Daniel & Henrik Sedin Thread - Part III (MOD Notice Post # 53)

[dave babych returns]

Nope. Have not been proven wrong. The stats show the Sedins production is behind that of other top players on Cup winning teams. And when you look at goals scored, the gap is even wider.

Honestly, if your best arguments are that the Sedins rank alongside the top playoffs scorers of the last seven years (and just behind the best of the best), and that they don't punch people, you're not going to get much disagreement on the facts.

It's your laughable conclusions most reasonable posters take issue with.

The reasonable conclusion is that the Sedins have been excellent - but incomplete - players that probably needed a marginally better supporting cast than players like Toews/Kane, Krejci, Kopitar, etc got when they won Cups. They only got one season even close to that, and likely never will again.

There's no shame in that at all, of course.. but you have to laugh at the sorts of armchair quarterbacks with the nerve to trash world class players for merely being among the best.

 

[Mizral]

There's no shame in that at all, of course.. but you have to laugh at the sorts of armchair quarterbacks with the nerve to trash world class players for merely being among the best.

This is it, these guys have been soldiers for us and some people would kick dirt in their faces.

 

[Zarpan]

Nope. Have not been proven wrong. The stats show the Sedins production is behind that of other top players on Cup winning teams. And when you look at goals scored, the gap is even wider.

It shouldn't come as a major surprise to anyone that the Sedins are more playmakers than goalscorers... If they were better goalscorers, they would be $8 to $10 million players like many of the other players you reference.

Aside from that, I went through a bunch of calculations to figure out how their playoff goal scoring compares to their expected goal scoring based on regular season goals (adjusted by playoff scoring rates). There is some underperformance there, but it ends up being worth around 1 to 1.5 wins added.

So you've basically spent a gazillion hours criticizing the Sedins for underperforming in the playoffs (compared to their regular season goal scoring) by 1 to 1.5 wins over 13 playoff series.

Maybe we potentially win one extra series since 2006 (and not the SCF since the games we lost weren't even close), but that's about it.

It's pretty conclusive that our playoff issues run far, far deeper than the Sedins' playoff performances.

As a side note, Cloutier's performance in that one series vs. Minnesota basically cost us twice as many wins as the Sedins' apparent goal scoring underperformance over 13 playoff series.

 

[y2kcanucks]

It shouldn't come as a major surprise to anyone that the Sedins are more playmakers than goalscorers... If they were better goalscorers, they would be $8 to $10 million players like many of the other players you reference.

Aside from that, I went through a bunch of calculations to figure out how their playoff goal scoring compares to their expected goal scoring based on regular season goals (adjusted by playoff scoring rates). There is some underperformance there, but it ends up being worth around 1 to 1.5 wins added.

So you've basically spent a gazillion hours criticizing the Sedins for underperforming in the playoffs (compared to their regular season goal scoring) by 1 to 1.5 wins over 13 playoff series.

Maybe we potentially win one extra series since 2006 (and not the SCF since the games we lost weren't even close), but that's about it.

It's pretty conclusive that our playoff issues run far, far deeper than the Sedins' playoff performances.

As a side note, Cloutier's performance in that one series vs. Minnesota basically cost us twice as many wins as the Sedins' apparent goal scoring underperformance over 13 playoff series.

And perhaps that's why the Sedins aren't good enough to lead the team in the playoffs. They come up with an extra couple of goals, perhaps in the 2011 SCF maybe we win the Cup.

 

[Addison Rae]

Who's cherry picking? The Sedins were the top line in 2007, but because they were terrible that year people don't want to include it lol.

The Sedins were terrible in 2007, but they were paid 3.5 million dollars. They were already vastly outperforming their contracts. Your point is the Sedins aren't worth 7 million (which is hilariously wrong) so why use years where they were getting paid as 2nd liners? Since 08/09 the Sedins are up their with the other best duos in the league in playoff points, you're really grasping at straws when you're using goals scored for two primary playmakers. Again if you want to actually make a credible argument compare the Sedins playoff PPG to all other teams top duos and see how they fair.

 

[Addison Rae]

And perhaps that's why the Sedins aren't good enough to lead the team in the playoffs. They come up with an extra couple of goals, perhaps in the 2011 SCF maybe we win the Cup.

They finished 2nd and 3rd in playoff scoring that year, are you suggesting that teams can't win with their best players being 2nd and 3rd league wide in scoring?

