Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part XVIII

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Is everybody's imagination so limited that they can't foresee a Duchene trade being worse than the alternative? How about Seabrook+1st? If that's the best offer he gets, do you really want him to pull the trigger on that deal?

Yes, absolutely.


I dont care what the best deal he can get is(It wont be that), he takes whatever best offer he gets this summer.


Whether that's Sergachev + 1st + Hudon from Montreal, or Hamonic + Strome + whatever from NYI, or Murray + 1st + whatever from CBJ.


Take the best offer and move on.

 

[McMetal]

When did he tell us that? I mean it seemed pretty clear they were willing to accept Ceci as the best defender, and he's anything but a "top" defensman.

The real prize in that package was White. Ceci was a token defenseman that he could ice for the casuals. And that's all assuming that Ceci+White+1st was a real offer. All we have to back that up is leaks from Ottawa trying to poison the waters.

 

[McMetal]

Yes, absolutely.


I dont care what the best deal he can get is(It wont be that), he takes whatever best offer he gets this summer.


Whether that's Sergachev + 1st + Hudon from Montreal, or Hamonic + Strome + whatever from NYI, or Murray + 1st + whatever from CBJ.


Take the best offer and move on.

Have you seen Seabrook's contract? That's a franchise crippler, he basically has negative value. GMs don't have the luxury of being emotional when it comes to trades and just doing whatever it takes to get rid of a player. Look how much Bergevin ****ed up his Habs trying to get rid of Subban because he didn't like him in the locker room.

What if NONE of those offers gets made this summer? If Duchene's value is so tarnished, and nobody ponies up your proposals, what then? Trades need two teams to agree, Sakic can't just bully his way into making a team give up a fair price.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Part of that is being a decent negotiator and a proper GM. No, a guy can't brainwash someone to give up assets for a bag of crap but we are talking about Duchene here, if he can't work to find a fair and acceptable return then he's not doing his job. He can't throw up his hands and say he tried about everything. I don't expect a young #1 potential or a blue chip prospect. I know he's not a miracle worker. But if he can't get a collection of decent assets then he just simply can't do his job.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Have you seen Seabrook's contract? That's a franchise crippler, he basically has negative value. GMs don't have the luxury of being emotional when it comes to trades and just doing whatever it takes to get rid of a player. Look how much Bergevin ****ed up his Habs trying to get rid of Subban because he didn't like him in the locker room.

What if NONE of those offers gets made this summer? If Duchene's value is so tarnished, and nobody ponies up your proposals, what then? Trades need two teams to agree, Sakic can't just bully his way into making a team give up a fair price.

You're being ridiculous right now. Someone will send an offer that's not awful that will be accepted.


But ok, if you want to keep playing your sill game then fine, lets trade him for a 7th. I dont care what the return is at this point Duchene has to go.



But if we want to stop being silly, unless Sakic is so dumb at this job that he refuses every trade offer he gets this summer, the Avs will get a decent offer from a couple of teams that will be worth the trade for Duchene to move. Even if we dont get as much as any of the offers I suggested(Which I think we will easily get) then we take the best offer available and move on. If that offer turns out to be no more then a 7th round pick we still take it and move on. Obviously Duchene isn't half the player we thought he was in that circumstance that will never happen.

 

[McMetal]

Part of that is being a decent negotiator and a proper GM. No, a guy can't brainwash someone to give up assets for a bag of crap but we are talking about Duchene here, if he can't work to find a fair and acceptable return then he's not doing his job. He can't throw up his hands and say he tried about everything. I don't expect a young #1 potential or a blue chip prospect. I know he's not a miracle worker. But if he can't get a collection of decent assets then he just simply can't do his job.

I get that, but I think that Sakic's idea of "decent assets" might be different than ours. Unless those decent assets actually fill some holes, the trade will be seen as a failure, especially if Duchene rebounds and blows the doors off the league with a competitive team.

