Can we finally admit that the Datsyuk trade was a complete train wreck?

[Retire91]

On June 24th Holland traded Datsyuk's contract and the 16th overall pick to Arizona for their 20th overall (Rangers original pick) and their 53th overall pick. This trade freed 7.5 million in cap space from the roster.

The money- Holland used the cap space to buy out Stephan Weiss contract (1.6 million through 20-21) and sign Frans Nielsen at 5.25 million through 21-22.

Arizona 16th pick - Arizona picked Jakob Chychrun who is playing his 4th season in the NHL and is third on the team in ice time behind Alex Goligoski and Oliver Ekman-Larrson 9th on the team in scoring and looking like a 21 year old serviceable top pairing D. Aside from durability questions overall looking like a solid pick.

Redwings 20th pick - Dennis Cholowski still in development has not yet played a full season looking like he could be a salvageable 3rd pairing with a chance at second pairing low end PP QB.

Redwings 53rd pick - Filip Hronek developing into a fan favorite minute muncher possibly washing out the loss of the opportunity to draft Chychrun

The season 2016-17 - Wings fail to qualify for the playoffs

My personal conjecture. It was obvious at this point the wings were barely a bubble team and had no firepower to do anything even if they got into the playoffs. If Lidstrom retiring did not kick off the rebuild, how on earth was Datsyuk's retirement not the trigger? Trading down in a draft when you are rebuilding and then clearing cap space to sign mediocrity and buy out the mediocrity you are replacing with the mediocrity is pure insanity and an underscore in how inept Holland was at the end of his run in Detroit.

First of all a team that clearly needed to rebuild should not be prioritizing cap space
Second trading down in the draft did exactly what was feared lost us our opportunity at choosing the better player on paper, and the better player in reality after 4 years of results.
Third Hronek looks like a win but there is no reason they couldn't have drafted Hronek at 46th. Smith doesn't look like he is turning into anything special
Fourth how were we not kicking off the rebuild after Datsyuk retired? This trade did not even buy Holland another season to add to the streak and left us with another negative value contract through 20-22.

At the end of the day its looking like we can easily declare the Coyotes are clear winners, Chychrun would be our number 1 D. Instead we have Hronek who we could have had anyway, Cholowski who has major question marks, and Neilsen who many people are crying for a buyout which would be a buyout for the replacement of the previous buyout.

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[Marky9er]

Isn't Chychrun hurt, like all of the time? Couldn't we have taken Fabbro? I wanted to draft him and not Chychrun.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

I'd really have to disagree with this take. Holland was able to dump a 7.5M contract while being able to get normal value in a draft pick trade down at the draft. This trade was, and still is a win in my opinion. We've seen the cost to move contracts as large as Datsyuk's typically being a 1st or 2nd round picks and Holland was able to get "fair value" for it. You're right that Chychrun is playing pretty big minutes, but Hronek is playing almost just as many (Side bar, but TOI is not a great way to evaluate a defenceman). I think both Chychrun and Hronek end up as #2/3 dmen so there's not much separating them in value. When you add in Cholowski who likely ends up in a 3rd pairing role it means that we acquired an extra 3rd pairing defenceman and were able to move a large contract just for dropping 4 spots.

The fact that Holland used the cap space to overpay for vets doesn't alter the trade itself. We knew that offseason was poor almost the minute it happened and if you want to argue that the 2016 offseason as a whole sucked I would agree. It's also not a guarantee that we would have been able to draft Hronek without the trade as we selected Smith at #46 and wouldn't have picked again until #107. Judging the trade on what came afterwards doesn't make sense; the trade was one of Holland's best in the later years of his tenure as our GM.

 

[Hen Kolland]

This topic requires too much idealistic, revisionist work to come up with the alternative reality that OP is looking for.

Don’t think this is a conversation that can be had where people can even agree to the basis of what should be considered reasonable. The big sticking point will be the major assumption that Hronek is around no matter what happened previously.

The reality is this you can’t assume the team is passing on Givani Smith to pick Filip Hronek. Especially if you are basing that assumption on what we have learned and what we know today.

With that in mind, you are picking Chychrun vs Cholowski+Hronek. The money of Datsyuk doesn’t appear to be an issue. It was dead money that had no value to the team; it’s now money that is going to an active player, but a player that holds little value to the team. Granted, Nielsen isn’t preventing anything. We don’t have any super suppressed talent in GR that can’t find a home in Detroit. We don’t have any financial restrictions that Nielsen creates due to the state of the franchise.

It comes down to how you view the drafted prospects. I have Hronek>Chychrun today, so Cholowski’s potential just a benefit.

I don’t think this deal is bad, but I can understand why people who are comfortable with the massive assumptions necessary would feel otherwise.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

The trade was amazing. They freed that space to take a run at stamkos. In doing so they traded a pick for two picks of arguably equal (if not more) value.

I don’t think you can evaluate that trade by looking at who was taken. There is no guarantee we take chychrun and there is no guarantee they take our guys.