 

[Bo Ho*]

And perhaps that's why the Sedins aren't good enough to lead the team in the playoffs. They come up with an extra couple of goals, perhaps in the 2011 SCF maybe we win the Cup.

Ah, so it's the role they play that you take issue with.
Well, if Oreskovich could score more we would also have won a cup.

 

[mrmyheadhurts]

And maybe if Luongo didn't put up a 8.05 goals against average, .773 save percentage on the road in the Finals the Canucks would've won a Cup. Plenty of factors conspired against the team in the Cup loss, the largest of which was undoubtably injuries.

This forum has gotten pretty ridiculous over the last year and I can't say I enjoy coming here or posting much anymore, but I have to say, of all things, I do feel bad for anyone who can't appreciate what the Sedins have done for this franchise over their careers. Best players in Canucks history, and best people too. I've enjoyed watching them play immensely throughout their careers and am going to cherish these last few seasons they have left.

 

[thepuckmonster]

And maybe if Luongo didn't put up a 8.05 goals against average, .773 save percentage on the road in the Finals the Canucks would've won a Cup. Plenty of factors conspired against the team in the Cup loss, the largest of which was undoubtably injuries.

This forum has gotten pretty ridiculous over the last year and I can't say I enjoy coming here or posting much anymore, but I have to say, of all things, I do feel bad for anyone who can't appreciate what the Sedins have done for this franchise over their careers. Best players in Canucks history, and best people too. I've enjoyed watching them play immensely throughout their careers and am going to cherish these last few seasons they have left.

This is also how I feel. We've been so spoiled for the last 6 years (last year not withstanding) that our expectations have gotten a bit unrealistic. This isn't a "I've been a fan longer than you have, I remember the dark times" thing but it has been a long time since we've actually experience true mediocrity.

 

[y2kcanucks]

This forum has gotten pretty ridiculous over the last year and I can't say I enjoy coming here or posting much anymore, but I have to say, of all things, I do feel bad for anyone who can't appreciate what the Sedins have done for this franchise over their careers. Best players in Canucks history, and best people too. I've enjoyed watching them play immensely throughout their careers and am going to cherish these last few seasons they have left.

Well I'm glad you, and others enjoy watching them play. I await the day we are rid of them, and look forward to that day. But for now you all enjoy them and enjoy the team we have with them. Meanwhile I just have to be patient.

 

[Verviticus]

Well I'm glad you, and others enjoy watching them play. I await the day we are rid of them, and look forward to that day. But for now you all enjoy them and enjoy the team we have with them. Meanwhile I just have to be patient.

...why do you even bother with the team? how have you survived this long?

 

[Zarpan]

And perhaps that's why the Sedins aren't good enough to lead the team in the playoffs. They come up with an extra couple of goals, perhaps in the 2011 SCF maybe we win the Cup.

The Sedins are good 1st liners by all the information that has been presented in this thread.

As I've said before, the main problem is with your expectations. I remember that your expectations for them in the Calgary series (in terms of what ES points they should produce) was so high that I think only a couple players met that threshold during the regular season.

As for the goal scoring, you want them to be something different than they've always been, leading to unrealistic expectations as well. You want $10 million players for $6 million to $7 million.

They're more productive than Stamkos at least...

 

[The Jesus*]

This is also how I feel. We've been so spoiled for the last 6 years (last year not withstanding) that our expectations have gotten a bit unrealistic. This isn't a "I've been a fan longer than you have, I remember the dark times" thing but it has been a long time since we've actually experience true mediocrity.

We'll be lucky if mediocrity is what we achieve over the next 7 or 8 years.

 

[dwarf]

Mediocrity is what we have achieved on a regular basis. Out in the first round, is what 8 teams do every year. That is mediocrity.

Mediocrity means middle of the pack, not contending for a cup, and not rebuilding. No mans land.

 

[Alexistheman]

Well I'm glad you, and others enjoy watching them play. I await the day we are rid of them, and look forward to that day. But for now you all enjoy them and enjoy the team we have with them. Meanwhile I just have to be patient.

Do you not find them enjoyable to watch, regardless of your view of them as players?
They are easily some of the most enjoyable players to watch.

The Sedins never had a stud defenseman, maybe if you drew some parallels between that and players with the same PPG that have cups?

Hint: The only team to not win the a BONA FIDE #1 defenseman was Pittsburgh, they have two generational talents, and still had Gonchar and Letang

 

[thepuckmonster]

Do you not find them enjoyable to watch, regardless of your view of them as players?
They are easily some of the most enjoyable players to watch.

