Can we finally admit that the Datsyuk trade was a complete train wreck?

[ArmChairGM89]

it was never reported we were a top destination for Stamkos. Please show me something decent thats credible to justify that claim because most of that was message board and twitter chatter but he never even visited here nor did we even send reps. Furthermore im almost positive he told us to not even bother sending anyone.

Lol this is just the very first link in google.
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/86370068

USA Today is hardly a hockey blogger or forum. He was probly just leveraging but their were numerous reports we were a top choice. Freeing the cap space was entirely to take a run at him.

 

[Winger98]

Yeah I know his production has been awful this season (I railed on him constantly early on) but I thought he had missed more of the season due to injury than he actually had. Probably because he's invisible out there most nights

I'd say he looks awful but, you're right, the guy just isn't noticeable more often than not. Ina weird way, his +/- is pretty remarkable on this team, though. Look at guys who get similar IT and they are generally far worse than him.

 

[Retire91]

I don't think the bolded part is true at all. Look at where this team was going into that summer. Datsyuk abandoned the wings. Zetterberg's first season back from surgery saw him hit a wall halfway through the season and made the possibility of LTIRing him at that point seem plausible. Larkin hadn't spent any significant time at center in the NHL. Our top two centers were potentially Helm and Glendening heading into the next season.

I think all of us agree that six years was too long, though I think that's just what it took to get Nielsen through the door and we needed a center. Staal wanted to go to Minny for a variety of reason and Backes was going to Boston. If Holland wanted to bring in a guy he could comfortably expect to fill a top6 spot for the next few years as things got sorted out, his options were pretty limited.

I know the pro tank crowd would have preferred seeing this team become a historical laughing stock sooner rather than later, but Holland was more trying to keep the team from totally cratering than from contending for the Cup. Hindsight tells us that Zetterberg shifting his training regimen allowed him to pull a few more productive years out at center, and that allowed Larkin to be groomed more comfortably behind him, but Holland didn't have that benefit when trying to see how this team was going to fill out the following fall.

That is fair in all honesty I hope he didn't think it was a cup contender.

When all is said and done all we can do is guess what he was thinking by his actions. I think when he signed Neilsen at the very least he still thought this team could get into the playoffs. I can only assume that because the act of trading down in the first round is something you should only do when you have the assets to back up a missed BPA. All of my beliefs of course hinge on that opinion and assumption.

When you look at the 2016 draft rankings that were available before the draft Chychurn was the clear BPA over Cholo. So I see two camps on this. Either you trusted that Red Wings scouts went all in on Cholo, or Holland had his eyes on Neilsen and was going to make that happen even if it cost us a first. I tend to think the later and Holland's trade history and past moves support that. Holland still wanted a UFA while half heartedly considering the bear cupboards.

IMO the very first indication of behavior aligning with rebuilding was Feb 2017 with the Jurco and Smith trades. That means 2016 offseason was still a go for it season even though Daytsuk was retiring. If 2016 was a rebuild I feel he could have got us Hronek's second with someone like Jurco or Smith.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I'd say he looks awful but, you're right, the guy just isn't noticeable more often than not. Ina weird way, his +/- is pretty remarkable on this team, though. Look at guys who get similar IT and they are generally far worse than him.

Now that I think about it, I kind of agree on the whole invisible thing. While Nielsen hasn't done much at all offensively, I can't really remember any real glaring situations where you could blame a goal against on a Nielsen giveaway or blown assignment.

Looking at his most common 5v5 linemates, the +/- thing makes sense since he's played most with Helm, who seems to have the most remarkable +/- on the team.