I wouldn’t trade hronek and cholo for chychrun anyway. So we won the prospect swap to begin with.

freed space to run at a superstar. The cost was actually a gain in hronek and cholo over chychrun.

What’s not to like?

 

[kliq]

Sorry, but this is a huge stretch, IMO we won this trade hands down.
I'd take Hronek over Chychrun in general, so I view it like Chowolski is an additional lottery ticket.

I dont count the Nielsen singing as "part of the trade". It was an amazing move to gain future assets, dump a huge cap hit, and set us up to take a run at Stamkos. An awful signing after Stamkos re-signed in TB doesnt change that. I hated that signing then, I hate it now.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Jakob Chychrun Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Filip Hronek Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

How?

Jakob Chychrun = Filip Hronek, basically.

Chychrun has 80 points in 234 games.
Hronek has 52 in 106.

Chychrun has a better +/- overall, but Hronek has also been a member of one of the worst constructed rosters ever this year. Take his rookie year, and it's exactly what Chychrun did.
Disregarding anything else about your post, just comparing these two guys means your assertion that Detroit lost the trade is complete ridiculousness.

Signing Nielsen, signing Helm, etc? They're not part of this trade. The fact that you want to include them shows you're not playing fair.

 

[Frk It]

Always been a fan of Chychrun and glad he’s doing well. But I saw Hronek play and then none of this mattered anymore to me.

 

[plymouthmi]

Even if you didn't like the trade I don't see how you could reasonably call it a train wreck.

It's also too early to fully evaluate and make proclamations about Chychrun/Hronek/Cholowoski, especially since they're all defensemen. For me if you're going to pencil Chychrun in as a "serviceable top pairing D" already than you can do the same for Hronek.

Not only is it a false assumption that we still would've drafted Hronek at 46 if this trade doesn't happen, I don't think you can assume we would have drafted Chychrun either. I think you'd have to redo the whole draft board which is hard to guess at.

 

[StargateSG1]

The trade was amazing. They freed that space to take a run at stamkos. In doing so they traded a pick for two picks of arguably equal (if not more) value.

I don’t think you can evaluate that trade by looking at who was taken. There is no guarantee we take chychrun and there is no guarantee they take our guys.

I wouldn’t trade hronek and cholo for chychrun anyway. So we won the prospect swap to begin with.

freed space to run at a superstar. The cost was actually a gain in hronek and cholo over chychrun.

What’s not to like?

How delusional do you have to be to believe there was EVER a chance at Stamkos?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

How delusional do you have to be to believe there was EVER a chance at Stamkos?

So sure, we should have sat on 7.5M in a dead cap space bomb. You have to turn over every stone. Even if there were a 1% chance that you could sign Stamkos, I take that over a 100% chance that Datsyuk's contract was just going to sit there.

The mistake was made by wasting that space on a far too long deal for Nielsen who downturned almost immediately after coming here. No chance or not, you have to operate as if there is one.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

How delusional do you have to be to believe there was EVER a chance at Stamkos?

If my memory serves me right, most reports indicated the likely destinations to be 1.tampa 2.toronto 3.detroit

I don’t think you had to be delusional. We were still a decent (while regressing) team. Stamkos changes that.

 

[TheOtherOne]

If you're gonna give this a fail due to the Nielsen signing you might as well call it a fail because of Franzen's health issues.

 

[SirloinUB]

I liked the trade at the time and I think it’s fair to say it worked out reasonably well for detroit. Given the context at the time I think it’s hard to find much fault.

That said, with hindsight I can see the appeal of drafting Chychrun at 16. Keep in mind we drafted smith in the second round so if we’re okay giving him up as well we could have drafted Hronek and Chychrun in theory.

Of course things may not have played out like that but a trio of Chychrun Hronek and seider would have the back end looking really solid moving forward.

overall, I’m happy with Cholowski smith and Hronek though.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Even if you didn't like the trade I don't see how you could reasonably call it a train wreck.

It's also too early to fully evaluate and make proclamations about Chychrun/Hronek/Cholowoski, especially since they're all defensemen. For me if you're going to pencil Chychrun in as a "serviceable top pairing D" already than you can do the same for Hronek.

Not only is it a false assumption that we still would've drafted Hronek at 46 if this trade doesn't happen, I don't think you can assume we would have drafted Chychrun either. I think you'd have to redo the whole draft board which is hard to guess at.

We had a second round grade on Chychrun from what I heard.

Much like Vilardi right or wrong in terms of talent evaluation we weren't taking them so it is a fairly silly hypothetical for me.

Fabbro would be interesting, doubt we have Hronek at that point. We actually did pretty well, the problem was being forced to sign Frans. Is what it is, don't really care to live in the past that much, you can do this kind of stuff with every team.

Heck the biggest mistake Yzerman ever made was passing on Seth Jones, hope he doesn't repeat something that big in Detroit. The Lightning have a few cups in my opinion if he doesn't do that. Care more about that lesson than what Holland did to unload a player that ****** them when he left town. The return wasn't that bad.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

If my memory serves me right, most reports indicated the likely destinations to be 1.tampa 2.toronto 3.detroit

I don’t think you had to be delusional. We were still a decent (while regressing) team. Stamkos changes that.

