Can we finally admit that the Datsyuk trade was a complete train wreck?

[Cursed Lemon]

The trade was amazing. They freed that space to take a run at stamkos.

Literally the only big FA name the Wings managed to sign in the cap era for more than a year was Rafalski. Considering freeing up the cap space to go for Stamkos as a good move is a effectively a non sequitur with Holland.

 

[kliq]

How delusional do you have to be to believe there was EVER a chance at Stamkos?

Its easy after the fact to sit here and act like you knew exactly what was going to happen, but I remember just before he re-signed in TB, TSN had Detroit as the favorites to land him. We're not talking HSJ or Joe Schmo's blog here.

When you are a favorite to sign a player like that, you make the cap space. Then when you consider we won the trade anyways, it was a no brainier.

This is a pointless debate anyways, its not even about the trade its about Holland. Unfortunately to some praising the trade makes them feel like they are praising Holland, and god forbid they do that.

Clearing Space was good, the assets we acquired were good, Nielsen signing was awful.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

Literally the only big FA name the Wings managed to sign in the cap era for more than a year was Rafalski. Considering freeing up the cap space to go for Stamkos as a good move is a effectively a non sequitur with Holland.

So stop trying? Might as well just relocated the team.

 

[PullHard]

The bad part was using the cap space on Nielsen and a bloated Helm extension, the trade part worked out really well

I was super high on Chychrun but at the NHL level he seems like a bandaid and pretty pedestrian overall

 

[kliq]

Literally the only big FA name the Wings managed to sign in the cap era for more than a year was Rafalski. Considering freeing up the cap space to go for Stamkos as a good move is a effectively a non sequitur with Holland.

I get you’re purposely saying over a year to disqualify Hossa, but Hossa was willing to sign here long term, they just signed Franzen instead.

In that span of time, there were no "big name" free agents other then a handful (all I can think of is Suter). There were years where the UFA classes were headlined with names like Ladd, Weiss, Alfredsson, Green, Stasny etc. Ironically, we did sign 3 of those guys.

Point being, UFA's during that time period were above average players who were overpaid and rarely worked out.

So stop trying? Might as well just relocated the team.

There is no logic to these types of arguments. When you break down the UFA's during that time period people have nothing.

 

[kliq]

Chychrun currently is better defensively than Hronek. Living in Phoenix and watching every Wings game this year (yes, all of them and haven't shut one off before the final horn yet), they both are decent offensively, but Chychrun definitely is a better decision maker when it comes to the neutralize and d-zone as things stand today. Doesn't mean Hronek can't learn, just saying today.

My thoughts are with you.

 

[kliq]

If my memory serves me right, most reports indicated the likely destinations to be 1.tampa 2.toronto 3.detroit

I don’t think you had to be delusional. We were still a decent (while regressing) team. Stamkos changes that.

We were number one, I even think I have a screen shot of the TSN odds board. Here is an article of USA Today calling us favourites.

Red Wings have become a favorite in Steven Stamkos sweepstakes

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

It's still a great trade. We got rid of a contract by only moving down 4 slots and picked up an extra pick. And it was for the opportunity to make a run at Stamkos, he never hit the market, but who we used that money on after the fact is irrelevant. Chychrun could be Karlsson and Cholowski and Hronek could could both be trash bust and it would still be a good trade at the time. But even with hindsight, Hronek is about = to Chychrun and Cholowski might not pan out as we hoped, but he's still probably an NHL defenseman.

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

Hindsight is 20/20 and that take on Hronek...woof

 

[Dotter]

On June 24th Holland traded Daytsuk's contract and the 16th overall pick to Arizona for their 20th overall (Rangers original pick) and their 53th overall pick. This trade freed 7.5 million in cap space from the roster.

The money- Holland used the cap space to buy out Stephan Weiss contract (1.6 million through 20-21) and sign Frans Nielsen at 5.25 million through 21-22.