 

[Sea Eagles]

Just say Vegas won the first over pick at the lottery, and Avs won the second pick, would anyone trade Duchene to Vegas for their pick in what is classed a weaker draft?

We then draft both Patrick & Hischier?

 

[McMetal]

You're being ridiculous right now. Someone will send an offer that's not awful that will be accepted.


But ok, if you want to keep playing your sill game then fine, lets trade him for a 7th. I dont care what the return is at this point Duchene has to go.



But if we want to stop being silly, unless Sakic is so dumb at this job that he refuses every trade offer he gets this summer, the Avs will get a decent offer from a couple of teams that will be worth the trade for Duchene to move. Even if we dont get as much as any of the offers I suggested(Which I think we will easily get) then we take the best offer available and move on. If that offer turns out to be no more then a 7th round pick we still take it and move on. Obviously Duchene isn't half the player we thought he was in that circumstance that will never happen.

I just don't see the desperate need to move him at all costs. This "He quit on the team" narrative is almost 100% fan driven with no actual sources to back it up. Nobody within the locker room has leaked that he's a cancer. Quite the opposite, we know that he spent time helping JTC on taking faceoffs, so I don't know where the idea is coming from.

All people have to back that up is one quote where he says he is "open to" a trade, which he then follows by saying that it's part of the business and he has no control over it anyway. I hope Sakic has a LITTLE bit more inside knowledge about how the locker room works on his team than a bunch of angry fans on a message board.

 

[McMetal]

Just say Vegas won the first over pick at the lottery, and Avs won the second pick, would anyone trade Duchene to Vegas for their pick in what is classed a weaker draft?

We then draft both Patrick & Hischier?

No. Trading Duchene for a forward who likely will never reach his level is cringeworthy. Any trade involving him has to address our top 4 within a year at most.

 

[Balthazar]

Just say Vegas won the first over pick at the lottery, and Avs won the second pick, would anyone trade Duchene to Vegas for their pick in what is classed a weaker draft?

We then draft both Patrick & Hischier?

No way Vegas would trade a top 2 pick for Duchene. No chance in hell.

Yes, absolutely.

Now you're just being silly. I'd not trade Colborne for Seabrook. He's 32 and signed for 7 more years at ~7M cap hit.

 

[Cypher]

What concerns me is that the Avs haven't fired Tim Army yet. Their year end meetings have definitely wrapped up by now, so if he was going to be fired, it would have happened by now. Another year of Army and his special teams...

I assumed Bednar would stick around, and he would at minimum keep Pratt, but not making any changes in coaching is a head scratcher.

 

[shadow1]

No. Trading Duchene for a forward who likely will never reach his level is cringeworthy. Any trade involving him has to address our top 4 within a year at most.

You think neither of those guys will reach Duchene's level?

Not saying you're wrong, but Duchene's level isn't so spectacular. I wouldn't even call it a level.

 

[McMetal]

You think neither of those guys will reach Duchene's level?

Not saying you're wrong, but Duchene's level isn't so spectacular. I wouldn't even call it a level.

.73 career PPG is chopped liver? Come on now.

And no, neither of them is a lock to reach that level. Patrick's injury and compete level issues could hold him back, and I frankly don't think Hischier is going to be able to do what he does at the NHL level.

 

[tigervixxxen]

What concerns me is that the Avs haven't fired Tim Army yet. Their year end meetings have definitely wrapped up by now, so if he was going to be fired, it would have happened by now. Another year of Army and his special teams...

I assumed Bednar would stick around, and he would at minimum keep Pratt, but not making any changes in coaching is a head scratcher.

Do they publicly fire anyone? Or do they just disappear off the website? I dont think they are in a hurry to do anything. They might if they find someone else they like becomes available and we'll eventually see it on the website.

I wonder who gets to be our rep for the lottery. Probably Billington.

 

[shadow1]

.73 career PPG is chopped liver? Come on now.

