Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XXVII|Crosby+MacK = Tim's Empire

[avsfan09]

He could've acquired help for the second line via FA or the trade front, he had the capspace & surplus to get it done & didn't. Boom. No assumptions needed.

You still are making assumptions. You have no idea what was available for trade or FA so therefore saying he could have addressed it when you don't know what was tried and what options he even had is an assumption.

 

[Foppa2118]

No doubt neither side is perfectly innocent. But there's a holier-than-thou-ness that some on your side invoke against us that is by far the most aggravating thing about this discussion to me.

Not trying to jump into this conversation, but I feel like a lot of the topics here lately have an "us vs them" feel to them that's manufactured. It doesn't need to be the case.

I don't think most of the people in these conversations are really "Anti Sakic People" or "Pro Sakic People." I think that's pulling people too far to the extremes.

Same with "EJ People" vs "Barrie People." I don't know why that conversation always stems around the idea that they can only keep one. They don't play the same role. Makar won't play EJ's role either, even if he becomes the Avs #1D. If anything it would be EJ vs Zadorov/Cole.

"Keep Barrie People" vs "Trade Barrie People" is another false debate IMO. I don't think most people actually want to trade Barrie, they just acknowledge there will be a financial fight in the off season, and that may lead to a trade which can help the team in other areas. Everyone gets picked up and put in whichever "Keep Barrie" or "Trade Barrie" camp they think the other applies to, anytime the topic is brought up, and that just leads to the conversation devolving into accusing others of having extreme positions that very few actually have.

You can't have conversations this way. Nobody actually knows what each other thinks in these debates. Any point someone tries to make on either side just gets drowned out by the deafening wave of shouting in response, because they think it's an "us vs them" scenario.

 

[avsfan09]

I don't think anyone is saying that Joe didn't make any calls or do his basic due diligence...but there have been too many guys who have moved or been available via trade, whom we had the assets to acquire but didn't end up acquiring; for the "what if no one wanted to join us in FA" excuses not to ring hollow.

This is a team that needs 3 top 6ers and Joe didn't add a one; not last summer, not when this season started going off the rails, and not at the TDL when we had pulled out of our tailspin and were clawing our way back into the playoffs. To me, that points to a GM deciding that the prices weren't worth pulling the trigger on, not that there weren't triggers to pull; even if we're going exclusively based off of what's been reported...and let's just say that I don't trust Joe's judgment on big moves for the reasons I've listed on each of the previous pages in this thread

Who do you think was available through trade? Your saying things but not explaining what exactly he missed. Like your skirting the edges.

 

[Patagonia]

I've mentioned almost a dozen different top 6ers who moved or were on the block since last season ended excluding the Tavares & Skinners who we had no chance at; and you dismissed them all with little more than "because I said so". Are you surprised I have about as much desire to engage with you on this, again, as I do to rehash Barrie or Podkolzin with Patagonia?

You're a good poster, so I have no intention of putting you on ignore, but I'm just done with this getting into this topic with you. The summer will be here soon enough.

I really don’t understand you’re constant complaints on Sakic. You criticize me on trade Barrie and draft Podkolzin. Irrespective of my reasoning which you ignore, you have little to any evidence on Sakic.

Don’t you ever consider the huge returns on O’Reilly and Duchene might be a deterrent to not deal with the AVs? What about destinations which is not the most favourable? Tavares, JVR and Skinner had no interest. Panarin or Bobrovsky are staying or heading to warmer climates. Hanifin or Hamonic we’re not interested.

Sometimes doing nothing might be the best strategy.

Sakic became GM on 2013, let’s look at his efforts and ignore the players drafted with the AVs pick:

Trades:
Zadorov
Compher
Greer
Girard
Kamenev
Bowers
Sens 2019-1st + 3rd
Annunen
Zhuravlyov
Ghetto
Barberio
Graves
Grub
Brassard

UFA or Waivers
Soda
Nieto
Bourque
Kerfoot
Cole
Calvert
Dries
Toninato
Dickinson
Lewis
O’Connor
Nemeth
Francouz
Alt

So nearly the entire lineup has been changed in only 6 years. The carryovers or drafted:

Mackinnon
Rants
Landy
Barrie
EJ
Varly
Kaut
Jost

Explain that Sakic did nothing?