In the battle of over the hill middle 6 centers who like the number 51, both guys PK about the same rate, but Filppula seems to get the call for more offensive assignments. He has almost double the PP time, and his most frequent 5v5 linemates are AA, Fabbri, Zadina, Erne and Bertuzzi. Nielsen on the other hand, gets deployed for a lot more D zone draws, doesn't get much PP time and spends 5v5 with notable offensive stalwarts Helm, Glendening, Erne, Perlini and Hirose. Filppula's 5v5 zone starts and faceoffs are pretty balanced at right around 50% each way, while Nielsen's are heavily slanted toward the D zone at around 65%.

 

[Retire91]

 

[Ezekial]

You mean we're smoking dog shit, man?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't think the bolded part is true at all. Look at where this team was going into that summer. Datsyuk abandoned the wings. Zetterberg's first season back from surgery saw him hit a wall halfway through the season and made the possibility of LTIRing him at that point seem plausible. Larkin hadn't spent any significant time at center in the NHL. Our top two centers were potentially Helm and Glendening heading into the next season.

I think all of us agree that six years was too long, though I think that's just what it took to get Nielsen through the door and we needed a center. Staal wanted to go to Minny for a variety of reason and Backes was going to Boston. If Holland wanted to bring in a guy he could comfortably expect to fill a top6 spot for the next few years as things got sorted out, his options were pretty limited.

I know the pro tank crowd would have preferred seeing this team become a historical laughing stock sooner rather than later, but Holland was more trying to keep the team from totally cratering than from contending for the Cup. Hindsight tells us that Zetterberg shifting his training regimen allowed him to pull a few more productive years out at center, and that allowed Larkin to be groomed more comfortably behind him, but Holland didn't have that benefit when trying to see how this team was going to fill out the following fall.



A little more? Guy went from seasons of 41,33, and 35 points to pacing for 11 points this year. That's falling off a cliff.

I would also point out Nielsen's contract was structured in a way with when the NMC dropped off and money wise where it could be moved when he became a third line center. He was a good skater and cerebral player that you figured wouldn't have this kind of drop off. But when you dig a little deeper than derpa derpa Holland sucks and actually try to understand some of the sliding pieces I get the signing. I still would have liked a year or two less. But he was very well thought of in hockey circles and Zetterberg openly championed/campaigned for him.

It has gone bad.

“But the reality is, even the best organizations don’t get everything right. There’s a lot of unpredictability."
-Steve Yzerman

A lot of people can go to town on the Nielsen and Weiss signings. But they made sense at the time both carried years you didn't like but both were established top 6 players down the middle for a lot of time that just never were near the same guys in Detroit for whatever reason.

These weren't the loyalty overpays. I get more of the anger on those.

 

[Konnan511]

What is this thread? I am so confused by it.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I don't feel like digging up the Nielsen thread (if it's even possible to dig up) but at the time I liked/didn't mind the signing but thought it was a year or two too long. And here we are. I'm not sitting here trying to pat myself on the back or anything, just saying it was pretty obvious from the start. But I also thought he'd age better based on his style of play instead of falling off a cliff. Maybe if the team wasn't so bad we'd be able to mask him or he'd be better, but with nothing around him his decline stands out.

Same thing with the Abdelkader contract. 4m cap hit? Sure, fine. For 7 years!?!? The f***!!!

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

The fact that Neilsen was signed to 6 years is very telling. Neilsen was not a secondary thought or a consolation price. Neilsen was in Holland's plans. You can post articles all you want about this place being Stamok's likely destination, they make good click bait to pump blogger numbers even 4 years later. Stamkos was never signing here, it wasn't even likely he would leave Tampa. So just putting that on the table. Holland replaced Pavel Daytsuk with Frans Neilsen and still thought this was a cup contender.

So the primary reason for the trade is to clear cap space. Let's be clear about this. If Holland did not intend to put in a stop gap for Daytsuk's departure to try and get in and anything can happen then this trade never takes place. Holland didn't say to himself, Maybe if I trade down I can grab an extra second. What happened is Holland needed to move cap space for a stop gap. The second round pick just fell into his lap. The fact that that second was an outstanding pick is clouding the original asset mismanagement. A rebuilding team should not be trading down. There are other ways to bring in that second round pick than trading down. Injuries or no Chychurn is still putting in good NHL minutes while Cholo struggles to crack the roster. We could easily have both Chychurn and Hronek and no terrible Neilsen contract.