Arizona 16th pick - Arizona picked Jakob Chychrun who is playing his 4th season in the NHL and is third on the team in ice time behind Alex Goligoski and Oliver Ekman-Larrson 9th on the team in scoring and looking like a 21 year old serviceable top pairing D. Aside from durability questions overall looking like a solid pick.

Redwings 20th pick - Dennis Cholowski still in development has not yet played a full season looking like he could be a salvageable 3rd pairing with a chance at second pairing low end PP QB.

Redwings 53rd pick - Filip Hronek developing into a fan favorite minute muncher possibly washing out the loss of the opportunity to draft Chychrun

The season 2016-17 - Wings fail to qualify for the playoffs

My personal conjecture. It was obvious at this point the wings were barely a bubble team and had no firepower to do anything even if they got into the playoffs. If Lidstrom retiring did not kick off the rebuild, how on earth was Daytsuk's retirement not the trigger? Trading down in a draft when you are rebuilding and then clearing cap space to sign mediocrity and buy out the mediocrity you are replacing with the mediocrity is pure insanity and an underscore in how inept Holland was at the end of his run in Detroit.

First of all a team that clearly needed to rebuild should not be prioritizing cap space
Second trading down in the draft did exactly what was feared lost us our opportunity at choosing the better player on paper, and the better player in reality after 4 years of results.
Third Hronek looks like a win but there is no reason they couldn't have drafted Hronek at 46th. Smith doesn't look like he is turning into anything special
Fourth how were we not kicking off the rebuild after Daytsuk retired? This trade did not even buy Holland another season to add to the streak and left us with another negative value contract through 20-22.

At the end of the day its looking like we can easily declare the Coyotes are clear winners, Chychrun would be our number 1 D. Instead we have Hronek who we could have had anyway, Cholowski who has major question marks, and Neilsen who many people are crying for a buyout which would be a buyout for the replacement of the previous buyout.

Interestingly, just the other day I was revisiting this trade and came to the decisive conclusion Ken Holland won that trade. Easily.

I wouldn't trade Hronek for Chychrun, let alone Hronek + Cholo.

At the time, I thought it was a masterful trade. Some years later, I still think it was a masterful trade. Ken Holland was the clear winner.

And Cholo is still a + asset that Yzerman can trade if he so desired. Personally, I am not giving up on him.

 

[Retire91]

Great points all around. I am not saying your point of view is wrong I just didn't agree with it. I feel the impact of it can still be felt into the rebuild. I didn't ever think this team had a shot at signing stamkos I also didn't want to sign Stamkos even if he was available, I always thought he would just re-sign in Tampa for sure so I think clearing the cap space was totally unnecessary. I would rather have Chychrun than Cholo and if there intel was so good on Hronek there is no reason to think they would not have drafted Hronek with our own pick in the second round. So I see the trade as the lost opportunity to pick a better D over Cholo, we would still have Hronek and two pieces of our top 4 would be solid. We wouldn't have the god awful Neilsen contract. And we still would have missed the playoffs just the same and the Daytsuk contract would fall off the books the next season.

I really never understood the point of the trade and I feel we ended up on a whole with a worse roster and worse cap position as a result of it.

 

[Ezekial]

Yea, just go back, eat the contract, draft Chychrun, draft Hronek at 46 instead of Smith because it was so obvious and badda bing badda boom go Wings.

Think of where we would be right now!

 

[Mijatovic]

At the end of the day its looking like we can easily declare the Coyotes are clear winners, Chychrun would be our number 1 D. Instead we have Hronek who we could have had anyway, Cholowski who has major question marks, and Neilsen who many people are crying for a buyout which would be a buyout for the replacement of the previous buyout.

It was a great trade with a horrible choice at the draft.

 

[Gniwder]

Interestingly, just the other day I was revisiting this trade and came to the decisive conclusion Ken Holland won that trade. Easily.

I wouldn't trade Hronek for Chychrun, let alone Hronek + Cholo.

