Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XXVII|Crosby+MacK = Tim's Empire

[cgf]

So now not only he was sitting on his hands last summer but now he was paralyzed by cowardice of making a move? Wow you just hit the cream of the cream of assumptions with that right there.

Sakic has made mistakes and he will make others in the future. No GM is perfect. One thing I do like about him is he learns from his mistakes...usually anyway. We could be entering cap hell in a year or two if he had made some of the deals you wish he had made. Last season was not the right time to make big moves. We were just one season removed from a 48pt season. It could have been all smoke just like 13-14 season. He needed to make moves that were manageable and keep assessing the rest of the roster. At the TDL he had the same problem as we were in freefall. It was again not the right time to add big pieces to the roster. The way the team responded and they have been playing shows that this summer and most likely next TDL is the time to make substantial move. Let's see what he does and then I might come around your side.

I just figured if you weren't going to be reasonable so there could be a discussion and were only posting to amuse yourself, that I should return in kind and have some fun too. Or am I only allowed to misrepresent things & post my assumptions as fact if I'm kissing Joe's ass?

Could you name those guys you are talking about and the assests that you think it would have cost us to acquire them? Please don't say ROR and Skinner...they were never coming here. Same with Tavares, Perron and Van Riemsdyk. The last three and Skinner had specific places they wanted to go to and they did.

Nah, I'm good. Maybe if somebody else asks, but you'll just say dismiss any new names while scolding me for being the one who's making wild assumptions...

 

[Foppberg]

Free agency is a two way street... Doesn't work if the guy doesn't wanna sign here no matter the coin.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Agreed about 2014 still weighing heavily on Joe...but to me, that speaks ill of our FO's ability to determine what a winning foundation looks like in the modern NHL; rather than absolve them for their hesitation last summer. It's one thing for fans to take that kind of approach, but professionals are supposed to have expertise. Young teams that are going to ever arrive generally do so before "they're supposed to"...and with MacK's breakthrough and our blueline talent being much improved; we had a foundation that I see no reason the FO couldn't have seen was worth building on...so Joe shouldn't have gambled this season on Kerfoot, Jost & Compher becoming a legit 2nd line.

You can call this hindsight and people often do blame others for things that were only clear with hindsight, but there were a few of us arguing these same things last summer; after having argued that we shouldn't forget how much rebuilding we still had to do in 2009/2014. My position has not changed due to the results we've seen, so I'm not just preying on hindsight here...I may be a little more disappointed that he wasn't as proactive as I wanted after seeing the way the west has opened up for us and how pivotal ROR has been in pushing a division rival to the 2nd round of the playoffs, but this discussion started long before this season played out the way it did.

Binnington is probably a bigger reason for their turnaround than ROR not that I want to take anything away from ROR.

 

[cgf]

Free agency is a two way street... Doesn't work if the guy doesn't wanna sign here no matter the coin.

True, but fortunately for us, the trade front operates much more like a slave market.

 

[cgf]

Binnington is probably a bigger reason for their turnaround than ROR not that I want to take anything away from ROR.

True. I wasn't trying to say that ROR was singlehandedly carrying them or anything; just that he's thriving for a division rival who's made it as far as we have even though they probably wouldn't even be in the playoffs if ROR hadn't landed with them.

 

[Foppberg]

True, but fortunately for us, the trade front operates much more like a slave market.

True... But the guys available last summer would never come here. No point in crying about spoiled milk. Sakic better get somebody this offseason though.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I just figured if you weren't going to be reasonable so there could be a discussion and were only posting to amuse yourself, that I should return in kind and have some fun too. Or am I only allowed to misrepresent things & post my assumptions as fact if I'm kissing Joe's ass?


Nah, I'm good. Maybe if somebody else asks, but you'll just say dismiss any new names while scolding me for being the one who's making wild assumptions...

I guess I am not allowed to disagree with you.

I don't dismiss anything so say. You say something and I put out my argument if I disagree with it. I thought that was how a message board worked.

Or is it your way to sidestep my question because you really don't have any other names to mention besides the ones I listed? My only problem with your posts is that you keep coming back with the same "he sat on his hands" comment without bringing up any names that are really valid for your argument. You keep thinking I'm after you for some reason. Not at all. I like what you post usually and we agree on a lot actually. We disagree on the timing of it and the perception.

 

[cgf]

True... But the guys available last summer would never come here. No point in crying about spoiled milk. Sakic better get somebody this offseason though.

Oh how I wish LTC, MarkT, AllAboutAvs, Eagles, and everyone else who keeps bringing this topic back up from the other side would stop crying about spilled milk...but alas, they're so obsessed with defending Joe's every fart & attacking anyone who doesn't praise the smell, that they just can't seem to let this topic die

 

[cgf]

I guess I am not allowed to disagree with you.

