TV: Big Brother US - Season 21

[Pinkfloyd]

She aligned herself to Tyler early in the game and rode that right to the end and then won because she wasn't Tyler not because of the game she actually played. You can not agree with what I am saying but don't act like I haven't explained why I think Kaycee was a garbage winner. She is one of the worst players to ever win Big Brother. I am actually shocked that there are people that seemingly enjoy and so vehemently defend the type of boring ass game Kaycee played. The good news for you is the current iteration of Big Brother is literally tailor made for you. Must be on cloud nine.

So now making a solid deal early on is doing nothing? If that's nothing then Tyler didn't do anything to close the show because it all fell on Kaycee to get done what he wanted. Only someone with an ax to grind can't see how winning 5 of the final 6 vetoes is doing nothing. Or winning the last HoH is doing nothing. That doesn't even involve all the stupid stuff Tyler was doing that has pretty consistently cost people in this game. People like you just enjoy the backstabbing so much that you think it's respectable when it isn't to everyone. If someone respects that as game play that's a reasonable take. It's also reasonable for someone not to respect that as game play. The fact you believe everyone should just means you like to impose your beliefs on others.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

So now making a solid deal early on is doing nothing? If that's nothing then Tyler didn't do anything to close the show because it all fell on Kaycee to get done what he wanted. Only someone with an ax to grind can't see how winning 5 of the final 6 vetoes is doing nothing. Or winning the last HoH is doing nothing. That doesn't even involve all the stupid stuff Tyler was doing that has pretty consistently cost people in this game. People like you just enjoy the backstabbing so much that you think it's respectable when it isn't to everyone. If someone respects that as game play that's a reasonable take. It's also reasonable for someone not to respect that as game play. The fact you believe everyone should just means you like to impose your beliefs on others.

I never said you have to backstab everyone all the way through to play a good game....I think you should be in some form of control of the game in some way all the way through(or most of it). Derek really didn't back stab anyone and he is arguably a top 5 player because he was so good at playing in the shadows and getting other people to do what he wanted them to do. He was in control of that game from start to finish. In regards to Tyler who did he actually do dirty in the game? There was nothing vicious or vindictive about the way Tyler played yet he "played a dirty game". The people in the jury legitimately thought he was a moron and felt played by the fact that he actually played them. There is literally nothing Tyler could have done about that lol.

You seem to really hitch yourself to those comp wins which is interesting seeing as earlier in this exchange you were the won arguing that Michie being a comp beast shouldn't be a reason for him to win. Kaycee hitched herself on to a winner early on and she does deserve credit for that....but that does not mean she deserved to win that game. I do not care how many challenges she won she is slightly above Ian and that ginger guy for terrible winners.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I never said you have to backstab everyone all the way through to play a good game....I think you should be in some form of control of the game in some way all the way through(or most of it). Derek really didn't back stab anyone and he is arguably a top 5 player because he was so good at playing in the shadows and getting other people to do what he wanted them to do. He was in control of that game from start to finish. In regards to Tyler who did he actually do dirty in the game? There was nothing vicious or vindictive about the way Tyler played yet he "played a dirty game". The people in the jury legitimately thought he was a moron and felt played by the fact that he actually played them. There is literally nothing Tyler could have done about that lol.

You seem to really hitch yourself to those comp wins which is interesting seeing as earlier in this exchange you were the won arguing that Michie being a comp beast shouldn't be a reason for him to win. Kaycee hitched herself on to a winner early on and she does deserve credit for that....but that does not mean she deserved to win that game. I do not care how many challenges she won she is slightly above Ian and that ginger guy for terrible winners.

Derek was pretty honest about how he was playing the game. He didn't have to win many competitions because he was a solid deal maker but he never put himself in a position with those deals to have to choose which he would have to break like Tyler did. That's the difference. I would say the way he treated Sam was quite vicious. There actually was plenty Tyler could've done about how they felt about him. If he doesn't make deals with everyone, they don't have expectations of him to follow through on that he inevitably wouldn't have.

The competitions argument as it relates to Kaycee is in direct response to you saying she did nothing to earn her win. That's complete garbage. If Kaycee was lying to save a significant other, I would say the same about her. If Kaycee was a part of bullying others, I would say the same about her. If Kaycee backed out of a deal like Michie did, I would say the same thing about her. The fact that you don't see the differences is the problem here. Instead of actually thinking about it when challenged, you just double down and triple down on fallacious responses.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Derek was pretty honest about how he was playing the game. He didn't have to win many competitions because he was a solid deal maker but he never put himself in a position with those deals to have to choose which he would have to break like Tyler did. That's the difference. I would say the way he treated Sam was quite vicious. There actually was plenty Tyler could've done about how they felt about him. If he doesn't make deals with everyone, they don't have expectations of him to follow through on that he inevitably wouldn't have.

The competitions argument as it relates to Kaycee is in direct response to you saying she did nothing to earn her win. That's complete garbage. If Kaycee was lying to save a significant other, I would say the same about her. If Kaycee was a part of bullying others, I would say the same about her. If Kaycee backed out of a deal like Michie did, I would say the same thing about her. The fact that you don't see the differences is the problem here. Instead of actually thinking about it when challenged, you just double down and triple down on fallacious responses.

