Confirmed Trade: [CAR/BUF] Jeff Skinner for 2019 2nd, 2020 3rd and 6th, and Cliff Pu Part II

[Baksfamous112]

This post is straight up nonsense.

Yes, teams who get crushed by injuries usually have hard time making the playoffs or don't. I will agree with you in so far as to say there are no locks for this reason. There are clear favorites however, and Toronto/Boston/Tampa are the class of the Atlantic, I don't think anyone right now is disputing that. I could see Buffalo & Florida making good improvement this year which should strengthen the division somewhat.

Now, the rest...

1) Tavares almost replaces JVR & Bozak's combined production by himself (only like a ~12 point difference), that doesn't factor in at all the increased production we will get from 2 of Brown/Johnsson/Kapanen who move up the lineup into now vacant spaces.
2) Bozak and JVR were not playing good, responsible hockey and were HEAVILY sheltered within our lineup
3) Our defense actually should improve by addition through subtraction (Polak is gone), health (Zaitsev had a terrible year, but got healthy and looked great at worlds) and hopefully progress of youth (Dermott namely). Beyond this, hopefully Babcock learned his lesson with Hainsey last year and uses our players more appropriately.
4) Our depth is questionable? You probably should take another look at our depth chart. We might be lacking a top 4 D to stabilize things, but we've probably got 10-12 NHL capable defenseman. And our offensive depth is well documented.
5) The Leafs didn't even actually do all that well against the Atlantic, soooo

As much as I've said Florida & Buffalo seem like candidates to improve, move up this year, I don't think either will happen enough to dislodge one of the top 3 teams. I see BUF/FLA as wildcard contenders. But sure, injuries could really sidetrack that.

What do you mean nonsense? I was responding to a guy who straight up said the Leafs were a lock for a playoff. No team is a lock. What if Tavares blow his ACL in game #1? Or multiple injuries happens? Or a few guys have a down year (including the goalie)?

The Leafs put all their eggs on Tavares’s basket while forgotting about depth. We’ll see how it goes but that might burn them down the road

 

[Sypher04]

What do you mean nonsense? I was responding to a guy who straight up said the Leafs were a lock for a playoff. No team is a lock. What if Tavares blow his ACL in game #1? Or multiple injuries happens? Or a few guys have a down year (including the goalie)?

The Leafs put all their eggs on Tavares’s basket while forgotting about depth. We’ll see how it goes but that might burn them down the road

Did you even read past the first sentence?

I explained that I agree on teams not being locks because injuries and down years are a thing and can really derail.
I called the rest of your post as it pertains to the Leafs nonsense, which it is for exactly the reasons I followed with.

It's all there in my post.

And again, you're completely wrong on depth.

 

[ottomaddox]

Here is a quantity for quality trade that everyone on HF "hates", yet it exists in the real world.

I am not going to stop making quantity for quality trade proposals.

 

[Djp]

I guess people forget that Stamkos missed most of the season...

Tampa is as much of a playoff lock as any team in the league this year.

The difference between 17/18 and the year before in tampa was about 15 points....that is within the normal scopr of team variability from one year to the next without major injuries.

Saying Stamkos being out is utter BS

they were just outside the playoffs.

15 points comes down to things like

1. shootout and OT records--this could give you about a +/- 8 pt fluctuation

2. Each team has about 8-10 close games that could have gone either way where one year they go 7-3 while the next year they go 3-7---that is a different of about 8 points from one year to the next

3. Other factors such as injuries --not even saying major injuries but you could have a flu outbreak in a team that has 3 starters missing for a 5 game stretch where if healthy you get 7 points but instead you get only 3.

4. Other oddities in the schedule luck of things such as the time you play very good team A isplaying the second of back to back games or the time you faced the top 4 teams in the league to end the year you happened to get a bunch of games with them in October when things didn't happen yet or the reverse happens where you get them when they are on a 9-1 streak.

 

[Jame]

The difference between 17/18 and the year before in tampa was about 15 points....that is within the normal scopr of team variability from one year to the next without major injuries.