 

[avsfan09]

Oh how I wish LTC, MarkT, AllAboutAvs, Eagles, and everyone else who keeps bringing this topic back up from the other side would stop crying about spilled milk...but alas, they're so obsessed with defending Joe's every fart & attacking anyone who doesn't praise the smell, that they just can't seem to let this topic die

It's less about defending Sakic. More about getting annoyed with hearing you assume he's going to make future mistakes when you have to let it play out first. As of now Sakic has set the team up well with assets and prospects. Aswell as with contracts and space. Our young leaders are all trending up. Just seems like your prematurely acting like the sky is falling when we should be rejoicing about how much potential this roster has for the first time really since the glory years almost 20 years agoe

 

[Rumplesnipeskin]

I can almost guarantee we have gone from a bottom half to top half free agent market in the last 12-18 months. Of course no one wanted to come to CO, if they were an upper tier free agent. And that leaves a proverbial field of land mines left over to sign. The safest bets, known commodities, were players like a Cole and Calvert, and they also wanted to be in CO. Much better to go with the sure bet, rather than taking a chance only to add dead weight.

Sakic hasn’t been perfect, but these assumptions that he hasn’t gone after these top free agents are unfounded (as is speculation that he has). I might suggest we look at the list of top-tier free agents we were rumored to be in on over the past 2 years, where they ended up, and if there is any correlation. Hopefully We can all agree Sakic has done pretty well on the trade front, so let’s isolate the major point of contention - UFA

 

[the_fan]

I was also hard on Sakic for not making more trades and stuff, but when you think about it, his plan is to build a winning team that will be a contender for many years not just few years, that's why he's not making crazy trades or signs bunch of UFA's to crazy contracts

 

[Goulet17]

What players/prospects from Columbus will we look at acquiring this off season?

 

[avsfan09]

I won't be necessarily upset if Sakic doesn't get Hayes, I'm not convinced he's a true top six center, but we all agree that if not that, then SOMETHING has to be done about secondary scoring. Hayes is one of the best options in a sea of borderline top six UFAs.

Free agents are called free for a reason, so Sakic can't be blamed for not signing any particular free agent in question. What I worry about most is that he'll strike out on all his good options and instead take a swing for a bad one just so he can do something.

I'd prefer if he does go after FA forward help to go after a wing and work a trade for a younger 2c. The wingers seem like they'll come cheaper and add more anyways atleast talent wise.

 

[avsfan09]

What players/prospects from Columbus will we look at acquiring this off season?

Panarin

 

[ljb4]

Sakic could have out bid Calgary for Neal and ended up with Lucic 2.o. It is easy in hindsight to see the good players that he could have brought in.

 

[shadow1]

Colorado did need secondary scoring help last summer - there's no debate.

But, to beat this dead horse one more time: the secondary scoring problem is so glaring right now due to the abysmal efforts of Alex Kerfoot and Carl Soderberg, who have (2) assists between them this post-season.

 

[Patagonia]

What players/prospects from Columbus will we look at acquiring this off season?

Wennberg - 2C has struggled the last few seasons and has been frequently scratched during the playoffs. He has 4 remaining seasons at $4.9M. Only 24 years old 6’02 @ 200 lbs former 1st round pick.

Could be had for very little as they consider him a bust and might want to dump his contract.

Maybe Offer: Kerfoot + 3rd

 

[Miri]

Panarin

alongside Duchene :-P

I guess if any of it was true, it would be the first time i would be excited to get ex-Jackets player. Nothing against Calvert, Brassard and co.,..

 

[flyfysher]

I was also hard on Sakic for not making more trades and stuff, but when you think about it, his plan is to build a winning team that will be a contender for many years not just few years, that's why he's not making crazy trades or signs bunch of UFA's to crazy contracts

Since Roy left, Sakic has emphasized youth, skill and speed on the top end and grit and scoring ability on the lower end. He looks for value in lower tier FAs like Wilson, Calvert and Soderberg as well as cap management. Sakic is willing to trade the marquee players if he can't sign them for what he views as a reasonable deal for the market at the time (that means not overestimating how high the cap will be) and ensuring he gets value even if he has to wait forever. I think he values loyalty to the organization as well as having a very close knit team. He is willing to draft for need but does not expect the player to step in immediately. So with that said, I think he's going to look to upgrade by drafting someone like Turcotte or Cozens. If he can also draft a high end G then I think he will because it's a bigger organizational need over the long term. I'd love to get Panarin but if that happened then I'd be very surprised. Seems like something Bowman would do and not Sakic.