I'm not trying to say Tyler played some flawless game. I don't think he was great the finale night with the questions he answered and he should have been kissing Scottie and Sam's ass and lied to them about how important they were to him and specifically just stroked Scottie's ego....but there also wasn't much time to talk to the jury because those 2 disgusting creatures from last season had to get their air time to propose or whatever. I just think we fundamentally disagree with what constitutes a good game honestly. I don't think you should lose this game because you lied to a couple people. It is really as simple as that. It is one of the main reasons that I basically background watch Big Brother at this point but am invested in every season of Survivor.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'm not trying to say Tyler played some flawless game. I don't think he was great the finale night with the questions he answered and he should have been kissing Scottie and Sam's ass and lied to them about how important they were to him and specifically just stroked Scottie's ego....but there also wasn't much time to talk to the jury because those 2 disgusting creatures from last season had to get their air time to propose or whatever. I just think we fundamentally disagree with what constitutes a good game honestly. I don't think you should lose this game because you lied to a couple people. It is really as simple as that. It is one of the main reasons that I basically background watch Big Brother at this point but am invested in every season of Survivor.

I don't think it's a matter of losing because of lying to a couple people. It's about what you lied about probably more than that you lied. Everyone lies in the house about something but stringing those along only works if they understand that that's what's going on and they're more or less okay with it. If someone trusts you then you betray that trust, what do you expect to happen? If you lie to someone who doesn't trust you in the first place then it's a different story. The difference between Kaycee and Tyler was one vote. If you can't even acknowledge that she had a freaking case then you'll never get it.

 

[ORRFForever]

Ok, so this is the game. Cliff and Nicole, make this deal, thinking that someone else can knock them out, and then it doesn't happen. Holly and Jackson, stick with Cliff and Nicole because Nicole won the double eviction HOH. If Christie or Tommy win that, they are totally selling Nicole down the river. Cliff gets played in the end because he simply believed too much in one thing and nothing about anything else.

The game is always and forever about numbers, and and which side your numbers are on when power is shifting.

It's the hypocrisy that really bothers me.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I don't think it's a matter of losing because of lying to a couple people. It's about what you lied about probably more than that you lied. Everyone lies in the house about something but stringing those along only works if they understand that that's what's going on and they're more or less okay with it. If someone trusts you then you betray that trust, what do you expect to happen? If you lie to someone who doesn't trust you in the first place then it's a different story. The difference between Kaycee and Tyler was one vote. If you can't even acknowledge that she had a freaking case then you'll never get it.

Ian beat Dan to win....did he have a case to win? Just because she got the votes doesn't mean she deserved them. Hell Fessy has openly said the only reason he voted for Kaycee was because she beat him in the veto that eliminated him and the only way he could live with himself is if he lost to a girl that won it all(along with some gross comments about her). I guess I can admit that you can conjure up a reason why Kaycee could have won, just like you could conjure up a reason why Ian won over Dan. That doesn't make it right and that does not make them strong players or deserving winners. Not in my opinion. Kaycee won comps down the stretch and benefited from one of the most bitter juries in Big Brother history.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Ian beat Dan to win....did he have a case to win? Just because she got the votes doesn't mean she deserved them. Hell Fessy has openly said the only reason he voted for Kaycee was because she beat him in the veto that eliminated him and the only way he could live with himself is if he lost to a girl that won it all(along with some gross comments about her). I guess I can admit that you can conjure up a reason why Kaycee could have won, just like you could conjure up a reason why Ian won over Dan. That doesn't make it right and that does not make them strong players or deserving winners. Not in my opinion. Kaycee won comps down the stretch and benefited from one of the most bitter juries in Big Brother history.

Who deserves to win is a matter of opinion and not a right or wrong question. Tyler or Dan controlling the game to some extent doesn't make it right to vote for them to win this game. You have to understand that there's a plethora of criteria for who wins a game based on each individual. Your standard isn't the be all end all and a smart player should know that.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Who deserves to win is a matter of opinion and not a right or wrong question. Tyler or Dan controlling the game to some extent doesn't make it right to vote for them to win this game. You have to understand that there's a plethora of criteria for who wins a game based on each individual. Your standard isn't the be all end all and a smart player should know that.

I completely understand that and that is basically my entire problem with Big Brother....that being the better player doesn't really matter all that much.

 

[Leafs Fan 12]

And yet you can't actually back that up with anything reasonable. You can say you believe Tyler did more to deserve it but you can't say she didn't do anything to deserve her win. You couldn't get her out of the house the last 6 weeks of the show and somehow to you that's not doing anything. That's an absurd opinion to have.

You could say that about any winner since they weren't voted out and yet not every winner was a deserved winner

 

[GKJ]

HOH Comp thus far:

Spoiler

Jackson won Part 1
Holly won Part 2

So, that's it for the season for me, I'm interested no further.

