Can we finally admit that the Datsyuk trade was a complete train wreck?

[ArmChairGM89]

It would be like saying the AA trade sucked because we turned around and extended Perlini for 6 years and he was trash the entire term of the contract. They are just two different things.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Is there a case to be made that Datsyuk's last extension or him deciding to stick around to cash in on two front loaded years was a trainwreck on its own?

I mean he got extended less than 3 weeks after a surprise run to the 2nd round a full year before his contract actually expired. And it wasn't like there was some risk that he'd sign with another NHL club. It was pretty well known at the time that he either extends with Detroit or goes back home, so there shouldn't have been any rush.

He ends up missing half of the next year and in that and the next two seasons the team barely makes the playoffs, never makes it out of the first round and just delays the inevitable. He also artificially inflates Justin Abdelkader's production, which leads to another 7 overpaid years. And who knows what other ill advised signings/extensions were influenced by knowing Datsyuk would be in tow for another 3 years... Ericsson? Cleary?

Looking back, it was just a bizarre sequence leading up to it. During that lockout shortened year, you had a ton of Red Wings fans: clamoring for Holland to tear it down and rebuild ASAP, comparing Franzen to Hossa and bashing him for his apparent laziness and hoping Holland uses a compliance buyout on him, dreading any sort of realistic extension for Jimmy Howard and hoping it's his last year in Detroit while throwing around a picture of him with a beach ball photoshopped in the net, continually lamenting how Holland should've done everything short of kidnapping Suter's family to get him to sign, going into fits of rage when Tatar or Nyquist got demoted or when Jan Mursak got waived, deriding Holland for his continual "just get in" mantra because they knew the team was trending down, etc. etc. Then when it's reported he might leave, a lot those same fans hoped Holland backs however many Brinks trucks Gary Greedstin requests up to Datsyuk's house to keep him around that team they thought needed to rebuild.

Had they held off until the next year, maybe Datsyuk decides to leave for Russia a little earlier than he anticipated. Holland probably wears out a couple of iPhone 6's chasing around guys like Stastny and Iginla to keep the streak alive, but the team probably ends up missing the playoffs and entering the rebuild a couple of years earlier than they did.

 

[Flowah]

Is there a case to be made that Datsyuk's last extension or him deciding to stick around to cash in on two front loaded years was a trainwreck on its own?

Had they held off until the next year, maybe Datsyuk decides to leave for Russia a little earlier than he anticipated. Holland probably wears out a couple of iPhone 6's chasing around guys like Stastny and Iginla to keep the streak alive, but the team probably ends up missing the playoffs and entering the rebuild a couple of years earlier than they did.

Rebuild should have started as SOON as Lidstrom retired. I wanted it a year or two before but at least when Lidstrom retired and we had no one even 50% the d-man he was, it should have been obvious we were on our way out.

 

[TheClap]

We can knock Nielsen for falling apart now, but I have a hard time knocking Holland for going after a center that summer and Nielsen was arguably the second best option out there behind Backes (well, third behind Stamkos, I guess). Going into that summer we already had seen Weiss bought out. Datsyuk bailed. Zetterberg was coming off a season where he hit a wall half way through and looked like he might done after that back surgery, or at least done as a viable top6 center. Larkin had still not seen any significant time at center.

We were looking at going into the next season potentially leaning on Helm and Glendening as our top centers. the Wings needed a guy they could reasonably count on to be a top6 center.

Getting a center absolutely made sense. Giving a 32 year old a 6 year $31.5 million dollar deal was beyond idiotic when everyone knew a rebuild was coming soon. It should have started right then and there.

 

[Retire91]

I guess its hard for me to separate the trade from the cap space because I don't agree that Holland should have been UFA hunting. The reason I think the trade was unnecessary is because the catalyst of the trade was opening cap space to once again get in and anything can happen. That is why I can't separate the trade from the Neilsen signing. It was never about getting Hronek, it was about getting Neilsen, and Hronek just happened to happen.

I thought for sure the Lidstrom retirement would trigger a rebuild but if that didn't do it how on earth did losing Daytsuk not trigger it. so its easy in my mind. Daytsukl retires and you finally commit to the rebuild you look up and down the roster and wow look at that there are all kinds of assets that would net you 2nds and maybe even first round picks. Heck maybe you can even trade up.

