Can we finally admit that the Datsyuk trade was a complete train wreck?

[Retire91]

I'm not opening the idea of a redraft, I am just trying a thought exercise of 'what if the trade never happened' because I truly feel that this trade was never necessary and resulted in an unnecessary downgrade in talent. I think the simple fact that the lowest value piece of the trade turned into the highest value asset shows just how lucky Holland ended up that he got something out of it.

I am not saying this specific trade broke the organization, or that Chychurn over Cholo is like some kind of magical solution to the rebuild. Simply that this trade is a pinnacle of the kind of sustained asset management philosophy that lead us to a season with under 20 wins.

• Holland shopping a one year cap hit for a season where you aren't making the playoffs anyway
• Holland trying to land that cap space to sign a marquee FA that had little odds of getting here and would arrive to a team of underpowerd plugs, grinders in your top line, and aged stars
• Landing Stamkos prolongs the era of stop gap bubble hockey with no chance at a cup
• Trading your highest pick down when you are sorely in need of blue chip prospects.

Everyone oversimplifies by pointing to Hronek and ignores the simple facts that this trade wasn't necessary to get Hronek, this trade lost us a better defenseman with the first pick, this trade added a terrible contract that we all knew was coming once Holland got cap space.

I am glad people feel it was good and or are at peace with it. I just see it in a completely different way

 

[Mlotek]

Jakob Chychrun Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Filip Hronek Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

How?

Jakob Chychrun = Filip Hronek, basically.

Chychrun has 80 points in 234 games.
Hronek has 52 in 106.

Chychrun has a better +/- overall, but Hronek has also been a member of one of the worst constructed rosters ever this year. Take his rookie year, and it's exactly what Chychrun did.
Disregarding anything else about your post, just comparing these two guys means your assertion that Detroit lost the trade is complete ridiculousness.

Signing Nielsen, signing Helm, etc? They're not part of this trade. The fact that you want to include them shows you're not playing fair.

*SMH* Using +/- to compare players.

 

[Henkka]

Datsyuk retiring was maybe the train wreck. Not the trade.

 

[ricky0034]

ironically to posts like this that really want Chychrun and create weird hypotheticals where that wouldn't involve giving up Hronek a world without the trade where the Wings have Fabbro or Stanley+Smith is probably much more likely than one where they have Chychrun+Hronek

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Datsyuk retiring was maybe the train wreck. Not the trade.

That's why as hard as I am on Holland about certain things, I don't condemn him too much for this move, even if Cholowski ultimately turns out to be a bust.

Datsyuk put Holland in a difficult position by bailing on his contract.

 

[Bondurant]

That's why as hard as I am on Holland about certain things, I don't condemn him too much for this move, even if Cholowski ultimately turns out to be a bust.

Datsyuk put Holland in a difficult position by bailing on his contract.

Agreed. There is many things to justly pile onto Holland about. This isn't one of them.

 

[kliq]

It's certainly a feather in Ken Holland's post-Lidstrom dunce cap. I'm not really interested in reliving all of the decisions that led to a historically bad season this year, so let me just say I am so happy Yzerman gutted that NA scouting team and gave Hakan a large say in this last draft class. The fact our previous scouting staff had Chychrun as a second rounder is perfect. It's no wonder our NA scouting team couldn't draft a solid NHL d-man.

I'm confident our new NA scouting team will perform better; it would be hard to do worse.

If I remember correctly, the reason why they had him so low on their draft boards was because he had major red flags in terms of being injury prone.
Idiots huh, what did they know.

Coyotes' Jakob Chychrun: Injury considered week-to-week

Jakob Chychrun Placed On Injured Reserve By Arizona Coyotes - Last Word on Hockey

Chychrun to Miss Rest of Season Because of Injury

Chychrun Suffers Knee Injury

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

AA thread: Second round picks are worthless!

Datsyuk trade thread: Trading down to get multiple picks was genius and got us this stud Hronek (in the 2nd round)!

 

[Pavels Dog]

Everyone oversimplifies by pointing to Hronek and ignores the simple facts that this trade wasn't necessary to get Hronek

No, you’re ignoring the fact that the trade WAS necessary to get Hronek.