And no, neither of them is a lock to reach that level. Patrick's injury and compete level issues could hold him back, and I frankly don't think Hischier is going to be able to do what he does at the NHL level.

That comes out to 59-60 points per year. That's solid, but it's not special. 42 guys did that (61+ points) this season (Duchene wasn't one of them).

 

[McMetal]

Do they publicly fire anyone? Or do they just disappear off the website? I dont think they are in a hurry to do anything. They might if they find someone else they like becomes available and we'll eventually see it on the website.

I wonder who gets to be our rep for the lottery. Probably Billington.

It's possible they're waiting for the playoffs to be over to see who might be available. Bowman said "major changes are coming" but also said Quenneville was staying, so maybe he'll fire an assistant in the coming days. That does seem like an unlikely scenario at this point though.

 

[Avs44]

It's possible they're waiting for the playoffs to be over to see who might be available. Bowman said "major changes are coming" but also said Quenneville was staying, so maybe he'll fire an assistant in the coming days. That does seem like an unlikely scenario at this point though.

The Hawks already fired their special teams assistant coach today. They moved quickly and efficiently.



Also...you don't wait for another team to fire their coach. Army isn't good enough, he should be fired no matter what. There has to be change. The fact he's still here is disgusting in my opinion.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's possible they're waiting for the playoffs to be over to see who might be available. Bowman said "major changes are coming" but also said Quenneville was staying, so maybe he'll fire an assistant in the coming days. That does seem like an unlikely scenario at this point though.

Didn't that already happen today?

 

[McMetal]

That comes out to 59-60 points per year. That's solid, but it's not special. 42 guys did that (61+ points) this season (Duchene wasn't one of them).

I mean, it's a given that all 42 of those players were on better teams this year, but whatever. If people are determined to make Duchene a scapegoat for all the things wrong with this team, I can't stop you. But if you think that moving him for whatever is going to solve our problems, you're not thinking clearly. I just hope Sakic is coming at this with a cooler head.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I mean, it's a given that all 42 of those players were on better teams this year, but whatever. If people are determined to make Duchene a scapegoat for all the things wrong with this team, I can't stop you. But if you think that moving him for whatever is going to solve our problems, you're not thinking clearly. I just hope Sakic is coming at this with a cooler head.

It's not that at all though.


Duchene has been here for 8 years now as the face of this team, and we've made playoffs all of 2 times in those 8 years and not once made it to the 2nd round.


In the last 2 years, Duchene has actively been in trade rumors basically form the start of the year all the way through. He made it abundantly clear this year that it has gotten to him, and that at this point he's open to the idea of a trade.


You cant just put a player in trade rumors and have talks on him for 2+ years just to not trade him. He has to be traded simply for that reason alone. It's beneficial to both sides that he move on.


Additionally, he's one of our most valuable trade chips and given the massive need we have for a Dman, he is the best piece we have to acquire that piece.


And finally, when you look at the age of the new core moving into this team. He simply doesn't fit it at all. He's 26 already and will be 27 in January of next year. The rest of our core(Mackinnon, Rantanen, Jost, Landeskog, Zadorov, Compher, Barrie, etc.) are all 23 or under with the only exceptions being Barrie and Landeskog who are 25 and 24 respectively. And quite frankly there's a reasonable chance Landeskog is moved out this summer or next at this point also.




So, it has absolutely nothing to do with the "Duchene quit on this team" narrative which quite frankly I dont really think is completely true either(Although I do think he played much worse the last half this year whether consciously or not).


It has to do with the direction this team is moving in, the youth movement that needs to happen, and the fact that our previous "core" has been a failure with Duchene being one of the only remaining pieces to that core(Stastny, and ROR were both a part of that as well, along with EJ and Varly) left who has lots of value around the league.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The most important factor of all...his contract. No more can they do the we'll cross the bridge when it comes act. They have to plan the end game strategy with these guys. Barrie too, but I understand we aren't ready to look behind that curtain.