I don't dismiss anything so say. You say something and I put out my argument if I disagree with it. I thought that was how a message board worked.

Or is it your way to sidestep my question because you really don't have any other names to mention besides the ones I listed? My only problem with your posts is that you keep coming back with the same "he sat on his hands" comment without bringing up any names that are really valid for your argument. You keep thinking I'm after you for some reason. Not at all. I like what you post usually and we agree on a lot actually. We disagree on the timing of it and the perception.

I've mentioned almost a dozen different top 6ers who moved or were on the block since last season ended excluding the Tavares & Skinners who we had no chance at; and you dismissed them all with little more than "because I said so". Are you surprised I have about as much desire to engage with you on this, again, as I do to rehash Barrie or Podkolzin with Patagonia?

You're a good poster, so I have no intention of putting you on ignore, but I'm just done with this getting into this topic with you. The summer will be here soon enough.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Oh how I wish LTC, MarkT, AllAboutAvs, Eagles, and everyone else who keeps bringing this topic back up from the other side would stop crying about spilled milk...but alas, they're so obsessed with defending Joe's every fart & attacking anyone who doesn't praise the smell, that they just can't seem to let this topic die

I'm sorry that is absolutely not true. Our post are always in response to a comment from one of your "camp" (usually you) stating that he sat on his hands or wasn't proactive enough. If you don't want to hear it then don't address it in the first place.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I've mentioned almost a dozen different top 6ers who moved or were on the block since last season ended excluding the Tavares & Skinners who we had no chance at; and you dismissed them all with little more than "because I said so". Are you surprised I have about as much desire to engage with you on this, again, as I do to rehash Barrie or Podkolzin with Patagonia?

You're a good poster, so I have no intention of ignoring you, but I'm just done with this topic with you.

Can you please provide a link of this because I have no recollection of this? I apologize in advance if you did and I missed it but I know the last couple of times I've asked you have answered the exact same way as this time. It makes me think you haven't answered my question but I might be wrong.

 

[cgf]

I'm sorry that is absolutely not true. Our post are always in response to a comment from one of your "camp" (usually you) stating that he sat on his hands or wasn't proactive enough. If you don't want to hear it then don't address it in the first place.

Sure

I started this discussion on this page like I always do...it definitely wasn't LTC taking a shot at us for "piss & moan(ing)"...definitely...

And when folks post about what an amazing job Sakic is doing, and how all of us should be grateful to have him; I suppose I am the one who starts this discussion by responding...

I throw plenty of shade Joe's way, but if you think your side's hands are clean you need to take off those rose-tinted glasses.

 

[cgf]

Can you please provide a link of this because I have no recollection of this? I apologize in advance if you did and I missed it but I know the last couple of times I've asked you have answered the exact same way as this time. It makes me think you haven't answered my question but I might be wrong.

I have no idea how to search specific threads for poster's posts, so I can't. But I can put a list together later, of guys who either moved at prices we could've afforded to beat or who were reportedly available that we could've afforded to bring in; who would have gone a long ways towards leaving Joe with a manageable workload for this upcoming summer & also bettered our chances of getting to the WCFs / SCFs given the way the west has played out this season.

Excluding the likes of Tavares & Skinner, who I agree we were never going to get, as well as Stastny & Stone, who picked Vegas over us.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Sure

I started this discussion on this page like I always do...it definitely wasn't LTC taking a shot at us for "piss & moan(ing)"...definitely...

And when folks post about what an amazing job Sakic is doing, and how all of us should be grateful to have him; I suppose I am the one who starts this discussion by responding...

I throw plenty of shade Joe's way, but if you think your side's hands are clean you need to take off those rose-tinted glasses.

Look at the following post: Rumor: - Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XXVII|Crosby+MacK = Tim's Empire
That's what started a response from MarkT, LTC and myself. I shouldn't have used the word "always". I'm sure some of us are at fault but I am sure the majority of the time it is in response to you guys.

 

[cgf]

Look at the following post: Rumor: - Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XXVII|Crosby+MacK = Tim's Empire
That's what started a response from MarkT, LTC and myself. I shouldn't have used the word "always". I'm sure some of us are at fault but I am sure the majority of the time it is in response to you guys.

If Avs44 throwing a little shade by saying that Joe "procrastinated" counts as antagonizing multiple pages of responses; then all I can say is that you would not believe the number of little jabs like that that we swallow from y'all without a peep

 

[jaisen73]

Free agency definitely involves where a player wants to go and there are so many factors... city preferences, desire to win vs. desire to get super paid, and, of course, money and cap space, etc.

I do think more top-end players will be attracted to the Avs this summer vs. last summer. It would be very easy, for example, for a Tavares last year (ignoring for a moment he clearly wanted to be a Maple Leaf) to look at Colorado have a terrible season in 2017 and then just barely making it in 2018 to not be able to see the long term upside and chance to win a Cup with the Avs. This summer a free agent can say "That team is well coached, they've got great pieces in place, good prospects coming in, etc." and at least be able to imagine going all the way in the next x # of years. If the Avs want to spend this summer they'll find interested players.