It’s extremely simple math. You’re doing a hindsight re-draft.

And tbh, you’re likely overrating Chychrun and maybe underrating Cholo (he’s had a tough year but still has potential).

Even Smith looks promising for a bottom 6 role.

AA thread: Second round picks are worthless!

Datsyuk trade thread: Trading down to get multiple picks was genius and got us this stud Hronek (in the 2nd round)!

Getting 2nd round picks in exchange for dead cap space = awesome

Getting 2nd round picks in return for one of your better young players=not so awesome

(I do think we got an okay return on AA, but the context matters)

 

[Run the Jewels]

If I remember correctly, the reason why they had him so low on their draft boards was because he had major red flags in terms of being injury prone.
Idiots huh, what did they know.

Coyotes' Jakob Chychrun: Injury considered week-to-week

Jakob Chychrun Placed On Injured Reserve By Arizona Coyotes - Last Word on Hockey

Chychrun to Miss Rest of Season Because of Injury

Chychrun Suffers Knee Injury

I have no idea how old you are, but if you were around during Kronwall's early years you would know he was extremely injury prone. People complained about his first big contract in Detroit due to his injury history. Chychrun is a guy who can play a lot of top three minutes and will likey have a 10+ year career as a top 3 d-man. He'll likely become less injury prone as he gains strength. What are the odds that Cholo can play a similar role? Hint: they are not good.

As to your comment on idiots, idiots are as idiots do. Look at the NA scouting staff track record with the draft and let me know how that works out for you. Not a single top pairing d-man drafted, not a single goalie capable of stealing a playoff series, and only one player who have ever come close to being a point a game player. Their draft record is horrific and is likely the reason Yzerman replaced the lions share of the NA scouting team.

 

[Snuggs]

You've got to look at the situation more than just the trade. The trade wouldn't of happened if Datsyuk didn't want to retire and go home. I'm not upset about that choice he made either, team was terrible around him.

A lot of it boils down to the mistakes Ken Holland made signing and resigning players to bad contracts. Fact is Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Kronwall hid alot of that stuff for a 2-3 year stint. An the Datsyuk extension in hindsight was the domino that lead to all this. So maybe that was the worst thing vs playing out his contract.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

*SMH* Using +/- to compare players.

I don't care enough to do a deep dive and if you're looking at them offensively, Hronek is the better player. I'm saying that if you're gonna give Hronek crap for being "worse" than Chychrun, take into account just how terrible 90% of this roster is. I stated the +/- because I didn't want to drill all the way down to QoC and all that. Hronek is a better offensive D with less overall support than Chychrun. That should be indisputable. I kinda figured that the easy answer for people wanting to denigrate Hronek for this year is "-34!"

The overriding point is that if the trade were literally Hronek's second pick for Chychrun, the Wings would have come out, at worst, even in the deal. Given that they shed 7.5M in salary, gave up only 4 draft slots and got the guy they preferred over Chychrun anyway, I have no idea how someone can look at it and see it as a train wreck.

Neilsen's contract is the real trainwreck of that week. Along with about a dozen other 2016 FA signings. So, that whole period wasn't a "Ken Holland is an idiot", it was "NHL GMs as a whole are idiots".

Nielsen > Lucic, Ladd, or Eriksson.

 

[Gniwder]

AA thread: Second round picks are worthless!

Datsyuk trade thread: Trading down to get multiple picks was genius and got us this stud Hronek (in the 2nd round)!

It's just AA fans overreacting. It was a decent hockey trade.

I'm generally not a fan of trading down, especially when a player like Chychrun falls into your lap, but I'm OK with the way the end result. I'm more of the "bird in hand" type. I had more issues with picking Smith with a mid 2nd rounder. I still hate the pick, but the player is growing on me though. To me a 2nd rd pick should have more potential than 3rd liner, but you can't hate a player based on draft position. It's still better than a lot of Holland's 2nd rd picks in the past.

 

[avssuc]

Isn't Chychrun hurt, like all of the time? Couldn't we have taken Fabbro? I wanted to draft him and not Chychrun.