 

[Peasy]

HOH Comp thus far:

Spoiler

Jackson won Part 1
Holly won Part 2

So, that's it for the season for me, I'm interested no further.

Spoiler

Cliff single handedly ruining Nicole's game. Oof.

 

[MAHJ71]

HOH Comp thus far:

Spoiler

Jackson won Part 1
Holly won Part 2

So, that's it for the season for me, I'm interested no further.

 

[ORRFForever]

Spoiler

Cliff single handedly ruining Nicole's game. Oof.

Why do you say that?

 

[ORRFForever]

HOH Comp thus far:

Spoiler

Jackson won Part 1
Holly won Part 2

So, that's it for the season for me, I'm interested no further.

Yup.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I have also given up, no desire to watch.

 

[Peasy]

Why do you say that?

Spoiler

Nicole wanted Holly out but cliff would not budge on sending Tommy home. If they were to the split the votes, Jackson would have kept Holly with the tie breaker. Cliff actually screwed his game and Nicole's with that decision. I honestly think Tommy would have beaten Jackson in the latest veto. On the live feeds it was mentioned that Jackson really screwed up during the comp multiple times but was just so much quicker at retrieving the balls than everyone else.

 

[ORRFForever]

Spoiler

Nicole wanted Holly out but cliff would not budge on sending Holly home. If they were the split the votes, Jackson would have kept Holly with the tie breaker. Cliff actually screwed his game and Nicole's with that decision. I honestly think Tommy would have beat Jackson in the latest veto. On the live feeds it was mentioned that Jackson really screwed up during the comp multiple times but was just so much quicker at retrieving the balls than everyone else.

You make some good points.

 

[ORRFForever]

I don't want to offend anyone with this question but...

Is Julie Chen wearing a Cross?

I thought she was in the past but I also thought she was Buddhist.

Edit : Nevermind. Turns out she is Catholic - found a link.

 

[hoglund]

Holly is going to win.

 

[jw2]

I wouldn’t say Michie is ‘consensus best player’

I think it's pretty obvious that he is.

Feel free to bring up anything showing otherwise.

 

[MAHJ71]

I'll watch the finale just because it's silly to give up on it when someone you dislike could win ..

Overall I'd say it was an average season .. nothing amazing but, it definitely got interesting down the stretch.

 

[Cor]

Yeah, Michie should win this game. He’s been a beast in the comps, and made big moves.

Nicole.... like I said, the execution is zero. She knows the game, and what is going on, but doesn’t execute on what needs to be done. I think she’s sorta like Jordan or the other Nicole where they knew the game the first time around but couldn’t execute, but if she returned for another season, would be my top pick to win it.

Holly isn’t a bad option, as she’s won comps, probably had the best social game of the three, and has been actively apart of everything that’s gone on.

Nicole and (mainly) Cliff botched that final 5 so badly. It’s some of the worst gameplay ever this late in the game, after they were give a full opportunity to send Holly home on Michie’s HOH, and have a 3v1 vs Michie on the POV comp this week (which was a comp that Tommy likely wins easily).

It’s been an interesting season.

But if Michie is F2, he should win the season, like 100% over both Nicole and Holly. If the jury votes the other way, it’s just another decent-good season ruined by the jury giving the win to the wrong person

 

[GKJ]

I think it's pretty obvious that he is.

Feel free to bring up anything showing otherwise.

It may be obvious that he is to you, but consensus means that everyone else does too, and that's not the case.

Yeah, Michie should win this game. He’s been a beast in the comps, and made big moves.

Nicole.... like I said, the execution is zero. She knows the game, and what is going on, but doesn’t execute on what needs to be done. I think she’s sorta like Jordan or the other Nicole where they knew the game the first time around but couldn’t execute, but if she returned for another season, would be my top pick to win it.

Holly isn’t a bad option, as she’s won comps, probably had the best social game of the three, and has been actively apart of everything that’s gone on.

Nicole and (mainly) Cliff botched that final 5 so badly. It’s some of the worst gameplay ever this late in the game, after they were give a full opportunity to send Holly home on Michie’s HOH, and have a 3v1 vs Michie on the POV comp this week (which was a comp that Tommy likely wins easily).

It’s been an interesting season.

But if Michie is F2, he should win the season, like 100% over both Nicole and Holly. If the jury votes the other way, it’s just another decent-good season ruined by the jury giving the win to the wrong person

When it came to final 5, everyone needed to win for themselves in the end, and that wasn't going to change regardless of whether or not Tommy stayed. It's easy to say it was the wrong move, but Tommy didn't make it an easy move to keep him. Tommy is the one who didn't play his cards right, he went to Michie and Holly first about knowing Christie, only went to Cliff and Nicole about it when he needed them, and that's why Nicole was sketchy on keeping him and thus could be convinced to not have done it. Cliff was far too naive, but it's still only wrong in hindsight.

If they brought Nicole back, I fear(?) it would be a Rachel situation where they did an entire season knowing from Day 1 that only one person could win it. Returning houseguests most often do not retain the full popularity they had the first time.

 

[MAHJ71]

Gut is telling me Holly will win due to bitter jury.