At the time, I thought it was a masterful trade. Some years later, I still think it was a masterful trade. Ken Holland was the clear winner.

And Cholo is still a + asset that Yzerman can trade if he so desired. Personally, I am not giving up on him.

I don't think Cholo is much of an asset, his lack of physicality and slow thought process makes him a marginal 3rd pair at best. He's still young, but he's less physical than DDK playing with a bad back.

As far as the OP, the flaw in his logic is that he's doing hindsight drafting, which is obviously easy. How awesome would that trade have looked if the team had picked Girard, DeBrincat, and Hronek instead of Cholo & Smith? That would easily have shortened the rebuild by a year.

 

[Ezekial]

Debrincat wouldn't be the player he is on the Wings. He had the benefit of playing with a 110 point elite player last season and spent a lot of time with him in the first half of this season. He's got 40 in 65 this year on a team that's scored 60 more goals than the Wings in 2 less games.

There's a lot of teams kicking themselves for missing out on Girard and Debrincat (and Hronek)

 

[kliq]

Great points all around. I am not saying your point of view is wrong I just didn't agree with it. I feel the impact of it can still be felt into the rebuild. I didn't ever think this team had a shot at signing stamkos I also didn't want to sign Stamkos even if he was available, I always thought he would just re-sign in Tampa for sure so I think clearing the cap space was totally unnecessary. I would rather have Chychrun than Cholo and if there intel was so good on Hronek there is no reason to think they would not have drafted Hronek with our own pick in the second round. So I see the trade as the lost opportunity to pick a better D over Cholo, we would still have Hronek and two pieces of our top 4 would be solid. We wouldn't have the god awful Neilsen contract. And we still would have missed the playoffs just the same and the Daytsuk contract would fall off the books the next season.

I really never understood the point of the trade and I feel we ended up on a whole with a worse roster and worse cap position as a result of it.

I see what you are saying, and if we somehow ended up with both Hronek and Chychrun and never signed Nielsen, I 100% think we are in a better position today. I wont argue with you there.
With that said, if we dont make the trade we likely end up with Chowolski & Smith, which does not leave us in a better spot re-build wise.

 

[Gniwder]

Debrincat wouldn't be the player he is on the Wings. He had the benefit of playing with a 110 point elite player last season and spent a lot of time with him in the first half of this season. He's got 40 in 65 this year on a team that's scored 60 more goals than the Wings in 2 less games.

There's a lot of teams kicking themselves for missing out on Girard and Debrincat (and Hronek)

He would still be better than most of the forwards.

My point is that hindsight drafting is easy. The OP's view included a redraft, so the logic is flawed right off the bat. We'd be contending for the Cup if we could hindsight redraft all of our picks for the last ten years.

 

[Ezekial]

He would still be better than most of the forwards.

My point is that hindsight drafting is easy. The OP's view included a redraft, so the logic is flawed right off the bat. We'd be contending for the Cup if we could hindsight redraft all of our picks for the last ten years.

Oh for sure, but he's still behind Larkin, Mantha, and even Bert at this point. I was more piggy backing on your comment than trying to dispute you. People tend to think of prospects (and all players, really) transitively but it couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Lil Bert]

I'd take Hronek over Chychrun at this point. Throw in Cholowski and thats a net positive IMO.
What Holland did with the money was a disaster but I would blame the trade. Two good things have come out of it.

 

[Lil Bert]

Watch this dudes highlight reel and say he isn't a high impact player. I think people sleep on Hronek. Criminal..

 

[Gniwder]

Watch this dudes highlight reel and say he isn't a high impact player. I think people sleep on Hronek. Criminal..

Meh, the only amazing thing on the video is that LGD used his forehand on both goals in the video.