Just because Holland lucked out with Hronek when chasing Neilsen it doesn't change the fact that he lost his top end pick for stop gap UFA shenanigans and he could have added the second from another avenue.

I'm honestly happy most of you feel this was a great move. Heck I am a fellow fan too if you guys are happy I'm happy. I just don't agree that this was historically a great trade just because Hronek. I don't think I am going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine

You keep saying this. And it's all hindsight. We'd have Chychrun (maybe) and Givani Smith. We're not sure how they valued Chychrun at the time, maybe they had Cholo rated higher all along, maybe they didn't, who knows who they take if they stay at 16. But we do know for a fact that had Givani Smith > Hronek, because they picked him first.

I'll take Cholowksi, Smith, Hronek and an outside shot at getting Stamkos (wound up being Nielsen Frans Nielsen), whether real or minuscule, over just Chychrun and Smith. In both foresight and hindsight.

The Nielsen contract is/was too long, but has it really moved the needle that much? We haven't made the playoffs as long as he's been here, the rebuild officially started in his 2nd year, he hasn't handicapped us from doing anything, since we weren't and didn't want to be players in FA the last 3 years and by the time we're good again he'll be gone. If they don't sign Nielsen, I'm not sure much changes. They probably just spend that money on someone else who we'd be complaining about. Whether we all agree or disagree, right or wrong, the fact of the matter is the rebuild wasn't ever going to start until that streak finally died.

 

[Retire91]

You keep saying this. And it's all hindsight. We'd have Chychrun (maybe) and Givani Smith. We're not sure how they valued Chychrun at the time, maybe they had Cholo rated higher all along, maybe they didn't, who knows who they take if they stay at 16. But we do know for a fact that had Givani Smith > Hronek, because they picked him first.

I'll take Cholowksi, Smith, Hronek and an outside shot at getting Stamkos (wound up being Nielsen Frans Nielsen), whether real or minuscule, over just Chychrun and Smith. In both foresight and hindsight.

The Nielsen contract is/was too long, but has it really moved the needle that much? We haven't made the playoffs as long as he's been here, the rebuild officially started in his 2nd year, he hasn't handicapped us from doing anything, since we weren't and didn't want to be players in FA the last 3 years and by the time we're good again he'll be gone. If they don't sign Nielsen, I'm not sure much changes. They probably just spend that money on someone else who we'd be complaining about. Whether we all agree or disagree, right or wrong, the fact of the matter is the rebuild wasn't ever going to start until that streak finally died.

I understand what you are saying Neilsen didn't end up hurting us. But trading the 16th overall pick did and you are ignoring my points.

a.) The trade is flawed in that its objective was to free cap space. A goal that was totally contrary to what the team actually needed.
b.) we didn't need to trade our 16th over all to get a second round pick to get Hronek or:
c.) we simply could have drafted Hronek with our own second round pick

If you ignore my points then yes I understand what you are saying. But why will no one consider that had Holland not been stop gap UFA hunting then we don't trade our 16 overall. We get a second from another trade like Jurco. Then we draft BPA and we are in better shape.

If you think the Red Wings would draft Cholo anyway then I also understand where you are coming from. I find it hard to believe though and I think its just a convenient story as an apology for Holland's misstep.

 

[Gniwder]

I don't understand why there is still a rebuild discussion going on. Mr I was not going to go out a loser. When did the rebuild start? That's an easy question to answer, Feb 10, 2017, the day Mr. I passed away. (RIP Mr. Ilitch, and thank you for the Cup.)

The lesson here is that if you want to run a hockey team, go buy one.