Chychrun was far and away the BPA when the Wings traded their pick. Maybe folks here wanted other folks at that spot, but there was a reason the Yotes made that trade, and it's because he had an NHL body and mind at 18, something no other defenders had at that spot.

Wings were coming off a season where they were middle of the pack, seriously declining, and about to lose Pavel Datsyuk.

My memory is Buffalo and Nashville were also in the conversation. Wings were being mentioned as a possibility but for Stamkos to ever end up in Detroit it would've had to be all about the money. He wouldn't have been coming to the Wings because he thought they'd be a contender.

Hard to say if the Wings would've drafted Hronek without this deal, but I do know he's the only piece that keeps it from being a trainwreck.

This is exactly how I feel. I'd go further and say someone with the Wings thought a rebuild could be done while signing guys to insane contracts, but as we all know, that didn't happen here. The Wings don't have the pieces and haven't had the cap space available (until years after the rebuild was necessary) to be loading up on futures. Outside of hoping for a miracle, that's probably the best way to build a team, and it looks like New Jersey and Ottawa are showing the league how to max that.

I think if Holland sits on the cap space to buy futures, this turns into a win, no matter how the extra pick/s turn out. A guy like Nielsen offers nothing to a team like the Wings, and at this point, any team in the NHL. I doubt he can sharpen skates or clean up around LCA, so he's of zero use, while he subtracts a roster spot and cap space. Looking back, it feels like an inside job.

 

[kliq]

I have no idea how old you are, but if you were around during Kronwall's early years you would know he was extremely injury prone. People complained about his first big contract in Detroit due to his injury history. Chychrun is a guy who can play a lot of top three minutes and will likey have a 10+ year career as a top 3 d-man. He'll likely become less injury prone as he gains strength. What are the odds that Cholo can play a similar role? Hint: they are not good.

As to your comment on idiots, idiots are as idiots do. Look at the NA scouting staff track record with the draft and let me know how that works out for you. Not a single top pairing d-man drafted, not a single goalie capable of stealing a playoff series, and only one player who have ever come close to being a point a game player. Their draft record is horrific and is likely the reason Yzerman replaced the lions share of the NA scouting team.

I'm in my mid/late 30's, so yes I do remember Kronwall's early years. With that said, one example of a D-man who began his career with injury issues (which to be fair did come back) does not mean that all will work out. Chychrun is 21 years old and has already suffered 3-4 injuries in the NHL after having an injury plagued junior career. Currently he sits at 210 pounds (according to NHL.com), so we're not talking some 170 pound kid here. What are the odds that Chychrun has an injury free 10+ year career as a top 3 d-man? Hint: not good.

For the record, I 'm not against changing up the scouting team as there is no denying that we lacked in finding top D-men, however I find when people criticize the scouts they often do it out of anger and frustration rather then statistics. Many posters on here have broken down drafts and the % of high end talents acquired in the later rounds of the drafts, and if my memory serves me correctly the Wings fell right in the middle. I want them at the top so I am happy with the change, but I'm not going put down every decision they made, especially when all indicators are that they are correct in this case.

 

[vladdy16]

I think that it's incredibly disingenuous to act like you are using hindsight to evaluate a 21 yo defensemen.

All the claims about the caliber of Cychrun are complete conjecture. It is not at all uncommon for a big, talented young defensemen to fit in well on seasoned/mature, above average teams.

This isn't video games, players don't progress linearly, and the outline of the overall talent pool is not easily predictable outside of a few years. Early success is not what's going to dictate if Chychrun has a small or big window of time for his peak.

 

[vladdy16]

I'm in my mid/late 30's, so yes I do remember Kronwall's early years. With that said, one example of a D-man who began his career with injury issues (which to be fair did come back) does not mean that all will work out. Chychrun is 21 years old and has already suffered 3-4 injuries in the NHL after having an injury plagued junior career. Currently he sits at 210 pounds (according to NHL.com), so we're not talking some 170 pound kid here. What are the odds that Chychrun has an injury free 10+ year career as a top 3 d-man? Hint: not good.