I love that you just invented this statement because you feel like it's true

Saying Stamkos being out is utter BS

they were just outside the playoffs.

So you don't think 70 games of Stamkos would've netted them an additional few points.

They won 42 games WITHOUT Stamkos, and missed the playoffs by 1 point... to argue that they were NOT a playoff team two years ago as some counter to their level of play in 2018-19, is utter BS....

It also ignores the huge steps they've gained from young players (Point, Vasilevsky, etc), and the additions they've made (McDonagh, Miller, etc).

15 points comes down to things like

1. shootout and OT records--this could give you about a +/- 8 pt fluctuations

2. Each team has about 8-10 close games that could have gone either way where one year they go 7-3 while the next year they go 3-7---that is a different of about 8 points from one year to the next

3. Other factors such as injuries --not even saying major injuries but you could have a flu outbreak in a team that has 3 starters missing for a 5 game stretch where if healthy you get 7 points but instead you get only 3.

4. Other oddities in the schedule luck of things such as the time you play very good team A isplaying the second of back to back games or the time you faced the top 4 teams in the league to end the year you happened to get a bunch of games with them in October when things didn't happen yet or the reverse happens where you get them when they are on a 9-1 streak.

Lol... no.... to all of it.

 

[Djp]

Here is a quantity for quality trade that everyone on HF "hates", yet it exists in the real world.

I am not going to stop making quantity for quality trade proposals.

I disagree.....


This a is deadline deal moved up to the start of the season because the GM/coach didn't want this distraction affecting the locker room.


the debate is around the return

Some will say he should have gotten backa 1st but with the lottery and teamsuncertain where they would end up they don't want to trade a 1st at this time of year. Ones that do have lottery.playoff protections on the pick.

equivalent to a playoff 1st are 2 2nds

equivalent to a 2nd is a 3rd and a B prospect


this is not a quantity for quality trade.

a quantity for quality trade would be where its not an impending UFA to be and he is a clear top line/top pair Dman and returns a few secondary depth players.

 

[CauZuki]

No, they’re not. People forgot that Tampa missed the playoff two years ago despite having roughly the same team. Also, is Toronto really a lock? They added Tavares but sacrified a 35G scorer, a top 2 C and a top 6 W in the process. Their D is no better than last year and their depth is questionable, at best.

Last year, they stacked 100+ points because Ottawa, Buffalo, Montreal all had mediocre year with Floride having a terrible first half of the season. The Antlantic will be MUCH more conpetitive this year and I wouldn’t be surprise to see one of Tampa Bay, Boston or Toronto miss the playoff

Stamkos was injured and they added Sergachev,McDonaugh,Miller...That's quite an improvement.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

I love that you just invented this statement because you feel like it's true



So you don't think 70 games of Stamkos would've netted them an additional few points.

They won 42 games WITHOUT Stamkos, and missed the playoffs by 1 point... to argue that they were NOT a playoff team two years ago as some counter to their level of play in 2018-19, is utter BS....

It also ignores the huge steps they've gained from young players (Point, Vasilevsky, etc), and the additions they've made (McDonagh, Miller, etc).



Lol... no.... to all of it.

There’s also adding Gourde, and not having the disaster that was 16-17 Bishop

 

[Baksfamous112]

Stamkos was injured and they added Sergachev,McDonaugh,Miller...That's quite an improvement.

Bold 1: I’m aware of that
Bold 2: they also lost Drouin, and McDonaugh/Miller was acquired at the TDL when they already had clinched a spot.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Here is a quantity for quality trade that everyone on HF "hates", yet it exists in the real world.

I am not going to stop making quantity for quality trade proposals.

That this is your takeaway says more about you than the trade.

 

[ottomaddox]

That this is your takeaway says more about you than the trade.

What does it say about me? That favouring reality over fantasy is a shameful / dirty pursuit?

 

[Bolt32]

The difference between 17/18 and the year before in tampa was about 15 points....that is within the normal scopr of team variability from one year to the next without major injuries.

Saying Stamkos being out is utter BS

they were just outside the playoffs.

