look at goals scored, the gap is even wider.

So moving on from "they don't punch people in the face" to arguing that a top-3 playmaker of the past decade doesn't score enough goals. What's next, unique points?

BTW... an extra .25 GPG between the two of them would make the Sedins the second best duo after Datsyuk-Zetterberg. That's right. .25 goals per game, or 1 goal every 4 games, between both the Sedins. You're essentially trying to argue that what amounts to 7 goals in a max 28 game playoff year is what the Sedins (both of them, not just one) are missing that separate them from greatness? And that those goals should be produced by the Sedins, and not by the rest of the lineup, or simply prevented by the goalie?

 

[y2kcanucks]

ah the cherry picking goals stat for playmakers. The Canucks became the Sedins team in 08/09, go ahead compare the Sedins playoff PPG against all other teams that have made the playoffs in that spans top line, see where they rank.

Who's cherry picking? The Sedins were the top line in 2007, but because they were terrible that year people don't want to include it lol.