 

[Run the Jewels]

With a little better scouting and management our top 4 on defense going forward could have been:

Quinn Hughes - Mo Seider
Jakob Chychrun - Filip Hronek

That's a pretty solid top 4 and lets you focus on building out NHL quality talent in other areas. We simply missed on far too many of our quality draft picks or made poor choices to move down in the draft.

 

[lomekian]

With a little better scouting and management our top 4 on defense going forward could have been:

Quinn Hughes - Mo Seider
Jakob Chychrun - Filip Hronek

That's a pretty solid top 4 and lets you focus on building out NHL quality talent in other areas. We simply missed on far too many of our quality draft picks or made poor choices to move down in the draft.

To be fair, you can play that game with almost any team for any position. With better scouting we could have had Gaudreau, Kucherov, Kuznetsov, Panarin and a hundred other players who would transform this team...same for everyone else

 

[Run the Jewels]

To be fair, you can play that game with almost any team for any position. With better scouting we could have had Gaudreau, Kucherov, Kuznetsov, Panarin and a hundred other players who would transform this team...same for everyone else

Nah, we're not talking anything beyond the first round outside of Hronek who was a Hakan find. Hughes was right in our backyard so plenty of chances to see him and understand what a great player he was. Chychrun is the only one who is in any way questionable but he has been tied to the Datsyuk trade from day one so it doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

 

[lomekian]

Nah, we're not talking anything beyond the first round outside of Hronek who was a Hakan find. Hughes was right in our backyard so plenty of chances to see him and understand what a great player he was. Chychrun is the only one who is in any way questionable but he has been tied to the Datsyuk trade from day one so it doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

So what you are saying is to suit the point you've made, you'll discount the other 6 rounds of the draft? Or have I misunderstood what you are saying?

 

[newfy]

To be fair, you can play that game with almost any team for any position. With better scouting we could have had Gaudreau, Kucherov, Kuznetsov, Panarin and a hundred other players who would transform this team...same for everyone else

Also to be fair, still not all that sold on Hughes. I really like the way Zadina was playing before he broke his ankle. Could they regret that pick? Maybe, but its definitely not written in stone yet. Hughes plays on a great PP and gets a tonne of PP points. Hes good which is part of the reason why obviously, but lets wait and see if he can be consistently tops of the league in PP points and continue this production.

If the wings passed on Zadina given draft day hype and took Hughes, this board would be insane right now. Hughes would be looking like a pylon with no help and not producing close to what he is now. Put Zadina on the PP with Petersson in Vancouver and this board is livid the wings passed when hes putting up 30 goals already

 

[kliq]

Nah, we're not talking anything beyond the first round outside of Hronek who was a Hakan find. Hughes was right in our backyard so plenty of chances to see him and understand what a great player he was. Chychrun is the only one who is in any way questionable but he has been tied to the Datsyuk trade from day one so it doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

No, @lomekian is spot on. You can play that game with any team.

NJ fan: "With a little better scouting and management we could have had Mikko Rantanen in our top 6 instead of Pavel Zacha

Arizona fan: "With a little better scouting and management we could have had Mikko Rantanen or Mich Marner or Matthew Barzel in our top 6 instead of Dylan Strome

TB Lighting fan: "With a little better scouting and management we could have had David Pastrnak in our top 6 instead of drafting Anthony DeAngelo.
(this one could be said by over 20 teams)

I could keep going forever, I'm sure you get my point.

Look, there are definitely mistakes made in the draft and we have not drafted perfectly. But the game you are playing can literally be played by every single team. I can't give the Wings a hard time for taking Zadina, I think most people at that time would have done the same thing.

 

[Pavels Dog]

With a little better scouting and management our top 4 on defense going forward could have been:

Quinn Hughes - Mo Seider
Jakob Chychrun - Filip Hronek

That's a pretty solid top 4 and lets you focus on building out NHL quality talent in other areas. We simply missed on far too many of our quality draft picks or made poor choices to move down in the draft.

