Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics)

[McMetal]

You seriously think we are going to win cups with guys like Tanguay, Martinsen and Comeau in the top6?

Of course not. But I'll bet you anything that Tanguay and Martinsen don't return next year and Rantanen takes one of those spots. That leaves exactly one hole in the top six, and there are LOTS of scenarios that can fill that hole that do not involve compromising the D. Drouin is hardly the only LW who could conceivably fit there.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

An angle that is never discussed with Stuart is Brisson. The Avs have a great relationship with him and I'm sure Brisson played a huge role in the whole process.

How much of a relationship did Sakic have with Brisson at that time though? I don't think Sakic was involved much when Duchene got his bridge deal. The long term Duchene and EJ deals came after the Stuart move. Also Mack's ELC (which im sure went over smoothly anyway).

You could be onto something but I feel Stuart was traded for and signed because either Sakic or Roy (or both) thought he could be a great stay at home defender and solid veteran.

edit: nevermind. I got Stuart mixed up with Sarich. Stuart came the year after the fun year so you could definitely be onto something.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

He said offensive winger is a luxury. I am among the group that doesn't believe Drouin checks off enough boxes for what the Avs need in order to justify trading a player like Zads or a significant package that will hammer the little depth the team has built. So yes, to me he is a luxury.

Is what he said anymore ridiculous than saying those who are hesitant to trade for Drouin clearly haven't watched him play? Because there is plenty of that going around the boards as well.

Yes, I know what he said. I also know he didn't mention anything about an offensive winger being a luxury for us. He was talking about hockey in general.

As for us, yes, his style would be a luxury. Personally, I would like to see us add a 2way 2C, though I wouldn't say we need to. Last I checked, there are no 2way, 20 year old, ELC centers available though. However, adding another top6 forward is not a luxury. Wether it's a C or a W, or a scorer or 2 way guy, we very much need another top6 forward. Luckily we have some versatility amongst our current top6 players and don't have to have a specific position or style. We just need someone to fill a top6 role.

Yes, his comment is much more ridiculous. There are people who have obviously not watched him play. There are people pointing to his production to claim he isn't that good of a prospect. I have not really watched him, but it's obvious from those who have that his stats don't tell the whole story. But thats not stopping people from using those stats to downgrade his value/talent/potential/whatever. Pointing out that people should not just look at stats is not ridiculous. That's common sense.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Excuse me while I vomit. I would despise that trade.


At what point has anyone ever said that?

I say something about our top6 having too many lesser players, and get a response arguing that our scoring has been good. So, not really sure the point of arguing if the poster didn't think those guys were good enough.

 

[shadow1]

Drouin is intriguing because no one knows what he is.

On one hand, the Avalanche could use more firepower up front, but on the other, it can't come at the expense of a defense that is finally showing promise.

We've all seen what this team looks like loaded up front - 2014. It was fun while it lasted but you need balance.

Assuming Colorado is truly in on Drouin, I hope they're starting with their 1st Round Pick, and potentially adding something small to it. To me, that's the equivalent of saying "Okay, right now we'd be drafting 20th. We can sacrifice that selection in the hopes Drouin is as good as everyone thought he'd be three years ago."

Trading a guy like Bigras, who has shown promise, is enhancing the risk. A draft pick is only a lottery ticket, at the end of the day.

 

[henchman21]

How much of a relationship did Sakic have with Brisson at that time though? I don't think Sakic was involved much when Duchene got his bridge deal. The long term Duchene and EJ deals came after the Stuart move. Also Mack's ELC (which im sure went over smoothly anyway).

You could be onto something but I feel Stuart was traded for and signed because either Sakic or Roy (or both) thought he could be a great stay at home defender and solid veteran.

edit: nevermind. I got Stuart mixed up with Sarich. Stuart came the year after the fun year so you could definitely be onto something.

Don't forget Briere either.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Of course not. But I'll bet you anything that Tanguay and Martinsen don't return next year and Rantanen takes one of those spots. That leaves exactly one hole in the top six, and there are LOTS of scenarios that can fill that hole that do not involve compromising the D. Drouin is hardly the only LW who could conceivably fit there.

Considering our cap, Drouin (or someone else on an ELC) might be the only one who could fit there.

its going to be a lot easier to pay for another bottom pair guy to replace Zadorov in the short term than it would be to fill that top6 role.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Considering our cap, Drouin (or someone else on an ELC) might be the only one who could fit there.

its going to be a lot easier to pay for another bottom pair guy to replace Zadorov in the short term than it would be to fill that top6 role.

OK, and how are you replacing Zadorov when Beauchemin falls apart? And what about when EJ inevitably gets hurt again? Or if Barrie asks for too much money and we pay him, and need some cheap ELC talent on D? Or when Holden goes back to being a bottom pairing guy, which he ideally should be anyway? Zadorov isn't expected to just be a bottom pairing guy. He's expected to be a lot more.