I understand having Hronek is a great thing and would never disagree with it. I just don't see the logic of another season of UFA when it was time to throw in the towel. If Cholo was their guy then shame on scouting, but if they knew he was a downgrade then there was no reason to give up the higher pick. Unless you were going to go for another bubble season which I also disagreed with.

What would have been the harm in eating Daytsuk's cap hit, trading some guys like Smtih Jurco, or even Nyquist / Tartar for that 2nd or maybe a first. That would have been the right thing to do and the results also speak to that.

It really doesn't matter value for value when you look at the trade, you have to look at why was the trade initiated to understand the true train wreck.

I totally understand that I am in the minority thinking the trade was a bad idea.

 

[Ricelund]

I definitely wouldn't call the trade a "train wreck". They got two lottery tickets and it looks like they've at least hit on one of them. Cholowski still might end up being a player.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

I guess its hard for me to separate the trade from the cap space because I don't agree that Holland should have been UFA hunting. The reason I think the trade was unnecessary is because the catalyst of the trade was opening cap space to once again get in and anything can happen. That is why I can't separate the trade from the Neilsen signing. It was never about getting Hronek, it was about getting Neilsen, and Hronek just happened to happen.

1. That trade would be a good trade if the contract wasn’t attached. The fact that it was makes it pretty impressive.

2. it was widely reported that we were a top destination for stamkos. Clearing that cap space was all about stamkos not Nielsen. And that was common knowledge at the time. the trade was most definitely not to get Nielsen. Which you imply. or out right state.

3. we needed a 2c. Using the cap space from missing stamkos to sign Nielsen was perfectly acceptable. Giving him 6 years was insane.

so among all the things that unfolded I was either ecstatic or happy about every single one of them, until I read the 6 year term on Nielsen’s contract. Then I sh*t my pants.

but I think it’s pretty outlandish to say that was a bad trade because Nielsen got a 6 year contract. Lol it had nothing to do with it.

 

[RRhoads]

I would have used the cap space gained from the Datsyuk trade to take over other teams bad contracts for draft picks or prospects. Waited way too long to start the rebuild and that's why we are where we are.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Nipping at the edges to keep the streak alive was as much the Illitch's as it was Holland.

Lidstrom retiring + missing out on Suter probably should have triggered a rebuild, but I also don't blame them for giving it a shot in 2012-13 aka year 1 without Lidstrom. The fluke 7 game round 2 exit that year probably also gave some false hope riding into 2013-14.

 

[Gniwder]

I would have used the cap space gained from the Datsyuk trade to take over other teams bad contracts for draft picks or prospects. Waited way too long to start the rebuild and that's why we are where we are.

Seems like everyone's forgetting that it was Mr. I that didn't want a rebuild.

He also may have been a factor in Abby and Helm getting overpaid, Mr I loved his players at every level, remember when he brought Modano back?

There's no way Mr I would have approved of your idea...

 

[kliq]

Seems like everyone's forgetting that it was Mr. I that didn't want a rebuild.

He also may have been a factor in Abby and Helm getting overpaid, Mr I loved his players at every level, remember when he brought Modano back?

There's no way Mr I would have approved of your idea...

You nailed it. When DD wanted to start the Tigers re-build back in 2015, Illitch fired him at the end of the season. For whatever reason so many fans put the direction 100% on Holland.
Its no coincidence that after Mr. I passed away both the Wings and Tigers began a re-build.

 

[Gniwder]

You nailed it. When DD wanted to start the Tigers re-build back in 2015, Illitch fired him at the end of the season. For whatever reason so many fans put the direction 100% on Holland.
Its no coincidence that after Mr. I passed away both the Wings and Tigers began a re-build.

Mr I provided over 3 decades of sports entertainment for the Detroit area, turned the Wings into perennial contenders and some fans are pissed because the rebuild got delayed 2 or 3 years.

The old man didn't want to go out as a loser, deal with it people.

Edit: Not meant for you Kliq, I just happened to respond to your post

 

[kliq]

Mr I provided over 3 decades of sports entertainment for the Detroit area, turned the Wings into perennial contenders and some fans are pissed because the rebuild got delayed 2 or 3 years.

The old man didn't want to go out as a loser, deal with it people.

Edit: Not meant for you Kliq, I just happened to respond to your post

I hear ya, and I agree. I think the streak really mattered to him, and considering his age at the time, I got it.

