Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part XVIII

[Balthazar]

Moving Duchene for a logical return makes sense, as it does with all players on this roster, but selling him to the "highest bid" no matter what is silly. If he is moved, he should be moved for a return that will help this team, not to move him because we should just get whatever we can.

I think we'll get a good offer from one of the other 31 teams and we should accept it. Maybe not a great offer but a decent one. Duchene showing up at the next training camp would send an awful message to the rest of the team. He's ready to move on and his head is obviously no longer in Colorado (not that I blame him). We need new faces and a drastic change of the current culture. He really needs to go (along with at least 5-6 other guys).

 

[Balthazar]

I was reading an article about Pierre McGuire and came accross some quotes from when he got fired from the Whalers as a head coach...

Heres one of them:

In a blistering post-mortem, captain Pat Verbeek called McGuire's firing the best thing that could have happened to the Whalers. He said other teams mocked their coach. He said his own teammates had no respect for McGuire. He said a number of players wouldn't have wanted to play in Hartford anymore.

I couldn't help but think "what if Bednar is in a similar position"?

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Moving Duchene for a logical return makes sense, as it does with all players on this roster, but selling him to the "highest bid" no matter what is silly. If he is moved, he should be moved for a return that will help this team, not to move him because we should just get whatever we can.

By definition the highest bid would be the deal that would be most helpful to the team, how is that not obvious?

 

[CalderKing21]

I want to see a full season of Bednar with his own staff in place before I call for his head.

He had some very bad moments as the HC but this is a roster that is not at all structured in the manner he would like and it was a sudden hiring.

 

[McMetal]

By definition the highest bid would be the deal that would be most helpful to the team, how is that not obvious?

No, by definition the highest bid is whatever somebody else is willing to bid. Maybe that highest bid makes the team better, maybe it changes nothing, maybe it makes things worse. If it doesn't make the team better, it doesn't matter if it's the best offer. You hang up the phone and move on. Duchene is under contract for two more seasons. You don't make your team worse to get rid of him.

 

[McMetal]

I want to see a full season of Bednar with his own staff in place before I call for his head.

He had some very bad moments as the HC but this is a roster that is not at all structured in the manner he would like and it was a sudden hiring.

Until he fires Army, he's not going to have "his own staff". And he knew what he was getting into when he took the job. It's not very realistic to say that any good coach in his position would have had the same season. To go from a bubble team to historical suckitude isn't normal.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

No, by definition the highest bid is whatever somebody else is willing to bid. Maybe that highest bid makes the team better, maybe it changes nothing, maybe it makes things worse. If it doesn't make the team better, it doesn't matter if it's the best offer. You hang up the phone and move on. Duchene is under contract for two more seasons. You don't make your team worse to get rid of him.

You're dealing in unseeable and undefineable currency lol, when we're the ones doing the valuation, we set what is the most valuable currency for us, in which case it would be young players (Dmen in particular) and futures. So by definition we'd take the highest bid in our eyes. We aren't accepting bids that don't fit our vision anyways, so outlandish value offers shouldn't even be considered as part of the "bid" equation. Either way this is just semantics, we're both saying the same thing in different ways haha

 

[The Merchant]

.73 career PPG is chopped liver? Come on now.

And no, neither of them is a lock to reach that level. Patrick's injury and compete level issues could hold him back, and I frankly don't think Hischier is going to be able to do what he does at the NHL level.

He's also established himself as one of the best faceoff guys in the league. The Duchene bashing around here has reached pretty incredible levels of stupid lately. Sheesh

 

[lonelybadger]

The best thing that could happen to this team is army getting fired. The power play is atrocious and it's holding back players from both winnings games and producing at a high pace on the scoresheet.

 

[The Merchant]

The best thing that could happen to this team is army getting fired. The power play is atrocious and it's holding back players from both winnings games and producing at a high pace on the scoresheet.

The man is bulletproof. It's truly one of the most befuddling aspects of this FO.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

The man is bulletproof. It's truly one of the most befuddling aspects of this FO.

But he has such a positive influence on the players...

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

The best thing that could happen to this team is army getting fired. The power play is atrocious and it's holding back players from both winnings games and producing at a high pace on the scoresheet.

This reminds me, I believe it was yesterday that the Avs FB page updated with a little "Landeskog led the team with 5 PPG's" post. It got rightfully torn apart as that is absolutely pathetic production, especially considering that it only took 5 powerplay goals to lead this team. Then again, this is a team and management that seems to look at itself introspectively and comes back with "damn, we are awesome and so successful!", or so it seems.

 

[ThatAvsGamer]

I hope we don't trade Duchene unless it's for something really good. I don't really trust what Sakic will get for him. He's been awful at trading.