I say something about our top6 having too many lesser players, and get a response arguing that our scoring has been good. So, not really sure the point of arguing if the poster didn't think those guys were good enough.

Saying they're good doesn't mean they think they can win a Cup with them. There's a difference. I don't think there's anyone out there that thinks the Avs can win the cup with their current set of wingers.

 

[ArWKo]

Unless you have an absolute excess of NHL caliber defenseman in your system, I don't think there's an excuse to trade your defensive depth in order to shore up what isn't great but by no means is awful winger/scoring depth. Winger depth can be much more easily address in the draft or free agency than NHL quality defenseman can be found in a similar ways.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

I really like:

Rantanen
Bigras
Zadorov
Meloche
Compher
Wood
Martin
Beaudin

I'd say the first 2 are untouchable, Zads nearly untouchable, Meloche and Compher very hard to trade for me, and Wood/Martin/Beaudin tough as well. Anybody else can go without much care, and that includes Bleackley. I understand the above prospects would be required in trades for Drouin-like players, but those are my main prospects I really like. Wood, for example, wouldn't have nearly the trade value that we perceive his talent and potential to reflect.

What about Pickard? Or do you no longer consider him a prospect?

 

[tigervixxxen]

Yes, I know what he said. I also know he didn't mention anything about an offensive winger being a luxury for us. He was talking about hockey in general.

As for us, yes, his style would be a luxury. Personally, I would like to see us add a 2way 2C, though I wouldn't say we need to. Last I checked, there are no 2way, 20 year old, ELC centers available though. However, adding another top6 forward is not a luxury. Wether it's a C or a W, or a scorer or 2 way guy, we very much need another top6 forward. Luckily we have some versatility amongst our current top6 players and don't have to have a specific position or style. We just need someone to fill a top6 role.

Yes, his comment is much more ridiculous. There are people who have obviously not watched him play. There are people pointing to his production to claim he isn't that good of a prospect. I have not really watched him, but it's obvious from those who have that his stats don't tell the whole story. But thats not stopping people from using those stats to downgrade his value/talent/potential/whatever. Pointing out that people should not just look at stats is not ridiculous. That's common sense.

I can think of a 20 year old 2 way ELC C.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

OK, and how are you replacing Zadorov when Beauchemin falls apart? And what about when EJ inevitably gets hurt again? Or if Barrie asks for too much money and we pay him, and need some cheap ELC talent on D? Or when Holden goes back to being a bottom pairing guy, which he ideally should be anyway? Zadorov isn't expected to just be a bottom pairing guy. He's expected to be a lot more.


Saying they're good doesn't mean they think they can win a Cup with them. There's a difference. I don't think there's anyone out there that thinks the Avs can win the cup with their current set of wingers.

Yes, I know Zadorov is expected to be more than a bottom pair guy. Hence the reason I mentioned in the short term.

Long term, We have more Dmen in the system. That's not really an immediate problem. If none are ready to replace Beauch then we have Beauch's cap to work with at least when that time comes. We also have Iggy and Stuart coming off the books after next year. We should have some cap space to bring in a FA if one of our many Dmen are not ready by this time.

What if MacK or Duchene get hurt? What if Comeau reverts back to being very inconsistent? What if Soderberg is just having a career year? How do we fix this top6 problem for next year? Are we just suppose to accept that our wingers are not good enough and that next year we have no hope?

The ultimate goal is the cup. When talking about constructing a team that is what I have in mind at all times.

 

[tigervixxxen]

That's why we don't package assets together when the depth of this team is held together by a string. We aren't ready plain and simple. Stick to the plan.

 

[henchman21]

I lie somewhere in the middle on this... I think the Avs depth issues are grossly over exaggerated (the 23 and under roster is quite impressive actually... and that doesn't include EJ, Varly, Duchene, and Barrie who should be here long-term), but they can't freely spend either. If the price for Drouin is 1st + Meloche/Wood/Bleackley/etc the Avs can easily absorb that loss. If the price is Bigras/Zadorov + 2nd, they can absorb the loss. The Avs can't afford a combo of 2 of Rantanen/Bigras/Zadorov/Meloche.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Unless you have an absolute excess of NHL caliber defenseman in your system, I don't think there's an excuse to trade your defensive depth in order to shore up what isn't great but by no means is awful winger/scoring depth. Winger depth can be much more easily address in the draft or free agency than NHL quality defenseman can be found in a similar ways.

If it's not good enough for a cup then it might as well be aweful. The whole point of playing these games is to win. If the point was to be competitive and not be aweful, well then I guess we are in a good spot.

