Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) -- 2018-19 We Are The Champions Edition - Pt. 2

[maacoshark]

I said of players I grew up watching the best were Gretzky and now Ovechkin.
Lemieux was never in the lineup so I never watched him. He only played 915 games spread out over 17 seasons, that averages out to 53 games a season.

I also don't think Ovechkin will come close to Gretzky in goals, MAYBE if he stays healthy he gets 800, and that is a big maybe. In my mind he will be the second greatest goal scorer of all time if he can hit 800.

I think Ovi is the greatest goalscorer. Gretzky did it in the no defence era.

 

[Sam Spade]

I think Ovi is the greatest goalscorer. Gretzky did it in the no defence era.

I can live with either ranking as I love them both. I will say I lean towards Gretzky because he didn't just win goal titles and scoring titles he would lap the field in some seasons. So "no defense" or not he was just a cut above everyone but Lemiuex, who he was indeed above.

 

[g00n]

How on earth is saying that they were lucky this year and unlucky other years the same thing as saying they didn't earn it or that I'm not enjoying the cup win?

Pretty big reach.

I don't think reading words and understanding what those words mean is reaching. If you meant something else then use words that express what you mean instead of saying you feel like luck is responsible for winning and losing. You clearly knew you were doing this because you rhetorically asked if you were being too reductionist.

Where would you rank luck among the factors that contributed to this Cup win, and the previous playoff losses?

 

[895]

I don't think reading words and understanding what those words mean is reaching. If you meant something else then use words that express what you mean instead of saying you feel like luck is responsible for winning and losing. You clearly knew you were doing this because you rhetorically asked if you were being too reductionist.

Where would you rank luck among the factors that contributed to this Cup win, and the previous playoff losses?

If you somehow inferred that from what I said, the issue is with you, not me.

I used exactly the words I meant to use.

The Caps have iced a good team for an entire decade now. The fact that this one won and others lost was just luck.I'm not even going to argue that point with you, since as I said earlier, it's been discussed by philosophers and historians for thousands of years without any progress.

Please tell me how you came to the conclusion that I don't think they earned this win or that I'm not enjoying it.

 

[Ridley Simon]

If you somehow inferred that from what I said, the issue is with you, not me.

I used exactly the words I meant to use.

The Caps have iced a good team for an entire decade now. The fact that this one won and others lost was just luck.I'm not even going to argue that point with you, since as I said earlier, it's been discussed by philosophers and historians for thousands of years without any progress.

Please tell me how you came to the conclusion that I don't think they earned this win or that I'm not enjoying it.

Wait. You moved the goalposts a little bit. You basically stated that this year was luck, previous 2 years was not. Correct?

Now you are adding a caveat that while lucky, they also earned it. (Let’s just dismiss any notion that any Caps fan isn’t enjoying this....we all are, yes? No one is saying the opposite).

Is that right?

 

[g00n]

Wait. You moved the goalposts a little bit. You basically stated that this year was luck, previous 2 years was not. Correct?

Now you are adding a caveat that while lucky, they also earned it. (Let’s just dismiss any notion that any Caps fan isn’t enjoying this....we all are, yes? No one is saying the opposite).

Is that right?

He seems to be contradicting himself quite a bit so I'm not wasting any more time.

 

[895]

Wait. You moved the goalposts a little bit. You basically stated that this year was luck, previous 2 years was not. Correct?

Now you are adding a caveat that while lucky, they also earned it. (Let’s just dismiss any notion that any Caps fan isn’t enjoying this....we all are, yes? No one is saying the opposite).

Is that right?

1) What goalposts have been moved? You can be lucky and still earn it. Not mutually exclusive at all. The Caps earned the cup by being a consistently good team for the past decade. That this one won and not 2010 or 2016 or 2017 is just luck

2) g00n literally said I'm not enjoying this cup win.

 

[RandyHolt]

If Ovi played during the Gretzky era, I have no doubt he would be in the same league of goal totals. I mean, Dennis Maruk scored over 50 for the Caps during those years.

Scored over 59 goals..... 60 Goals to be exact. And 136 points.

I have often wondered the goal count Ovi would have by not playing in the jumbo goalie + jumbo goalie pad era. Look at the scores of games in the 1980's. Games featured tons of goals, hits, penalties, missed calls with the 1 ref watching play move up ice, as two guys behind the play trip each other headed up ice .... those were the glory years.

Someone should do the number crunching and drop Gretzky into the modern ginormous goalie era, and stick a mulleted Ovi back into the 80's. Ovi may not get 92 but the great one wouldn't get 92 today. I suspect their goal scoring numbers may be closer than people think. Ovi is a goal scoring machine.

