Can we finally admit that the Datsyuk trade was a complete train wreck?

[kliq]

Fail!

Not really, but I don't get why everyone's so high on Cholo. Soft, slow thinking players rarely amount to much. Both might improve with experience, but he's not an NHLer yet as some have proclaimed.

He'll clear waivers if he's still playing like this in 2 years. I hope he improves though, and made put on some bulk.

IMO he's a very skilled player, and I think if he was paired with a good stay at home D-man he could meet his potential. At this point though, I agree with you. If he doesnt continue to get better he will be waiver wire fodder in a few years.

 

[Pavels Dog]

And the Wings didn't just get the 2nd round picks for dead cap space. They also moved back 4 spots in the draft.

The great thing about that trade is even removing the Datsyuk contract, it’s a pretty great deal. 16 to 20 is a very small price to pay for an extra 2nd, especially if you believe our scouts were always more inclined to go for Cholo over Chychrun in the first place. In ’13 we moved from 18 to 20 for a 2nd. I’ll do these trades every time pretty much.

 

[Gniwder]

I have no idea how old you are, but if you were around during Kronwall's early years you would know he was extremely injury prone. People complained about his first big contract in Detroit due to his injury history. Chychrun is a guy who can play a lot of top three minutes and will likey have a 10+ year career as a top 3 d-man. He'll likely become less injury prone as he gains strength. What are the odds that Cholo can play a similar role? Hint: they are not good.

Cholo won't but Hronek had 27 min TOI last night and Blash dressed 7D.

 

[Retire91]

The great thing about that trade is even removing the Datsyuk contract, it’s a pretty great deal. 16 to 20 is a very small price to pay for an extra 2nd, especially if you believe our scouts were always more inclined to go for Cholo over Chychrun in the first place. In ’13 we moved from 18 to 20 for a 2nd. I’ll do these trades every time pretty much.

If you have faith in your scouts I get the appeal but honestly I think its just blind luck. I still don't like the risk. Its obvious the wings thought that Mantha would still be on the board so they made the move. San Jose probably told them who they are after as part of the deal but Columbus took a winger at 19. That's a pretty close call that Mantha could have been gone at 19. I am so glad they got both Mantha and Bertuzzi but there was an element of risk to making that happen. As a rebuilding team and at the time without any elite assets in the pipeline I am not comfortable gambling BPA for a second round roll of the dice even though historically its working out.

On one side its a stoke of genius because it worked out, on another its gambling with your top asset. I am glad its working out except in 2011 which was a complete wiff.

Pull second rounders from other trades like trading away your vets that you don't need because your cup window has closed or prospects you see are not playing out and someone is willing to try reclamation. Easy peasy you don't need to monkey with your top pick.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

If you have faith in your scouts I get the appeal but honestly I think its just blind luck. I still don't like the risk. Its obvious the wings thought that Mantha would still be on the board so they made the move. San Jose probably told them who they are after as part of the deal but Columbus took a winger at 19. That's a pretty close call that Mantha could have been gone at 19. I am so glad they got both Mantha and Bertuzzi but there was an element of risk to making that happen. As a rebuilding team and at the time without any elite assets in the pipeline I am not comfortable gambling BPA for a second round roll of the dice even though historically its working out.

On one side its a stoke of genius because it worked out, on another its gambling with your top asset. I am glad its working out except in 2011 which was a complete wiff.

Pull second rounders from other trades like trading away your vets that you don't need because your cup window has closed or prospects you see are not playing out and someone is willing to try reclamation. Easy peasy you don't need to monkey with your top pick.

What risk? The Wings top pick wasn't Chychrun and they clearly lumped Fabbro and Cholo in the same category. Just because they didn't take your BPA doesn't mean that they didn't take theirs.

Either way, you have almost as good a chance at an elite asset at 20 compared to 16. It's not like they traded 3 to 7 or something like that. The draft, outside of the exceptions at the top of it, is all blind luck. You draft by profile of what a guy has done and hope you can project what he will do.

I mean, in 2011 keeping the top pick and taking the guy on the board at that slot... would give us Grand Rapids winger Matt Puempel. You take your shot and can't be scared that it might not work out.

 

[ThankGord]

Arizona 16th pick - Arizona picked Jakob Chychrun who is playing his 4th season in the NHL and is third on the team in ice time behind Alex Goligoski and Oliver Ekman-Larrson 9th on the team in scoring and looking like a 21 year old serviceable top pairing D. Aside from durability questions overall looking like a solid pick.

Redwings 53rd pick - Filip Hronek developing into a fan favorite minute muncher possibly washing out the loss of the opportunity to draft Chychrun

Wait let me try:

Red Wings 53rd pick - Filip Hronek is playing in his 2nd season and is first on the team in ice time and fourth on the team in scoring looking like a 22 year old serviceable top pairing D without the durability questions surrounding Chychrun.

 

[Henkka]

Last 2 seasons:

Hronek, 107 games, 14+39 = 53 points (0.50 points/game), 22:08 avg TOI
Chychrun, 116 games, 17+29 = 42 points (0.40 points/game) 21:26 avg TOI


Chychrun has been just what reported (by Wings scouts and other scouts), most mature defenceman as 18-year old (at 2016 draft time) and then not much room for extra development, more than 2nd pair potential.