We are not talking about winger depth. We have plenty of depth. We are talking about high end wingers. that is not something we will be able to address next year in FA or the draft, unless we get very lucky (our mid round pick is top6 ready right away, or we dump Stuart, which still might not be enough to pay for a FA, might need to dump Iggy as well. I'm not sure either will be gone).

I can think of a 20 year old 2 way ELC C.

I honestly have no clue who you are talking about.

 

[cgf]

Beauch could well pull an iggy or tangs next season. Holden could go back to first half of last season holden at any moment. Barrie's extension could cripple our ability to add depth. And EJ will miss some time to injuries. Giving up the most talented dman in the organization would be insane, and we need to see our defensive depth actually become a thing before we start leveraging it to bolster the supporting cast around Landy/MacK/Dutchy/Mikko.

 

[henchman21]

Barrie's extension could cripple our ability to add depth.

At worst... that is a 1 year crunch.

 

[JoemAvs]

If it's not good enough for a cup then it might as well be aweful. The whole point of playing these games is to win. If the point was to be competitive and not be aweful, well then I guess we are in a good spot.

We are not talking about winger depth. We have plenty of depth. We are talking about high end wingers. that is not something we will be able to address next year in FA or the draft, unless we get very lucky (our mid round pick is top6 ready right away, or we dump Stuart, which still might not be enough to pay for a FA, might need to dump Iggy as well. I'm not sure either will be gone).

Even if we get Drouin, the Avs would atleast need 2 years of development before we could be considered real cup contenders.

By then Rantanen, Drouin, Bigras and Zadorov will be up for an extension. Even if we trade one of Bigras / Zadorov, we would still need to pay the other 3.

Duchene (assuming he stays on wing), Landeskog, Rantanen and Drouin...

In order to be a cupcontender all of them would have to pan out and all of them can be used as wingers.

Can we really pay all those guys or is a repeat of the ROR situation just waiting to happen and the window of contention with all those guys rather short?

Wouldn't it be smarter to invest on defense and go cheaper on the wings?


It only really makes sense if Drouin develops into a franchise player. And I am sceptical about that to say the least.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Beauch could well pull an iggy or tangs next season. Holden could go back to first half of last season holden at any moment. Barrie's extension could cripple our ability to add depth. And EJ will miss some time to injuries. Giving up the most talented dman in the organization would be insane, and we need to see our defensive depth actually become a thing before we start leveraging it to bolster the supporting cast around Landy/MacK/Dutchy/Mikko.

The same applies to the forwards. There will always be what if questions.

When taking the NHL roster into account, we need a guy like Drouin just as much as we need a guy like Zadorov.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The same applies to the forwards. There will always be what if questions.

When taking the NHL roster into account, we need a guy like Drouin just as much as we need a guy like Zadorov.

That's definitely not true. The scarcity and premium placed on defense alone refutes that.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I lie somewhere in the middle on this... I think the Avs depth issues are grossly over exaggerated (the 23 and under roster is quite impressive actually... and that doesn't include EJ, Varly, Duchene, and Barrie who should be here long-term), but they can't freely spend either. If the price for Drouin is 1st + Meloche/Wood/Bleackley/etc the Avs can easily absorb that loss. If the price is Bigras/Zadorov + 2nd, they can absorb the loss. The Avs can't afford a combo of 2 of Rantanen/Bigras/Zadorov/Meloche.

At this point there's no way they're offering that... had they it would be done by now. It will end up being a combo of the first package.

 

[henchman21]

In terms of pure value... a top 6 wing is worth about the same as a 3/4D... a legit 1st line wing is probably worth a 2/3D (think about what it would take to get Landy). Top pairing defensemen are worth top end centers.

The Avs don't need Drouin as much as they need Zadorov or Bigras, but if you are confident 1 of those 2 are locks to be top 4D... you can sacrifice one to fill a top 6 wing need. I'm not advocating that trade (I wouldn't make it myself), but if the Avs can keep a 1st round pick, they can backfill the defensive depth by drafting one early. If they are not giving up Rantanen, Zadorov, or Bigras... the Avs can recover from putting any other prospect/s in the trade.

At this point there's no way they're offering that... had they it would be done by now. It will end up being a combo of the first package.

100% agree.

 

[twostroke27]

Unless Bigras/Rant are off the table, I don't want Drouin. Zads would be in the realm of considering, but I'm still not sure I'd do it at that point. I would certainly listen and think.

Looking at both players, I think they both have high ceilings. I'm not overly inclined to trade defenseman who look like top four potential, as our defense has been horrendous the last ten years.

 

[the_fan]

People were ready to trade Barrie for Drouin and don't wanna do Zadorov for Drouin?

This place is so puzzling sometimes.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

People were ready to trade Barrie for Drouin and don't wanna do Zadorov for Drouin?

This place is so puzzling sometimes.

I don't think anyone made a complete 180 degree on their opinion on him. Could be wrong tho.