15 points comes down to things like

1. shootout and OT records--this could give you about a +/- 8 pt fluctuation

2. Each team has about 8-10 close games that could have gone either way where one year they go 7-3 while the next year they go 3-7---that is a different of about 8 points from one year to the next

3. Other factors such as injuries --not even saying major injuries but you could have a flu outbreak in a team that has 3 starters missing for a 5 game stretch where if healthy you get 7 points but instead you get only 3.

4. Other oddities in the schedule luck of things such as the time you play very good team A isplaying the second of back to back games or the time you faced the top 4 teams in the league to end the year you happened to get a bunch of games with them in October when things didn't happen yet or the reverse happens where you get them when they are on a 9-1 streak.

The year we missed the playoffs we were Practically the Syracuse Crunch with Kucherov and Hedman. We were decimated with injuries. Not to derail the thread or anything.

 

[ottomaddox]

I disagree.....


This a is deadline deal moved up to the start of the season because the GM/coach didn't want this distraction affecting the locker room.


the debate is around the return

Some will say he should have gotten backa 1st but with the lottery and teamsuncertain where they would end up they don't want to trade a 1st at this time of year. Ones that do have lottery.playoff protections on the pick.

equivalent to a playoff 1st are 2 2nds

equivalent to a 2nd is a 3rd and a B prospect


this is not a quantity for quality trade.

a quantity for quality trade would be where its not an impending UFA to be and he is a clear top line/top pair Dman and returns a few secondary depth players.

Well I am not going to tell you about math because that would be insulting.

This is not open to perversion or opinion. The numbers and the quality of players involved are factual.

Cliff Pu hasn't played a NHL game. The rest of the trade involves draft picks and likely long shots to make the NHL.

The quantity is certainly there...

 

[bleedgreen]

What does it say about me? That favouring reality over fantasy is a shameful / dirty pursuit?

Of course some situations are going to play out that way. Almost every “selling” of a player leads to a prospect and pick trade. So if a guy is being traded primarily due to upcoming ufa then it’s fair to offer that kind of deal. Offering it to everything else is generally a waste of time.

 

[ottomaddox]

Of course some situations are going to play out that way. Almost every “selling” of a player leads to a prospect and pick trade. So if a guy is being traded primarily due to upcoming ufa then it’s fair to offer that kind of deal. Offering it to everything else is generally a waste of time.

We don't have a "Trade in a vacuum" board, so all proposals are subject to UFA status, the salary cap, No trade / No movement clauses, etc.

 

[bleedgreen]

We don't have a "Trade in a vacuum" board, so all proposals are subject to UFA status, the salary cap, No trade / No movement clauses, etc.

Uhhhh.....ok man. You be you.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

What does it say about me? That favouring reality over fantasy is a shameful / dirty pursuit?

This trade, unlikely the seeming likely nature of your posts, isn't about you.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

"When a player forced a bad trade with his NTC, something you can't replicate in our games because we're too lazy to program NTCs into the game."

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

"When a player forced a bad trade with his NTC, something you can't replicate in our games because we're too lazy to program NTCs into the game."

If you want a relationship manager play something from Paradox Games.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

If you want a relationship manager play something from Paradox Games.

???

NTC/NMCs are a huge part of the NHL and are not in GM mode.

 

[Kranix]

Is it 2018? With all the advances in graphics, EA's players still look like dog****. They still haven't realized that numbers don't stretch and deform with the movement of the jersey fabric.
It's not even a good joke.
****EA.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

???

NTC/NMCs are a huge part of the NHL and are not in GM mode.

Dynamically changing a players value because of interpersonal relationships is more of a Paradox Games feature than an EA Sports.

 

[The don godfather]

Sabres can't be possible the highest bidder for skinner no way. Any team could have done better with this crap hole package the canes got . What kool aid are they selling the fans in Raleigh to buy this trade??

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Then why didn't they?

Carolina wouldn't have turned down more value elsewhere to trade him to Buffalo. Either his NMC put downward pressure on the return or Skinner's value wasn't as high as these threads would lead you to believe. It could be somewhere in between.

 

[bleedgreen]

Dundon said after the trade that his value wasn't what people may think it was, but of course he'd say that.