 

[Ridley Simon]

1) What goalposts have been moved? You can be lucky and still earn it. Not mutually exclusive at all. The Caps earned the cup by being a consistently good team for the past decade. That this one won and not 2010 or 2016 or 2017 is just luck

2) g00n literally said I'm not enjoying this cup win.

Yeah but no. Come on. It's a very common thought process that when someone is being told that they were "lucky" to get something (win, promotion, a mate, etc....), its a pretty forgone conclusion that they werent necessarily better than someone else at that "get", they were simply luckier.

Thats very much how *almost everyone* (or actually....everyone?) looks at that commentary. If you are saying otherwise, then you will be like the only person I know to ever make that argument. Yes, they were the BEST, but it was also just based on luck. Being the BEST is not known as being the LUCKIEST. Least, not for 99.9% of people.

So...people assume your comments re: luck mean the Caps were not the best. So of course, we all take umbrage to it.

I hope that all makes sense.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Scored over 59 goals..... 60 Goals to be exact.

I have often wondered the goal count Ovi would have by not playing in the jumbo goalie + jumbo goalie pad era. Look at the scores of games in the 1980's. Games featured tons of goals, hits, penalties, missed calls with the 1 ref watching play move up ice, as two guys behind the play trip each other headed up ice .... those were the glory years.

Someone should do the number crunching and drop Gretzky into the modern ginormous goalie era, and stick mullet Ovi back into the 80's. Ovi may not get 92 but the great one wouldn't get 92 today. I suspect their goal scoring numbers may be closer than people think. Ovi is a goal scoring machine.

Just stop. You are obviously some Ovi fanboi who cant see how slow, lazy, one dimensional, uncoachable, and product of a system he really is. Plus, what has he accomplished outside of his selfish personal records and achievements???

(HF Boards, Winter of 2018)

 

[895]

Yeah but no. Come on. It's a very common thought process that when someone is being told that they were "lucky" to get something (win, promotion, a mate, etc....), its a pretty forgone conclusion that they werent necessarily better than someone else at that "get", they were simply luckier.

Thats very much how *almost everyone* (or actually....everyone?) looks at that commentary. If you are saying otherwise, then you will be like the only person I know to ever make that argument. Yes, they were the BEST, but it was also just based on luck. Being the BEST is not known as being the LUCKIEST. Least, not for 99.9% of people.

So...people assume your comments re: luck mean the Caps were not the best. So of course, we all take umbrage to it.

I hope that all makes sense.

Except that wasn't even the discussion at all. Look back at the previous pages.

The question was not

"Why did the Caps beat all the other teams?"

it was

"Why did this Caps team win when others couldn't?"

I said this year's Caps were luckier than previous years' Caps. I didn't say we were luckier than Columbus, Pittsburgh, Tampa or Vegas.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Except that wasn't even the discussion at all. Look back at the previous pages.

The question was not

"Why did the Caps beat all the other teams?"

it was

"Why did this Caps team win when others couldn't?"

I said this year's Caps were luckier than previous years' Caps. I didn't say we were luckier than Columbus, Pittsburgh, Tampa or Vegas.

Again......Yeah, but No.

This Caps team constantly fought back from adversity. Being down, not only in games, but in Series. That repeated resilience is being dismissed off hand because LUCK? Previous years teams didnt have that same resilience (defeated body language) again because UNLUCK?

Ovechkin scores early goal in a huge gm 7 vs Tampa. He and Backstrom score a terrific G late in GM3 vs the Pens, winning it and avoiding OT. Kuznetsov scores a huge G in Pens GM5 to start 3rd period...to tie the game. Caps totally blast Tampa on the road in GM's 1&2. Caps shut out the highest scoring team in the league in 2 elimination games.

None of that was luck. None of it. And those are plays/results previous years teams simply do not make.

You are dumbing this down for the sake of it (as you stated...."reductionist") to try and make it about one thing. And that is total and complete BS, from where I sit.

 

[Raikkonen]

I thought it will be a short summer. But you guys are making a good attempt to make it long. Kudos.

 

[895]

Again......Yeah, but No.

This Caps team constantly fought back from adversity. Being down, not only in games, but in Series. That repeated resilience is being dismissed off hand because LUCK? Previous years teams didnt have that same resilience (defeated body language) again because UNLUCK?