 

[Dotter]

Is there a case to be made that Datsyuk's last extension or him deciding to stick around to cash in on two front loaded years was a trainwreck on its own?

I mean he got extended less than 3 weeks after a surprise run to the 2nd round a full year before his contract actually expired. And it wasn't like there was some risk that he'd sign with another NHL club. It was pretty well known at the time that he either extends with Detroit or goes back home, so there shouldn't have been any rush.

He ends up missing half of the next year and in that and the next two seasons the team barely makes the playoffs, never makes it out of the first round and just delays the inevitable. He also artificially inflates Justin Abdelkader's production, which leads to another 7 overpaid years. And who knows what other ill advised signings/extensions were influenced by knowing Datsyuk would be in tow for another 3 years... Ericsson? Cleary?

Looking back, it was just a bizarre sequence leading up to it. During that lockout shortened year, you had a ton of Red Wings fans: clamoring for Holland to tear it down and rebuild ASAP, comparing Franzen to Hossa and bashing him for his apparent laziness and hoping Holland uses a compliance buyout on him, dreading any sort of realistic extension for Jimmy Howard and hoping it's his last year in Detroit while throwing around a picture of him with a beach ball photoshopped in the net, continually lamenting how Holland should've done everything short of kidnapping Suter's family to get him to sign, going into fits of rage when Tatar or Nyquist got demoted or when Jan Mursak got waived, deriding Holland for his continual "just get in" mantra because they knew the team was trending down, etc. etc. Then when it's reported he might leave, a lot those same fans hoped Holland backs however many Brinks trucks Gary Greedstin requests up to Datsyuk's house to keep him around that team they thought needed to rebuild.

Had they held off until the next year, maybe Datsyuk decides to leave for Russia a little earlier than he anticipated. Holland probably wears out a couple of iPhone 6's chasing around guys like Stastny and Iginla to keep the streak alive, but the team probably ends up missing the playoffs and entering the rebuild a couple of years earlier than they did.

I remember things differently. Illitchs were the reason why the streak was more important over the rebuild. They were HUGE on promoting the streak. And Mike I. personally flew his private jet to court/meet with Suter (and I believe he was turned away). Mike I. had the hardon for Suter more than anybody.

And not everybody (or a ton of fans - as you said) was clamoring for Holland to tear it all down and rebuild. It was divided.

And despite "not starting the rebuild" in 2012/13, Red Wings had a great draft picking Mantha and Bertuzzi. They also got a lot of players from that draft Jacob De La Rose, Bowey, Erne.

But the streak was more important to ownership and wanted to keep the "playoff brand" going. It was a pretty big deal to them.

 

[Dotter]

If Cholo was their guy then shame on scouting, but if they knew he was a downgrade then there was no reason to give up the higher pick. Unless you were going to go for another bubble season which I also disagreed with.

They probably thought they were about equal with Cholo being less injury prone. So they opted for teh equal player that was less injury prone. That's smart asset management.

Same thing happened in 2005 when Ken Holland picked Justin Abdelkader over Guillaume Latendresse, one was a healthy player, one was not. Abdelkader has the better NHL career and has his name on the cup. Latendresse isn't in the NHL anymore.

Hate Abby all you want, he was better than the alternative. DRWs are the winners trading for and picking Cholo and Hronek over Chychrun.

With Abby and Cholo/Hronek = 2-0 team Holland for smart drafting

 

[Chris 84]

it was a good trade. some of the decisions which followed sucked, but it was a good trade for us.

as for it being madness to trade down given that we were a bubble team at best.....what?! moved down a few spaces in rd1 and added a pick in rd2. why would this be a bad move? sure, if we had the number 1 pick, i might agree, but moving from 16 to 20 and adding a 2nd rounder? as well as dumping a massive contract? why not?

 

[TCNorthstars]

I don't agree that Holland should have been UFA hunting. .

This I generally agree with. But when a Stamkos level player is available you always try to go after him.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I would have used the cap space gained from the Datsyuk trade to take over other teams bad contracts for draft picks or prospects. Waited way too long to start the rebuild and that's why we are where we are.

Good for you.

No, we are where we are at because we struck out/hit bunt singles in the draft for about a decade and didn't hit homeruns elsewhere to cover it.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I guess its hard for me to separate the trade from the cap space because I don't agree that Holland should have been UFA hunting. The reason I think the trade was unnecessary is because the catalyst of the trade was opening cap space to once again get in and anything can happen. That is why I can't separate the trade from the Neilsen signing. It was never about getting Hronek, it was about getting Neilsen, and Hronek just happened to happen.