Wings were coming off a season where they were middle of the pack, seriously declining, and about to lose Pavel Datsyuk.

My memory is Buffalo and Nashville were also in the conversation. Wings were being mentioned as a possibility but for Stamkos to ever end up in Detroit it would've had to be all about the money. He wouldn't have been coming to the Wings because he thought they'd be a contender.

Hard to say if the Wings would've drafted Hronek without this deal, but I do know he's the only piece that keeps it from being a trainwreck.

 

[Shaman464]

Jakob Chychrun Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Filip Hronek Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

How?

Jakob Chychrun = Filip Hronek, basically.

Chychrun has 80 points in 234 games.
Hronek has 52 in 106.

Chychrun has a better +/- overall, but Hronek has also been a member of one of the worst constructed rosters ever this year. Take his rookie year, and it's exactly what Chychrun did.
Disregarding anything else about your post, just comparing these two guys means your assertion that Detroit lost the trade is complete ridiculousness.

Signing Nielsen, signing Helm, etc? They're not part of this trade. The fact that you want to include them shows you're not playing fair.

Chychrun currently is better defensively than Hronek. Living in Phoenix and watching every Wings game this year (yes, all of them and haven't shut one off before the final horn yet), they both are decent offensively, but Chychrun definitely is a better decision maker when it comes to the neutralize and d-zone as things stand today. Doesn't mean Hronek can't learn, just saying today.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

When factoring in the context of the situation, that trade was horrible the day it was made.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Chychrun currently is better defensively than Hronek. Living in Phoenix and watching every Wings game this year (yes, all of them and haven't shut one off before the final horn yet), they both are decent offensively, but Chychrun definitely is a better decision maker when it comes to the neutralize and d-zone as things stand today. Doesn't mean Hronek can't learn, just saying today.

Right. And Hronek is scoring at a much higher rate. 0.49 vs 0.34

 

[Oddbob]

What is so good about Chychrun? Also, from what has been mentioned by some in the know, we wouldn't have drafted Chychrun anyhow. Sounds more to me like Cholowski is who they wanted and he would have been taken a whole 4 spots sooner. 4 spots in the late teens is nothing so that is my honest guess what would have happen without the trade, plus we wouldn't have Hronek now. Again I say what is so good about Chychrun? He gets hurt a lot, and even in the lineup what does he bring other than minute munching that has so many so excited about him?

Edit- Just looked at hockeyreference and he is currently hurt yet again.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

What is so good about Chychrun? Also, from what has been mentioned by some in the know, we wouldn't have drafted Chychrun anyhow. Sounds more to me like Cholowski is who they wanted and he would have been taken a whole 4 spots sooner. 4 spots in the late teens is nothing so that is my honest guess what would have happen without the trade, plus we wouldn't have Hronek now. Again I say what is so good about Chychrun? He gets hurt a lot, and even in the lineup what does he bring other than minute munching that has so many so excited about him?

Edit- Just looked at hockeyreference and he is currently hurt yet again.

He has improved a lot as a goal scorer. I was talked out of Chychrun's offensive ability in the run into the draft by a couple of scouting buddies. I actually think even with the injuries he has developed pretty well out in the desert. Of course we don't have an OEL to help him here. But again that really doesn't matter as we weren't drafting that dude.

 

[Oddbob]

He has improved a lot as a goal scorer. I was talked out of Chychrun's offensive ability in the run into the draft by a couple of scouting buddies. I actually think even with the injuries he has developed pretty well out in the desert. Of course we don't have an OEL to help him here. But again that really doesn't matter as we weren't drafting that dude.

Yeah, I think even if we drafted him, he would be playing 3-4 more minutes a night than he should be, kind of like Hronek is now and wouldn't look so good here.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

I am one of the first people to throw Holland under the bus. In the past, I have thrown him under the bus, got in, and backed it over him a few times.

I have no problem with the Datsyuk trade or the subsequent draft picks.

I do have a problem with whiffing on Stamkos and panic signing Neilsen, but that really has nothing to do with the trade and more with Holland's predilection for kneejerk overpaid veteran signings.

 

[nhlisawesome]

Imagine a world where we don't give Howard, Abdelkader, Nielsen, Helm and Dekeyser such bad contracts. We might have never actually needed to rebuild

 

[ArmChairGM89]

Wings were coming off a season where they were middle of the pack, seriously declining, and about to lose Pavel Datsyuk.

My memory is Buffalo and Nashville were also in the conversation. Wings were being mentioned as a possibility but for Stamkos to ever end up in Detroit it would've had to be all about the money. He wouldn't have been coming to the Wings because he thought they'd be a contender.

Hard to say if the Wings would've drafted Hronek without this deal, but I do know he's the only piece that keeps it from being a trainwreck.

I remember at the time, there is a chance stamkos could come here. They had to clear cap to even have the conversation. The trade gave us the opportunity to even sniff his ass. That’s a win for me. Now I’d take hronek over chychrun AND we got cholo. So it’s still a win. Where is the disaster?