Unpopular opinion, but i'd rather see Landeskog traded before Duchene.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

I hope we don't trade Duchene unless it's for something really good. I don't really trust what Sakic will get for him. He's been awful at trading.

Unpopular opinion, but i'd rather see Landeskog traded before Duchene.

What if it's MacK they trade? He can return a legit #2 damn.

 

[henchman21]

Ok, but what then, did that mean for the other three lines? I remember people complaining that the opposition just had to focus on shutting that one line down, and that was it for us.

Secondly, for whatever reason, Duchene doesn't seem to have chemistry with Mackinnon. Not sure why, but he doesn't. Then again, Mueller, Fleishmann & a few others really suited his game. The best line for us in the past 5 years was Landeskog - Stastny - Mackinnon. Why, because they all had amazing chemistry - and I say this when Stazz was my all time favorite player (so it's without bias) - I think Dutchy is naturally more "offensively" more gifted. So why did Stazz produce like a machine with Landy / Mack when Dutchy doesn't so much?

This past season was an anomaly.

I don't mean to be rude guys (Pierce, you're an amazing, knowledgable, wonderful, needed fan), but for anyone to say they'll give up on the team if Duchene is on it.....come onnnnn....we are Avs family here - we can all talk about walking away IF or IF NOT something happens, but mate, I know you'll be back game one through 82 (then playoffs next season) no matter what ! Hehehehe.

Have faith guys. Burgundy and Blue all the way !

Next year is a lost season regardless. At this point, the Avs will be rolling MacK-Compher-Jost down the middle. That might swap if Patrick gets selected (only draftee that I think should be in the NHL next season). In that case swap Jost over to win. Duchene doesn't fit here as a center next season, that doesn't help his value at all. Nor does him being salty again and producing at a lower rate than his career average.

Duchene's chemistry issues are on him at this point. He has been in the league long enough to learn how to work with other players and he simply can't. IMO that is a player you really don't want to rely on to win. That isn't going to be a popular opinion, but a big part of the reason the Avs have had issues building around Duchene is that.

I would consider trading him for junk and forward prospects now a much bigger failure than keeping him and seeing how things lie once he can negotiate a new contract, either with us or some other team. We can't just **** away assets because we're mad at Duchene for underperforming in a season that nobody on the team should be proud of.

The point is that Duchene's value isn't going to go up from here. The contract is becoming more and more of an issue. Duchene has underperformed (and I'd argue starting to regress). There are legitimate questions on if he is really a guy you want at center. Sakic has had some very good offers put forth, and he has refused them time and time again. Yeah, he is looking for a home run... but that homerun isn't happening. Sakic has overplayed his hand and it is becoming more and more likely that this ends in a Luongo situation where a player is left out there for years until there is next to no value left.

Right now the offers won't be terrible (teams and scouts will give a mulligan for one bad season), but if Duchene plays wing all next year and only performs at a ~45-50 point pace... the value will be far lower next season. The only way Duchene's value recovers is if he goes back to being a 70+ point center next season... I'd say that is very unlikely with how the lineup looks, Duchene's age, and Bednar.

 

[dahrougem2]

I want to see a full season of Bednar with his own staff in place before I call for his head.

He had some very bad moments as the HC but this is a roster that is not at all structured in the manner he would like and it was a sudden hiring.

This is something that just makes me shake my head. No coach in the league should have a roster "structured in the manner he would like".

Is it good to have maybe some depth players who are "your" guys that can do what you want on the 3rd/4th line and 3rd defensive pairing? Sure. But you don't build a team around a coach. A coach needs to adapt to his team. Something Bednar CLEARLY showed he is a complete failure at doing literally one month into the season

 

[henchman21]

This is something that just makes me shake my head. No coach in the league should have a roster "structured in the manner he would like".

Is it good to have maybe some depth players who are "your" guys that can do what you want on the 3rd/4th line and 3rd defensive pairing? Sure. But you don't build a team around a coach. A coach needs to adapt to his team. Something Bednar CLEARLY showed he is a complete failure at doing literally one month into the season

100% agree with one exception... Babcock. When you have the best coach in the league, you stick by them and build the team they want. Everybody else, hire the coach to fit the team.

 

[dahrougem2]

100% agree with one exception... Babcock. When you have the best coach in the league, you stick by them and build the team they want. Everybody else, hire the coach to fit the team.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule. I think we're both in agreement Bednar won't be in that exception category anytime soon.

 

[detrude]

The man is bulletproof. It's truly one of the most befuddling aspects of this FO.

He's the new Jacques Cloutier.