 

[xbestboybandever]

That comes out to 59-60 points per year. That's solid, but it's not special. 42 guys did that (61+ points) this season (Duchene wasn't one of them).

Nor did Mackinnon, Landeskog, Barrie, Johnson, or Rantanen.

 

[shadow1]

I mean, it's a given that all 42 of those players were on better teams this year, but whatever. If people are determined to make Duchene a scapegoat for all the things wrong with this team, I can't stop you. But if you think that moving him for whatever is going to solve our problems, you're not thinking clearly. I just hope Sakic is coming at this with a cooler head.

Let's not make Duchene to be a martyr. He was a big part of the stink; 41 points, coming off the heels of his first 30 goal season.

Also, I don't see Duchene as a scapegoat, nor do I think moving him will solve a boatload of problems; in fact, the club will probably be worse (instantly).

But moving Duchene is logical. We basically know what he is as this point, and this team (should be) in for a rebuild.

 

[xbestboybandever]

Let's not make Duchene to be a martyr. He was a big part of the stink; 41 points, coming off the heels of his first 30 goal season.

Also, I don't see Duchene as a scapegoat, nor do I think moving him will solve a boatload of problems; in fact, the club will probably be worse (instantly).

But moving Duchene is logical. We basically know what he is as this point, and this team (should be) in for a rebuild.

Moving Duchene for a logical return makes sense, as it does with all players on this roster, but selling him to the "highest bid" no matter what is silly. If he is moved, he should be moved for a return that will help this team, not to move him because we should just get whatever we can.

 

[McMetal]

It's not that at all though.


Duchene has been here for 8 years now as the face of this team, and we've made playoffs all of 2 times in those 8 years and not once made it to the 2nd round.


In the last 2 years, Duchene has actively been in trade rumors basically form the start of the year all the way through. He made it abundantly clear this year that it has gotten to him, and that at this point he's open to the idea of a trade.


You cant just put a player in trade rumors and have talks on him for 2+ years just to not trade him. He has to be traded simply for that reason alone. It's beneficial to both sides that he move on.


Additionally, he's one of our most valuable trade chips and given the massive need we have for a Dman, he is the best piece we have to acquire that piece.


And finally, when you look at the age of the new core moving into this team. He simply doesn't fit it at all. He's 26 already and will be 27 in January of next year. The rest of our core(Mackinnon, Rantanen, Jost, Landeskog, Zadorov, Compher, Barrie, etc.) are all 23 or under with the only exceptions being Barrie and Landeskog who are 25 and 24 respectively. And quite frankly there's a reasonable chance Landeskog is moved out this summer or next at this point also.




So, it has absolutely nothing to do with the "Duchene quit on this team" narrative which quite frankly I dont really think is completely true either(Although I do think he played much worse the last half this year whether consciously or not).


It has to do with the direction this team is moving in, the youth movement that needs to happen, and the fact that our previous "core" has been a failure with Duchene being one of the only remaining pieces to that core(Stastny, and ROR were both a part of that as well, along with EJ and Varly) left who has lots of value around the league.

If he needs to be moved because he's our most valuable trade chip, why should we just accept whatever we can get for him? I understand that his age doesn't fit with the MacKinnon rebuild, and that moving him may be the best thing going forward, but we need to get that deal right. If Sakic lets himself get worked over in a trade just because another GM smells blood in the water, things will not get better. We are still an asset poor organization and we can't just throw them away.

Sakic showed at the TDL that he is not going to allow himself to be pressured into jumping at lowball offers. Hopefully, the rest of the league is on notice about that. He staked out his position at this point and backing down now would be losing, both short term on the deal and long term in any future deals.

And for the record, blaming the failure of the 2009 rebuild on Duchene is unbelievably narrow-minded. How about the fact that the org failed to draft well past the first round, or find a coach capable of baseline competence? Players like Crosby and McDavid can make a bad team relevant by sheer force of will. Duchene is not and never was supposed to be at that level, putting that on his shoulders is asinine.