Nobody here said Hronek isn't good, I'm a huge fan of his one timer. The question for some is who's better Chychrun or Hronek? I don;t watch any AZ games, so I'm not qualified to debate that.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Great trade. People would sh*t on Chychrun if he was on this team, and you can’t imagine an alternate reality where we draft a lower ranked player (Hronek) instead of a higher ranked (Smith) just to create the argument that a trade was bad. Getting extra picks is exactly how you successfully rebuild and find more talent, in hindsight you usually only need 2-3 picks in a draft.. if you have a 100% hit rate on them.

Imagine a world where we don't give Howard, Abdelkader, Nielsen, Helm and Dekeyser such bad contracts. We might have never actually needed to rebuild

explain. who takes their roles, what do we with the cap space, where does the talent come from?

 

[Run the Jewels]

On June 24th Holland traded Daytsuk's contract and the 16th overall pick to Arizona for their 20th overall (Rangers original pick) and their 53th overall pick. This trade freed 7.5 million in cap space from the roster.

The money- Holland used the cap space to buy out Stephan Weiss contract (1.6 million through 20-21) and sign Frans Nielsen at 5.25 million through 21-22.

Arizona 16th pick - Arizona picked Jakob Chychrun who is playing his 4th season in the NHL and is third on the team in ice time behind Alex Goligoski and Oliver Ekman-Larrson 9th on the team in scoring and looking like a 21 year old serviceable top pairing D. Aside from durability questions overall looking like a solid pick.

Redwings 20th pick - Dennis Cholowski still in development has not yet played a full season looking like he could be a salvageable 3rd pairing with a chance at second pairing low end PP QB.

Redwings 53rd pick - Filip Hronek developing into a fan favorite minute muncher possibly washing out the loss of the opportunity to draft Chychrun

The season 2016-17 - Wings fail to qualify for the playoffs

My personal conjecture. It was obvious at this point the wings were barely a bubble team and had no firepower to do anything even if they got into the playoffs. If Lidstrom retiring did not kick off the rebuild, how on earth was Daytsuk's retirement not the trigger? Trading down in a draft when you are rebuilding and then clearing cap space to sign mediocrity and buy out the mediocrity you are replacing with the mediocrity is pure insanity and an underscore in how inept Holland was at the end of his run in Detroit.

First of all a team that clearly needed to rebuild should not be prioritizing cap space
Second trading down in the draft did exactly what was feared lost us our opportunity at choosing the better player on paper, and the better player in reality after 4 years of results.
Third Hronek looks like a win but there is no reason they couldn't have drafted Hronek at 46th. Smith doesn't look like he is turning into anything special
Fourth how were we not kicking off the rebuild after Daytsuk retired? This trade did not even buy Holland another season to add to the streak and left us with another negative value contract through 20-22.

At the end of the day its looking like we can easily declare the Coyotes are clear winners, Chychrun would be our number 1 D. Instead we have Hronek who we could have had anyway, Cholowski who has major question marks, and Neilsen who many people are crying for a buyout which would be a buyout for the replacement of the previous buyout.

It's certainly a feather in Ken Holland's post-Lidstrom dunce cap. I'm not really interested in reliving all of the decisions that led to a historically bad season this year, so let me just say I am so happy Yzerman gutted that NA scouting team and gave Hakan a large say in this last draft class. The fact our previous scouting staff had Chychrun as a second rounder is perfect. It's no wonder our NA scouting team couldn't draft a solid NHL d-man.

I'm confident our new NA scouting team will perform better; it would be hard to do worse.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Yea, just go back, eat the contract, draft Chychrun, draft Hronek at 46 instead of Smith because it was so obvious and badda bing badda boom go Wings.

Think of where we would be right now!

Think of where we'd be if Hakan Andersson was given more draft picks in the first two rounds like he was given with Hronek.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

Decent trade in terms of possibilities it opened up. There was just a horrible utilization of those possibilities. If we signed Eric Stall instead of Nielsen for example and flipped him after a great season (assuming he’d have a similar one as he did with the Wild), and got a first, would it still be bad?

I don’t see the trade being bad in a vacuum, it’s what came after it that was terrible