Hronek has already overlapped him at development.

 

[Retire91]

Again, completely ignoring the point that the trade wasn't necessary to draft Hronek. And we could be talking about Chychrun and Hronek in our top pairing right now. But thank you.

 

[ThankGord]

Again, completely ignoring the point that the trade wasn't necessary to draft Hronek. And we could be talking about Chychrun and Hronek in our top pairing right now. But thank you.

Just saying you're being a bit disingenuous in the OP and trying to force your narrative by making Chychrun sound great and calling Hronek just a "fan favorite."

Would take Chychrun over Cholowski for sure.

 

[Retire91]

Just saying you're being a bit disingenuous in the OP and trying to force your narrative by making Chychrun sound great and calling Hronek just a "fan favorite."

Would take Chychrun over Cholowski for sure.

Really I didn't think I gave Hronek an unfavorable look, I love Hronek, maybe it was my assumption that everyone does if I undersold him. If we have to do this trade to end up with Hronek then for sure we need it. I just don't think it was necessary and the trade ended up as more of a downgrade than people realize because of the Hronek blinders. Also not a fan of the trading down aspects but I can't argue that it has worked out but worked out of luck. There are easier ways to get second rounders than moving down. Heck Nashville got a second rounder for Legwand

 

[ThankGord]

Really I didn't think I gave Hronek an unfavorable look, I love Hronek, maybe it was my assumption that everyone does if I undersold him. If we have to do this trade to end up with Hronek then for sure we need it. I just don't think it was necessary and the trade ended up as more of a downgrade than people realize because of the Hronek blinders. Also not a fan of the trading down aspects but I can't argue that it has worked out but worked out of luck. There are easier ways to get second rounders than moving down. Heck Nashville got a second rounder for Legwand

Understandable. I get what you're saying, we could've skipped the trade and taken Chychrun and then still taken Hronek so Hronek doing well doesn't really affect your opinion of the trade.

 

[Henkka]

Understandable. I get what you're saying, we could've skipped the trade and taken Chychrun and then still taken Hronek so Hronek doing well doesn't really affect your opinion of the trade.

But we did took Givani Smith.

Without that extra 2nd Hronek never happens.

That extra 2nd makes the trade for us.

 

[TheClap]

Would we even be talking about this as a bad trade if
A) Holland doesn't panic sits on the extra cash, embraces the rebuild and goes all in, instead of signing Nielsen/Helm
or B) Signs Eric Staal to shorter, reasonable contract?

The trade was fine. At worst it was a pretty even swap Chychrun for Hronek, even if Cholo busts out.
What came after has nothing to do with the trade itself.

 

[newfy]

IMO he's a very skilled player, and I think if he was paired with a good stay at home D-man he could meet his potential. At this point though, I agree with you. If he doesnt continue to get better he will be waiver wire fodder in a few years.

Cholowski definitely has warts in his game but he also plays a style that would look better with a better team I think. Hes a puck mover, that skates really well and is good on the PP. If he had a better group around him to cover for his warts he would look a lot better and be productive.

At 22, its way too early to say hes a bust or anything like that.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

People are taking sucking really hard around here.

 

[Shaman464]

Cholowski definitely has warts in his game but he also plays a style that would look better with a better team I think. Hes a puck mover, that skates really well and is good on the PP. If he had a better group around him to cover for his warts he would look a lot better and be productive.

At 22, its way too early to say hes a bust or anything like that.

Nah, at 22 when you're as lackluster as Cholo is, its pretty fair to say he's trending to be a bust. On a better team he'd be a bottom pair guy. He's just not someone you want playing big minutes against the other teams best players. And unless his offense explodes, he doesn't have the offense necessary to mask his issues.

 

[Bench]

People are taking sucking really hard around here.

Meanwhile I am over here, bathing in the suck.

 

[kliq]

Cholowski definitely has warts in his game but he also plays a style that would look better with a better team I think. Hes a puck mover, that skates really well and is good on the PP. If he had a better group around him to cover for his warts he would look a lot better and be productive.

At 22, its way too early to say hes a bust or anything like that.

I agree. I know some have given up on him, but its so easy to do that with the team being in the state its in. IMO, considering he was always thought of as a project, I believe he will improve. Its no guarantee though.

There is something there if you watch him closely, I remember last year I was paying very close attention to him while at a game as it was my first time seeing him play live, and maybe it was just a very good game but I felt like there was something special there.

Nah, at 22 when you're as lackluster as Cholo is, its pretty fair to say he's trending to be a bust. On a better team he'd be a bottom pair guy. He's just not someone you want playing big minutes against the other teams best players. And unless his offense explodes, he doesn't have the offense necessary to mask his issues.

I can't say you are wrong because anything can happen, but I think you are too hard on him, and correct me if I'm wrong but you have always been pretty low on him. I think that every player is different, and when it comes to a players development, its not necessarily about age but rather physical and mental maturity, both which are areas I believe he has ways to go. The kid is talented, the question is can he continue to develop and take his game to the next level. I think one thing we can agree on is that we both hope that I am right lol. With that said, you could be bang on and only time will tell.