I thought for sure the Lidstrom retirement would trigger a rebuild but if that didn't do it how on earth did losing Daytsuk not trigger it. so its easy in my mind. Daytsukl retires and you finally commit to the rebuild you look up and down the roster and wow look at that there are all kinds of assets that would net you 2nds and maybe even first round picks. Heck maybe you can even trade up.

I understand having Hronek is a great thing and would never disagree with it. I just don't see the logic of another season of UFA when it was time to throw in the towel. If Cholo was their guy then shame on scouting, but if they knew he was a downgrade then there was no reason to give up the higher pick. Unless you were going to go for another bubble season which I also disagreed with.

What would have been the harm in eating Daytsuk's cap hit, trading some guys like Smtih Jurco, or even Nyquist / Tartar for that 2nd or maybe a first. That would have been the right thing to do and the results also speak to that.

It really doesn't matter value for value when you look at the trade, you have to look at why was the trade initiated to understand the true train wreck.

I totally understand that I am in the minority thinking the trade was a bad idea.

If you can't get over the Nielsen signing then you have to at least take it for what it could have been. Obviously nobody is happy that he fell off a cliff as a player and became useless for the money, and harping on that is beating a dead horse. But if he was instead a solid player for us that lived up to his contract, then nobody would be bitching about it.

If your GM trades for a star player who then suffers a career ending injury in his first day on the job, do you criticize the GM for making the trade?

 

[Debrincat93]

1. That trade would be a good trade if the contract wasn’t attached. The fact that it was makes it pretty impressive.

2. it was widely reported that we were a top destination for stamkos. Clearing that cap space was all about stamkos not Nielsen. And that was common knowledge at the time. the trade was most definitely not to get Nielsen. Which you imply. or out right state.

3. we needed a 2c. Using the cap space from missing stamkos to sign Nielsen was perfectly acceptable. Giving him 6 years was insane.

so among all the things that unfolded I was either ecstatic or happy about every single one of them, until I read the 6 year term on Nielsen’s contract. Then I sh*t my pants.

but I think it’s pretty outlandish to say that was a bad trade because Nielsen got a 6 year contract. Lol it had nothing to do with it.

it was never reported we were a top destination for Stamkos. Please show me something decent thats credible to justify that claim because most of that was message board and twitter chatter but he never even visited here nor did we even send reps. Furthermore im almost positive he told us to not even bother sending anyone.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

If you can't get over the Nielsen signing then you have to at least take it for what it could have been. Obviously nobody is happy that he fell off a cliff as a player and became useless for the money, and harping on that is beating a dead horse. But if he was instead a solid player for us that lived up to his contract, then nobody would be bitching about it.

If your GM trades for a star player who then suffers a career ending injury in his first day on the job, do you criticize the GM for making the trade?

He didn't really fall off a cliff though. It's mostly been the inevitable decline of a player getting older and moving to a less talented team. Nielsen cracked 50 points twice in his career and he's almost 36 years old.

His decline may be a little more extreme than anticipated, but still not surprising. Especially as the team became less and less talented. And he's still got 2 more years on his contract.

 

[TheOtherOne]

He didn't really fall off a cliff though. It's mostly been the inevitable decline of a player getting older and moving to a less talented team. Nielsen cracked 50 points twice in his career and he's almost 36 years old.

His decline may be a little more extreme than anticipated, but still not surprising. Especially as the team became less and less talented. And he's still got 2 more years on his contract.

Just saying, whoever signed Nielsen's contract thought he was paying for a solid 2nd line center whose play over the next 6 years would be worth 30 million dollars.

If that was a stupid assumption, that's one thing. But again, it's separate from the decline that actually took place after the signing.

 

[Retire91]

The fact that Neilsen was signed to 6 years is very telling. Neilsen was not a secondary thought or a consolation price. Neilsen was in Holland's plans. You can post articles all you want about this place being Stamok's likely destination, they make good click bait to pump blogger numbers even 4 years later. Stamkos was never signing here, it wasn't even likely he would leave Tampa. So just putting that on the table. Holland replaced Pavel Daytsuk with Frans Neilsen and still thought this was a cup contender.