For the record, I 'm not against changing up the scouting team as there is no denying that we lacked in finding top D-men, however I find when people criticize the scouts they often do it out of anger and frustration rather then statistics. Many posters on here have broken down drafts and the % of high end talents acquired in the later rounds of the drafts, and if my memory serves me correctly the Wings fell right in the middle. I want them at the top so I am happy with the change, but I'm not going put down every decision they made, especially when all indicators are that they are correct in this case.

Those injuries seriously hampered Kronwalls development, and aged him out of relevance way sooner than should be expected typically, imo.

He had a good career, but strictly speaking I do not think he ever reached his potential.

 

[MBH]

On June 24th Holland traded Daytsuk's contract and the 16th overall pick to Arizona for their 20th overall (Rangers original pick) and their 53th overall pick. This trade freed 7.5 million in cap space from the roster.

The money- Holland used the cap space to buy out Stephan Weiss contract (1.6 million through 20-21) and sign Frans Nielsen at 5.25 million through 21-22.

Arizona 16th pick - Arizona picked Jakob Chychrun who is playing his 4th season in the NHL and is third on the team in ice time behind Alex Goligoski and Oliver Ekman-Larrson 9th on the team in scoring and looking like a 21 year old serviceable top pairing D. Aside from durability questions overall looking like a solid pick.

Redwings 20th pick - Dennis Cholowski still in development has not yet played a full season looking like he could be a salvageable 3rd pairing with a chance at second pairing low end PP QB.

Redwings 53rd pick - Filip Hronek developing into a fan favorite minute muncher possibly washing out the loss of the opportunity to draft Chychrun

The season 2016-17 - Wings fail to qualify for the playoffs

My personal conjecture. It was obvious at this point the wings were barely a bubble team and had no firepower to do anything even if they got into the playoffs. If Lidstrom retiring did not kick off the rebuild, how on earth was Daytsuk's retirement not the trigger? Trading down in a draft when you are rebuilding and then clearing cap space to sign mediocrity and buy out the mediocrity you are replacing with the mediocrity is pure insanity and an underscore in how inept Holland was at the end of his run in Detroit.

First of all a team that clearly needed to rebuild should not be prioritizing cap space
Second trading down in the draft did exactly what was feared lost us our opportunity at choosing the better player on paper, and the better player in reality after 4 years of results.
Third Hronek looks like a win but there is no reason they couldn't have drafted Hronek at 46th. Smith doesn't look like he is turning into anything special
Fourth how were we not kicking off the rebuild after Daytsuk retired? This trade did not even buy Holland another season to add to the streak and left us with another negative value contract through 20-22.

At the end of the day its looking like we can easily declare the Coyotes are clear winners, Chychrun would be our number 1 D. Instead we have Hronek who we could have had anyway, Cholowski who has major question marks, and Neilsen who many people are crying for a buyout which would be a buyout for the replacement of the previous buyout.

I didn't like the Cholowski pick on draft day.
I'm not sure it's clear Chycrun is a better pick than Hronek, even if he seems to be having a great season, and even though he's probably better defensively.

I'd say I was supportive of the trade.
But that that i wasn't a big fan of what Holland did with the results.

 

[newfy]

Complete train wreck lol?

Hronek is at absolute worst on par with Chychrun, with way more offensive upside. Play him in a #3 dman role on Arizona behind Goligoski and OEL and everyone is talking about how much better he is than Chyrchrun on Detroit. I'm not trading Hronek for Chychrun straight up right now. Plus they ditched a big contract and got Cholowski who is still a solid young NHLer.

You might not like the trade but if you value these players differently enough to call it a train wreck, youre not watching the games. Thats not even taking into account the fact that Chychrun has had 3 major knee surgeries by the age of like 21.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

No, you’re ignoring the fact that the trade WAS necessary to get Hronek.

It’s extremely simple math. You’re doing a hindsight re-draft.

And tbh, you’re likely overrating Chychrun and maybe underrating Cholo (he’s had a tough year but still has potential).

Even Smith looks promising for a bottom 6 role.