 

[Bender]

You're being ridiculous right now. Someone will send an offer that's not awful that will be accepted.

I get that, but I think that Sakic's idea of "decent assets" might be different than ours. Unless those decent assets actually fill some holes, the trade will be seen as a failure, especially if Duchene rebounds and blows the doors off the league with a competitive team.

Duchene definitely gets moved. The timing is right to get a good return for him and the Avs will get younger. There is going to be plenty of interest. As I keep mentioning, the expansion draft is a likely time for him to move on.

We won't get the package that Sakic was insisting on at the TDL but we will definitely get the standard : Established solid NHLer (preferably a Top-4 d-man), a top prospect (ONE OF a team's best prospects) and a 1st round pick. That's the MINIMUM return that we can look forward to getting in return for Duchene. Let's say 2 or 3 teams are interested, then the price goes up a bit.

I think NYI and NASH would make sense and those teams are likely to be interested. Clearly the Habs have that need but they better be willing to pay up for it to happen.

Next year is a lost season regardless. At this point, the Avs will be rolling MacK-Compher-Jost down the middle. That might swap if Patrick gets selected (only draftee that I think should be in the NHL next season). In that case swap Jost over to win. Duchene doesn't fit here as a center next season, that doesn't help his value at all. Nor does him being salty again and producing at a lower rate than his career average.

Duchene's chemistry issues are on him at this point. He has been in the league long enough to learn how to work with other players and he simply can't. IMO that is a player you really don't want to rely on to win. That isn't going to be a popular opinion, but a big part of the reason the Avs have had issues building around Duchene is that.

I don't agree with you that next year is a 'lost season'...I think a big part of that will depend on how 'the remaining players' still enjoy playing for Bednar. I think if they tank early, he's gone regardless. I really believe there is a way to turn this thing around in a significant manner, so that we are back to being at least, a playoff bubble team. Doesn't mean we are going to contend or be a serious threat but the Avs have to make some headway and start trending the right way. It should be a priority for management to make that happen.

 

[Nalens Oga]

100% agree with one exception... Babcock. When you have the best coach in the league, you stick by them and build the team they want. Everybody else, hire the coach to fit the team.

I don't even think you make an exception for a guy like Babcock. He's a good coach but as a Leafs fan as well, I think he's horrible at lines and roster choices. He refuses to budge on guys like Brown or Hyman and he'll give more TOI at times to older players than younger ones. If you're a rebuilding team, you can't let your coach block your prospects (which he hasn't done that much in Toronto but I think he will starting next season). I want the GM to be in full control of the roster.

 

[henchman21]

I don't agree with you that next year is a 'lost season'...I think a big part of that will depend on how 'the remaining players' still enjoy playing for Bednar. I think if they tank early, he's gone regardless. I really believe there is a way to turn this thing around in a significant manner, so that we are back to being at least, a playoff bubble team. Doesn't mean we are going to contend or be a serious threat but the Avs have to make some headway and start trending the right way. It should be a priority for management to make that happen.

Bednar coming back pretty much means the start of the season will at least be bad. This team will have no offense, and the defense/goaltending won't be nearly good enough to make up for that. Even getting back a Hanifin for Duchene wouldn't matter with him at the helm. Long-term, maybe it could work (if the Avs can develop a great defensive group), but the first ~30 games are going to be bad next season. By that time they will likely be in a huge hole they can't fully recover from, even if things went well after Bednar got the hook or the team turned it around under him.

In other words, this team isn't built a way that Bednar can be successful, and that isn't turning around this offseason alone.

I don't even think you make an exception for a guy like Babcock. He's a good coach but as a Leafs fan as well, I think he's horrible at lines and roster choices. He refuses to budge on guys like Brown or Hyman and he'll give more TOI at times to older players than younger ones. If you're a rebuilding team, you can't let your coach block your prospects (which he hasn't done that much in Toronto but I think he will starting next season). I want the GM to be in full control of the roster.

Even with those decisions his teams compete far over their heads. You take the good with the bad for him.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

If Beds already lost the room, they might intentionally play god-awful just to get him fired.

 

[hughdreamz]

If Beds already lost the room, they might intentionally play god-awful just to get him fired.

Our veterans will definitely. Don't see Soderberg trying much if this is the case.

 

[Avs_19]

21. Rumour shot down: that Colorado was looking at beefing up its scouting department with a “Rick Dudley-type” hire. (That’s the phrase I used when asking, because that’s the way it was presented to me.) GM Joe Sakic said Jared Bednar will return as coach, feeling Bednar was not given a fair opportunity to show his best last season.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-islanders-working-hard-john-tavares-extension-pitch/

They could certainly use some beefing up in the scouting department.