 

[ShelbyZ]

The money- Holland used the cap space to buy out Stephan Weiss contract (1.6 million through 20-21)

I'm surprised no else has pointed this out yet, but the Weiss buyout happened a year before the trade as a way to make room for Mike Green. Moving Datsyuk's deal had little to do with Weiss's buyout other than adding a whole lot more dead money on top of it.

The trade itself was excellent IMO. #16OA for #20OA and #53OA is a pretty standard trade up/down draft move on it's own. Then you had Datsyuk's contract -which would cost the Coyotes exactly $0 in real money spent- for Vitale's-which was reportedly uninsured and cost the Coyotes real money for a guy that was LTIRetired.

Probably ranks as one of the lowest costs to move a $7.5M cap hit.

The two picks ended up netting the Wings two of the best D prospects they had had in a long while.

As for what Holland did with the cap space, that can certainly be called a trainwreck at this point.

 

[Henkka]

As for what Holland did with the cap space, that can certainly be called a trainwreck at this point.

He did put us in a cap hell, which has given us higher draft picks.

 

[Winger98]

As for what Holland did with the cap space, that can certainly be called a trainwreck at this point.

We can knock Nielsen for falling apart now, but I have a hard time knocking Holland for going after a center that summer and Nielsen was arguably the second best option out there behind Backes (well, third behind Stamkos, I guess). Going into that summer we already had seen Weiss bought out. Datsyuk bailed. Zetterberg was coming off a season where he hit a wall half way through and looked like he might done after that back surgery, or at least done as a viable top6 center. Larkin had still not seen any significant time at center.

We were looking at going into the next season potentially leaning on Helm and Glendening as our top centers. the Wings needed a guy they could reasonably count on to be a top6 center.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Holland should have just accepted the dead cap space from Datsyuk. I dislike the mentality that went into the trade. Trying to sign Stamkos was stupid, panic signing Nielsen was even dumber. We should have been prioritizing the rebuild as much as possible. Thus I think the smartest move was to just take the player we thought was best at 16.

However if we remove, Datsyuk and the cap space from the trade entirely, 16 for 20 + 53 is a trade I'm really okay with making. I think that's just about fair value. I think it's unfair to judge those picks based on the development of Hronek, Cholowski and Chychrun- but moving back 4 spots in the middle of the first for a late second is a fine trade in my books. If you think it's fair to evaluate Cholowski, Hronek and 7 mil versus Chychrun- then I think this trade was great. Hronek is better than Chychrun-, Cholowski is worth something. The cap space totally went to waste, but it's not like we need it.

Thus while I think it's fair to point to this trade as an example of Holland's poor rebuild decision-making, I think it's not a bad trade. Certainly not a train wreck.

 

[ShelbyZ]

We can knock Nielsen for falling apart now, but I have a hard time knocking Holland for going after a center that summer and Nielsen was arguably the second best option out there behind Backes (well, third behind Stamkos, I guess). Going into that summer we already had seen Weiss bought out. Datsyuk bailed. Zetterberg was coming off a season where he hit a wall half way through and looked like he might done after that back surgery, or at least done as a viable top6 center. Larkin had still not seen any significant time at center.

We were looking at going into the next season potentially leaning on Helm and Glendening as our top centers. the Wings needed a guy they could reasonably count on to be a top6 center.

You also forgot stop gap Brad Richards barely out producing Weiss despite getting better ice time and line mates.

I meant it more in a hindsight perspective when looking at how some of the signings/extensions made after the trade either ended or have worked out so far (Nielsen, Helm, DeKeyser, Mrazek).

I agree though. I did kind of forget that the major premise behind clearing Datsyuk's cap hit was to have any hope in entering the Stamkos sweepstakes.

I had no issue with the Nielsen signing at the time, other than the term that stretched to right before his 38th birthday. Obviously he wasn't going to completely replace Datsyuk, but he was at least a more durable option at #2C which the Wings obviously needed. The loss of offense had a chance to be replaced by committee with the addition of Vanek from the UFA bargain bin, the promotion of AA and some improvement from Larkin and some of the other still somewhat young guys that seemed to have down years in 15-16. (Tatar, Nyquist and Sheahan).

 

[kliq]

Again, completely ignoring the point that the trade wasn't necessary to draft Hronek. And we could be talking about Chychrun and Hronek in our top pairing right now. But thank you.

At the end of the day the Wings had Chowolski & Smith above Hronek on their draft board and for them to acquire Hronek they had to make that trade. I guess if you want to argue that the Wings should have had Hronek higher on their board, nobody can disagree, but to be fair every team had him that low. Bottom line, because of the trade they were able to acquire him.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

Yeah, I don’t think you can call it a bad trade. I think the trade itself was amazing. This thread should be about the off-season signings, because I just don’t see how that trade can be criticized at all. At the time the trade was great AND in hindsight that trade was great. Nielsen being signed to the age of 38 wasn’t so great. But that has little to do with that trade.