Getting 2nd round picks in exchange for dead cap space = awesome

Getting 2nd round picks in return for one of your better young players=not so awesome

(I do think we got an okay return on AA, but the context matters)

My point was more about people saying 2nd rounders are garbage. We've picked up players like Hronek and Bertuzzi in the second round.

And the Wings didn't just get the 2nd round picks for dead cap space. They also moved back 4 spots in the draft.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I'm in my mid/late 30's, so yes I do remember Kronwall's early years. With that said, one example of a D-man who began his career with injury issues (which to be fair did come back) does not mean that all will work out. Chychrun is 21 years old and has already suffered 3-4 injuries in the NHL after having an injury plagued junior career. Currently he sits at 210 pounds (according to NHL.com), so we're not talking some 170 pound kid here. What are the odds that Chychrun has an injury free 10+ year career as a top 3 d-man? Hint: not good.

He's going to have a 10+ year career as a top 3 NHL dman. If you have watched us play you know he'd get a boatload of time here, unlike Cholo is probably headed the Jakub Kindl route. I don't claim to be a scout, but I sure as hell can look at our drafts and realize how bad our NA scouting was.

 

[The Zermanator]

Nothing wrong with the trade IMO. Datsyuk was gone and he managed to get rid of his contract and add a pick while only dropping 4 spots. Now with the benefit of some hindsight I definitely take Hronek and Cholowski over Chychrun alone.

The problem was that after he missed out on Stamkos he squandered all of the cap space on long term contracts for beyond their prime vets that were horrible the day they were signed. Both of them are still on the team...

 

[Retire91]

Wings fans: But Hronek though
Me: we didn't need the trade to draft Hronek
Wings fans: But Hronek though
.
.
.

Just kidding I get what you guys are saying I just don't agree. Since Holland got a little luck pulling an asset with the lowest value part of the trade I think I can agree with all of us that we'll take luck where we find it.

I don't see the trade as Holland got rid of a problem and got more out of it.

I see the trade as Holland didn't accept the talent level of the team, bet our future to try another stop gap, put us in a worse position, got lucky with the lowest value asset from the trade, lost on the trade down.

 

[kliq]

He's going to have a 10+ year career as a top 3 NHL dman. If you have watched us play you know he'd get a boatload of time here, unlike Cholo is probably headed the Jakub Kindl route. I don't claim to be a scout, but I sure as hell can look at our drafts and realize how bad our NA scouting was.

LOL ok, nice passive aggressive shot, similar to your previous post implying I wasn't a fan as long as you. Either way, not true and I'll leave it at that as I have no desire to play that game and take personal shots back.

I hope you're right as I want nothing but the best for the kid, but I think you're dead wrong. I also think your argument has nothing to do with Chychrun or Cholowski, and everything to do with the man who pulled the trigger. Unfortunately, I highly doubt Chychrun has 10+ year career as a top 3 guy, too many injuries early in his career, he has all the warning signs of being the type of player who misses significant time every year. I dont believe he'll gain weight and strength and magically no longer hurt himself anymore. IF he can stay healthy, then I'm sure he will be what you say, I NEVER said the kid wasn't talented, my argument from the beginning has always been injury related. Though I still take Hronek over him.

You are saying Chychrun would get big minutes here implying I dont believe that to be true, not sure where you interpreted that, again, my concern with him is that he is injury prone, not that he is a bad player. I also disagree with your take on Chowolski, the kid is 22 and was always said to be a long term project that has high upside, I think because of his strong start last year, people gave up as soon as he regressed, I look forward to him hopefully proving you wrong. Or do you prefer he fails because success would imply Holland made a good pick?

 

[Gniwder]

I also disagree with your take on Chowolski, the kid is 22 and was always said to be a long term project that has high upside, I think because of his strong start last year, people gave up as soon as he regressed, I look forward to him hopefully proving you wrong. Or do you prefer he fails because success would imply Holland made a good pick?

Fail!

Not really, but I don't get why everyone's so high on Cholo. Soft, slow thinking players rarely amount to much. Both might improve with experience, but he's not an NHLer yet as some have proclaimed.

He'll clear waivers if he's still playing like this in 2 years. I hope he improves though, and made put on some bulk.