 

[Balthazar]

Free agency is a two way street... Doesn't work if the guy doesn't wanna sign here no matter the coin.

Exactly. Some people don't seem to understand that if your market isn't attractive, top UFA's won't come no matter what and lower end UFA's will want more term/money.

Q. "Why didn't Tavares/Panarin/other top FA sign here?"
A. Because their agent won't even answer Sakic's phone call.

Q. "Why did Calvert/Cole/UFA got so much money and term?"
A: Because otherwise they'd not come here.

It's not on Sakic, it's about having (and sometimes building) an attractive market.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

If Avs44 throwing a little shade by saying that Joe "procrastinated" counts as antagonizing multiple pages of responses; then all I can say is that you would not believe the number of little jabs like that that we swallow from y'all without a peep

Oh come on now...we get plenty of those little jabs from your side as well. No side is better than the other on that front.

 

[cgf]

Oh come on now...we get plenty of those little jabs from your side as well. No side is better than the other on that front.

No doubt neither side is perfectly innocent. But there's a holier-than-thou-ness that some on your side invoke against us that is by far the most aggravating thing about this discussion to me.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

No doubt neither side is perfectly innocent. But there's a holier-than-thou-ness that some on your side invoke against us that is by far the most aggravating thing about this discussion to me.

And again I'll say that both side are at fault on this as well. The fact that we have not been able to convince any of you guys that there is very little foundation on the "Sakic was not proactive" or "He sat on his hands" argument kinda proves that you have the same kind of people or your side. We are right and you are wrong kind of thinking here. That certainly looks like holier-than-thou to me as well.

Hopefully you are not including me in trade Barrie camp because I'm not in any of these camps yet. I'm in the "show me the results first" camp before I take a side. Or maybe you'll look at me like "you're not with us you are against us" lol.

 

[LTC Pain]

My post has nothing to do with Sakic's action or inaction. Rather how "armchair GMs" on this board are building expectations that Hayes will sign here. I've seen this before and it always rebounds negatively when fan expectations aren't met. More and more posters are making it out like it's inevitable that Hayes signs with the Avs this summer! Almost like a foregone conclusion, right? But it's not. And the rebound effect is if/when Hayes DOES NOT sign with us, all (or majority) of the posters building up the idea of Hayes signing will become unmercifully negative across this board. Much like a toddler throwing a (forum) fit because they didn't get what they wanted. I want the Avs to fix the 2nd line center and secondary scoring issues and win period. How, I'm not sure what path Super Joe will take?

 

[McMetal]

I won't be necessarily upset if Sakic doesn't get Hayes, I'm not convinced he's a true top six center, but we all agree that if not that, then SOMETHING has to be done about secondary scoring. Hayes is one of the best options in a sea of borderline top six UFAs.

Free agents are called free for a reason, so Sakic can't be blamed for not signing any particular free agent in question. What I worry about most is that he'll strike out on all his good options and instead take a swing for a bad one just so he can do something.

 

[Pokecheque]

Well, I still can't necessarily fault him for not being more aggressive on the FA front in the offseason, though I totally see the arguments in favor of that. This club is still in very, very good shape going forward. I fully expect a very aggressive offseason from Sakic, though there really isn't much out there.

 

[cgf]

And again I'll say that both side are at fault on this as well. The fact that we have not been able to convince any of you guys that there is very little foundation on the "Sakic was not proactive" or "He sat on his hands" argument kinda proves that you have the same kind of people or your side. We are right and you are wrong kind of thinking here. That certainly looks like holier-than-thou to me as well.

Hopefully you are not including me in trade Barrie camp because I'm not in any of these camps yet. I'm in the "show me the results first" camp before I take a side. Or maybe you'll look at me like "you're not with us you are against us" lol.

It's not about being right or wrong. I think Ivan is totally wrong about Podkolzin and he thinks the same of me about Pod & Byram, but I don't have the same issue there. But like I said, this will be resolved soon enough so whatevs.

And nah I don't think your position on Sakic and Barrie need to be connected. Some of the thinking that folks like IWantSakicAsMyGM use to justify being content with Sakic "staying patient" yet again this coming summer, is the same logic that the trade-Barrie camp use...so there's certainly a good bit of overlap...but nah, none of these camps are monoliths that require dogmatic adherence to core principles to be a part of.

PS - Remind me to send you that list tomorrow or tuesday, if I end up too lit to pump that out for ya tonight.

 

[avsfan09]

Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is a great way to make yourself feel better about never achieving anything. It lets you pat yourself on the back without having to risk succeeding

Just as patting yourself on the back for atleast having gone for it when it's just an excuse because you didn't exercise self control.