Zadina, Seider, Cholowski, Hronek isn't a significantly worse result tbh, in the long run it could not even be worse at all depending on Zadina and Cholo's development.

These aren't the picks to criticize.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Zadina, Seider, Cholowski, Hronek isn't a significantly worse result tbh, in the long run it could not even be worse at all depending on Zadina and Cholo's development.

These aren't the picks to criticize.

I've never complained about Seider or Hronek as Hakan Andersson has a very strong track record. Gabe Vilardi is starting to come on for the Kings. He's currently 0.5 PPG over a very small sample size. Our NA scouting was terrible. Yzerman obviously wasn't impressed, it's the simplest explanation for why he revamped that entire unit as soon as he was hired.

Seriously with some lottery luck we could have:

Byfield
Larkin
Vilardi
Veleno

Hughes - Seider
Chychrun - Hronek

That's how you rebuild quickly. This is going to take longer since we did so poorly with our best draft picks over the past few years. I'm glad we addressed our biggeset organizational weakness.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

I've never complained about Seider or Hronek as Hakan Andersson has a very strong track record. Gabe Vilardi is starting to come on for the Kings. He's currently 0.5 PPG over a very small sample size. Our NA scouting was terrible. Yzerman obviously wasn't impressed, it's the simplest explanation for why he revamped that entire unit as soon as he was hired.

Seriously with some lottery luck we could have:

Byfield
Larkin
Vilardi
Veleno

Hughes - Seider
Chychrun - Hronek

That's how you rebuild quickly. This is going to take longer since we did so poorly with our best draft picks over the past few years. I'm glad we addressed our biggeset organizational weakness.

That’s great and all, but I can’t criticize them for any of these picks at the time. So I’m not sure what we’re doing here.

I would have been pissed if we took Hughes over zadina.

chychrun was projected in the top 5 that year. How many teams passed on him?

valardi was and is a walking injury concern.

these are just weird things to complain about. These “misses” are extremely marginal.

 

[Gniwder]

I've never complained about Seider or Hronek as Hakan Andersson has a very strong track record. Gabe Vilardi is starting to come on for the Kings. He's currently 0.5 PPG over a very small sample size. Our NA scouting was terrible. Yzerman obviously wasn't impressed, it's the simplest explanation for why he revamped that entire unit as soon as he was hired.

Seriously with some lottery luck we could have:

Byfield
Larkin
Vilardi
Veleno

Hughes - Seider
Chychrun - Hronek

That's how you rebuild quickly. This is going to take longer since we did so poorly with our best draft picks over the past few years. I'm glad we addressed our biggeset organizational weakness.

Josi instead of McCollum and we rebuild on the fly. Hindsight drafting is 20/20 and any moron can do it, including me

I'm glad Kenny left, because I don't think Stevie could have fired the scouting staff if Kenny was still around.

 

[GettingYourMoms]

No, @lomekian is spot on. You can play that game with any team.

NJ fan: "With a little better scouting and management we could have had Mikko Rantanen in our top 6 instead of Pavel Zacha

Arizona fan: "With a little better scouting and management we could have had Mikko Rantanen or Mich Marner or Matthew Barzel in our top 6 instead of Dylan Strome

TB Lighting fan: "With a little better scouting and management we could have had David Pastrnak in our top 6 instead of drafting Anthony DeAngelo.
(this one could be said by over 20 teams)

I could keep going forever, I'm sure you get my point.

Look, there are definitely mistakes made in the draft and we have not drafted perfectly. But the game you are playing can literally be played by every single team. I can't give the Wings a hard time for taking Zadina, I think most people at that time would have done the same thing.

You are giving me nightmares. Pastrnak in Lightings lineup would be f***ing disgusting.

 

[ZDH]

Favel Daytsuk was so good - refreshing seeing someone finally spell his name right.

 

[Sentinel]

A terrible OP. Pretty much all of it is wrong.