The Sedins never had a stud defenseman, maybe if you drew some parallels between that and players with the same PPG that have cups?

Hint: The only team to not win the a BONA FIDE #1 defenseman was Pittsburgh, they have two generational talents, and still had Gonchar and Letang

You could probably also say Carolina.

 

[Alexistheman]

You could probably also say Carolina.

I'm using only his timeline of 2007-Present, which conveniently benefited my statement.

 

[The Jesus*]

Mediocrity is what we have achieved on a regular basis. Out in the first round, is what 8 teams do every year. That is mediocrity.

Mediocrity means middle of the pack, not contending for a cup, and not rebuilding. No mans land.

Yeah, and that's with the Sedins, Burrows, and Hamhuis still serviceable. What about in 2-3 years when they're not really good players anymore?

We'd be lucky to be mediocre when that happens. Outside of Horvat, Im not overly optimistic any prospect we have can be a top6/4 player. Maybe McCann and Corrado.

 

[dwarf]

Yeah, and that's with the Sedins, Burrows, and Hamhuis still serviceable. What about in 2-3 years when they're not really good players anymore?

This just tells me these players are making to much money. If there was better distribution, and more serviceable players on the team, we would be contending.

In two to three years, we can look at rebuilding with some top end talent. Nothing wrong with that.

Hopefully our Gm and future Gms, look to keep the costs of players as low as possible, so we can afford to contend when we have a window of opportunity to win the cup.

 

[topched88]

Well I'm glad you, and others enjoy watching them play. I await the day we are rid of them, and look forward to that day. But for now you all enjoy them and enjoy the team we have with them. Meanwhile I just have to be patient.

Cause we will be better off without the Sedins? lol, can you imagine what this team would have been like over the last decade without those players? Your basically beating them up for not being the very best players in the world, so what if they havent won 3 cups and been lights out in the playoffs like Kane and Toews. Neither has 98% of the other players in the NHL. Its like someone could give you a car for free and you'd be pissed off that its not a Ferrari.

 

[604]

I'm using only his timeline of 2007-Present, which conveniently benefited my statement.

I'd put the "franchise defenseman" tag on Letang...he was a Norris candidate and 2nd team all-star in 2012-2013.

If you just use "modern hockey" as your timeline, you'll find that 2006 Hurricanes and the 1990 Oilers, were the only teams to do it without a guy who has been a 1st or 2nd team all-star on defense (I think).

-----------------------------------------

I just read a hockey news article that stated that the Canucks are a win-now team as the Sedins are getting older. I thought the writer (Proteau) might be bat **** crazy but then maybe we on this board are just part of group think and the team really is a team trying to win now and will trade our 1st for help. Certainly most of our trades would indicate as much (except for trading Garrison which was stupid).

 

[moog35]

Heres your captain coming to the defense of his teammate brother who gets cheap shotted by the smallest player on the other team in a playoff game. A blow out loss in the finals.

Notice how Henrik just casually glides in and how Daniel does nothing either but complain to the ref

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

Heres your captain coming to the defense of his teammate brother who gets cheap shotted by the smallest player on the other team in a playoff game. A blow out loss in the finals.

Notice how Henrik just casually glides in and how Daniel does nothing either but complain to the ref

Which team are you a fan of? You should go back to whichever forum you're from, as you're obviously not a Canucks fan.

 

[dave babych returns]

It's funny though.. I mean, is the implication that Henrik doesn't care about his brother's wellbeing or something ludicrous like that?

The correct observation is pretty clearly that they don't see these shenanigans as anything other than a moderate nuisance.

If you can't understand that, then you'd best go back to your place on Brad Marchand's wavelength.

 

[MS]

And maybe if Luongo didn't put up a 8.05 goals against average, .773 save percentage on the road in the Finals the Canucks would've won a Cup. Plenty of factors conspired against the team in the Cup loss, the largest of which was undoubtably injuries.

This forum has gotten pretty ridiculous over the last year and I can't say I enjoy coming here or posting much anymore, but I have to say, of all things, I do feel bad for anyone who can't appreciate what the Sedins have done for this franchise over their careers. Best players in Canucks history, and best people too. I've enjoyed watching them play immensely throughout their careers and am going to cherish these last few seasons they have left.

Agreed.

The fact that anyone could watch the entire careers of the best, classiest players ever to wear a Canuck uniform and hate every minute of it is just sad.