So the primary reason for the trade is to clear cap space. Let's be clear about this. If Holland did not intend to put in a stop gap for Daytsuk's departure to try and get in and anything can happen then this trade never takes place. Holland didn't say to himself, Maybe if I trade down I can grab an extra second. What happened is Holland needed to move cap space for a stop gap. The second round pick just fell into his lap. The fact that that second was an outstanding pick is clouding the original asset mismanagement. A rebuilding team should not be trading down. There are other ways to bring in that second round pick than trading down. Injuries or no Chychurn is still putting in good NHL minutes while Cholo struggles to crack the roster. We could easily have both Chychurn and Hronek and no terrible Neilsen contract.

Just because Holland lucked out with Hronek when chasing Neilsen it doesn't change the fact that he lost his top end pick for stop gap UFA shenanigans and he could have added the second from another avenue.

I'm honestly happy most of you feel this was a great move. Heck I am a fellow fan too if you guys are happy I'm happy. I just don't agree that this was historically a great trade just because Hronek. I don't think I am going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine

 

[Winger98]

The fact that Neilsen was signed to 6 years is very telling. Neilsen was not a secondary thought or a consolation price. Neilsen was in Holland's plans. You can post articles all you want about this place being Stamok's likely destination, they make good click bait to pump blogger numbers even 4 years later. Stamkos was never signing here, it wasn't even likely he would leave Tampa. So just putting that on the table. Holland replaced Pavel Daytsuk with Frans Neilsen and still thought this was a cup contender.

So the primary reason for the trade is to clear cap space. Let's be clear about this. If Holland did not intend to put in a stop gap for Daytsuk's departure to try and get in and anything can happen then this trade never takes place. Holland didn't say to himself, Maybe if I trade down I can grab an extra second. What happened is Holland needed to move cap space for a stop gap. The second round pick just fell into his lap. The fact that that second was an outstanding pick is clouding the original asset mismanagement. A rebuilding team should not be trading down. There are other ways to bring in that second round pick than trading down. Injuries or no Chychurn is still putting in good NHL minutes while Cholo struggles to crack the roster. We could easily have both Chychurn and Hronek and no terrible Neilsen contract.

Just because Holland lucked out with Hronek when chasing Neilsen it doesn't change the fact that he lost his top end pick for stop gap UFA shenanigans and he could have added the second from another avenue.

I'm honestly happy most of you feel this was a great move. Heck I am a fellow fan too if you guys are happy I'm happy. I just don't agree that this was historically a great trade just because Hronek. I don't think I am going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine

I don't think the bolded part is true at all. Look at where this team was going into that summer. Datsyuk abandoned the wings. Zetterberg's first season back from surgery saw him hit a wall halfway through the season and made the possibility of LTIRing him at that point seem plausible. Larkin hadn't spent any significant time at center in the NHL. Our top two centers were potentially Helm and Glendening heading into the next season.

I think all of us agree that six years was too long, though I think that's just what it took to get Nielsen through the door and we needed a center. Staal wanted to go to Minny for a variety of reason and Backes was going to Boston. If Holland wanted to bring in a guy he could comfortably expect to fill a top6 spot for the next few years as things got sorted out, his options were pretty limited.

I know the pro tank crowd would have preferred seeing this team become a historical laughing stock sooner rather than later, but Holland was more trying to keep the team from totally cratering than from contending for the Cup. Hindsight tells us that Zetterberg shifting his training regimen allowed him to pull a few more productive years out at center, and that allowed Larkin to be groomed more comfortably behind him, but Holland didn't have that benefit when trying to see how this team was going to fill out the following fall.

He didn't really fall off a cliff though. It's mostly been the inevitable decline of a player getting older and moving to a less talented team. Nielsen cracked 50 points twice in his career and he's almost 36 years old.

His decline may be a little more extreme than anticipated, but still not surprising. Especially as the team became less and less talented. And he's still got 2 more years on his contract.

A little more? Guy went from seasons of 41,33, and 35 points to pacing for 11 points this year. That's falling off a cliff.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

A little more? Guy went from seasons of 41,33, and 35 points to pacing for 11 points this year. That's falling off a cliff.

Yeah I know his production has been awful this season (I railed on him constantly early on) but I thought he had missed more of the season due to injury than he actually had. Probably because he's invisible out there most nights