Ovechkin scores early goal in a huge gm 7 vs Tampa. He and Backstrom score a terrific G late in GM3 vs the Pens, winning it and avoiding OT. Kuznetsov scores a huge G in Pens GM5 to start 3rd period...to tie the game. Caps totally blast Tampa on the road in GM's 1&2. Caps shut out the highest scoring team in the league in 2 elimination games.

None of that was luck. None of it. And those are plays/results previous years teams simply do not make.

You are dumbing this down for the sake of it (as you stated...."reductionist") to try and make it about one thing. And that is total and complete BS, from where I sit.

Again, I don't want to discuss that part. As I said, it's been discussed for thousands of years. We are not going to answer that question that on HFboards.

My problem is with g00n thinking that 1) I don't think the Caps earned it 2) I am not enjoying the Caps winning.

Both of those are false.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I thought it will be a short summer. But you guys are making a good attempt to make it long. Kudos.

You'd rather people sit back and say nothing when silly comments are made? That would be LUCKY for the originators of the comments, and would be seen as acceptance? Perhaps that makes sense.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Again, I don't want to discuss that part. As I said, it's been discussed for thousands of years. We are not going to answer that question that on HFboards.

My problem is with g00n thinking that 1) I don't think the Caps earned it 2) I am not enjoying the Caps winning.

Both of those are false.

Thats fine. Be prepared for most to have a problem with you stating the only difference this year vs last year + is LUCK. I have a problem with that. I think pretty much anyone arguing with you does as well.

 

[Silky mitts]

I said this year's Caps were luckier than previous years' Caps. I didn't say we were luckier than Columbus, Pittsburgh, Tampa or Vegas.

I'll say they were luckier that the Pittsburgh and Vegas in those series, I don't see how it's debatable, doesn't mean it's the only factor. I still don't understand how that Niskanen shot broke Murray's pad and I can't even comprehend getting a key postseason goal against the Pens in that manner. And the GWG for the 1st win in Stanley Cup Finals history is from Orpik? If you could bet on that before the season that would have been like 10,000:1.

 

[895]

Thats fine. Be prepared for most to have a problem with you stating the only difference this year vs last year + is LUCK. I have a problem with that. I think pretty much anyone arguing with you does as well.

I have no problem defending my opinions. Just don't pretend I said stuff that I didn't

So...people assume your comments re: luck mean the Caps were not the best. So of course, we all take umbrage to it.

Why would anyone take umbrage to a dissenting opinion? On an anonymous internet discussion board? That's pretty weak.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I have no problem defending my opinions. Just don't pretend I said stuff that I didn't



Why would anyone take umbrage to a dissenting opinion? On an anonymous internet discussion board? That's pretty weak.

What are you talking about? You said that the only reason this team won this year versus previous incarnations was LUCK. I'm quoting you exactly. And I think its total BS, as do the people arguing with you. Lets just leave that there, as that is exactly where we are.

um·brage
ˈəmbrij/
noun

1. 1.
   offense or annoyance.

It's weak to show annoyance at someone's opinion? Isnt that exactly what you just did by calling my taking umbrage "weak"?

I dont think I am understanding you at all, here. You seem to be dodging your own quotes, and then making hypocritical comments about my feelings on them.

 

[RandyHolt]

Ovi is better than Gretzky

Bring it on

 

[895]

What are you talking about? You said that the only reason this team won this year versus previous incarnations was LUCK. I'm quoting you exactly. And I think its total BS, as do the people arguing with you. Lets just leave that there, as that is exactly where we are.

um·brage
ˈəmbrij/
noun

1. 1.
   offense or annoyance.

It's weak to show annoyance at someone's opinion? Isnt that exactly what you just did by calling my taking umbrage "weak"?

I dont think I am understanding you at all, here. You seem to be dodging your own quotes, and then making hypocritical comments about my feelings on them.

I'm talking about g00n saying I didn't think they earned it and that I'm not enjoying the victory. That's what this entire conversation has been about.

To become offended or angered by something.

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/take+umbrage

Yes it's weak to take umbrage at a dissenting opinion.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Ovi is better than Gretzky

Bring it on

Oh fearless leader!!!!

 

[895]

Ovi is better than Gretzky

Bring it on

At goal scoring, 100% agreed.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I'm talking about g00n saying I didn't think they earned it and that I'm not enjoying the victory. That's what this entire conversation has been about.



take umbrage

Yes it's weak to take umbrage at a dissenting opinion.

That's all I can say. It's perfectly normal to get annoyed at someones opinion. If that bothers you...you must get bothered a lot on this particualr message board.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Ovi is better than Gretzky

Bring it on

At partying.....agreed!