 

[ABasin]

Wennberg - 2C has struggled the last few seasons and has been frequently scratched during the playoffs. He has 4 remaining seasons at $4.9M. Only 24 years old 6’02 @ 200 lbs former 1st round pick.

Could be had for very little as they consider him a bust and might want to dump his contract.

Maybe Offer: Kerfoot + 3rd

I think we throw in Girard. Perhaps a 2020 2nd as well.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

I think we throw in Girard. Perhaps a 2021 2nd.

Only if they throw in Dubinsky.

 

[ABasin]

We can only hope.

Saddling ourselves with that near $5m healthy scratch would be a disaster.

Yeah, 2g in his past 82 games - making Lucic look like a bargain.

 

[MarkT]

To be clear, I didn't bring up the topic of whether Sakic sat on his hands or not. I only made my initial reply when I had seen several different people over several pages make variations on the same comment. And what made me want to reply is in every case it wasn't an argument being made - it was a statement of fact as if it's obvious and widely accepted that he sat on his hands/was cowardly/procrastinated/was sleeping etc etc..

And honestly, there's no need for it. We can (I think) all find agreement on the fact that he needs to make moves this offseason. There's no need to take a shot at his performance last offseason every time the discussion is about what moves he should make now.

If you want to actually have that debate (was he effective last offseason or not), then great, let's have that debate - but if you're going to argue he should have made moves, it's on you to lay out *which* moves he should have made and why you think those moves are realistic and intelligent moves to make. If you can't do that then you're not really presenting any evidence to back up your claims. That's why these arguments go on until people get frustrated. If no evidence is presented it's just opinions going back and forth with no end.

 

[Avsavsavsavsavs]

Look at where we were when the trade deadline happened. Sure we had a great start and end to the season but we'd be preaching the tune a little differently if he went out and traded futures for rentals and we didn't make the playoffs. I don't blame him for not signing anyone, we've said it all season long our window basically starts next season. It's frustrating knowing that this may be one of the "easier" roads to a SCF in recent memory, but I agree with Sakics patience this time around. I will be quick to bitch if nothing is done in the offseason or by the deadline next year to solve our complete lack of a 2nd line problem though.

 

[Spleenless Wonder21]

Sakic could have out bid Calgary for Neal and ended up with Lucic 2.o. It is easy in hindsight to see the good players that he could have brought in.

I’m alright with not signing him, but, I think Neal would’ve fared better with Colorado, at least for this & next season.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I’m alright with not signing him, but, I think Neal would’ve fared better with Colorado, at least for this & next season.

Maybe, maybe not. We'll never know. However to find that out, because he chose CAL over us, it means we would have had to pay him at least .5M more per year (so 6.35M) for 5 yrs or pay him the same as he got (5.75M) but give an extra year (so 6 yrs) or a combination of both if that still wasn't enough to entice im to come here. Would you have been comfortable with that? I certainly would have not.

Neal is actually a very good example of what we are talking about when we say that most likely Sakic tried to catch a bigger fish in FA to fix our 2nd line but at one point he needed to back off or he ends up with a Lucic 2.0 contract. Now I really hope nobody wants that. When you are looking at that last piece to push you over the top to win a SC you can overpay to make it happened but last summer and at the last TDL we were still far from that point especially after the two terrible months we just had (Dec and Jan). Although he didn't do much at the TDL I'm sure Sakic feels that the team is actually a lot closer to contending that he thought it was a few months ago. This summer and the next TDL is the time to start making bigger moves but it is still important that he doesn't overpay too much or that window will be very short indeed.

I expect Sakic to add one top-6 Fwd this summer, re-assess where we stand at the TDL and then make another big move if it looks we have a chance to go all the way. If not he will not want to waste future so he will wait until the next summer to finalize his plan IMO.

 

[Metallo]

Wennberg - 2C has struggled the last few seasons and has been frequently scratched during the playoffs. He has 4 remaining seasons at $4.9M. Only 24 years old 6’02 @ 200 lbs former 1st round pick.

Could be had for very little as they consider him a bust and might want to dump his contract.

Maybe Offer: Kerfoot + 3rd

Taking on Wennberg would be a gamble at this point as he’s closing in on cap dump status.

We want to get rid of headache Kerfoot, not get a new headache.

Trade Kerfoot for a pick to a low-scoring bottom feeder. Work the UFA market to get a bettter replacement.

 

[flyfysher]

Dumb question, where does Shane Bowers fit into the line up and how soon, if ever, could we expect him in the line up? Kamenev would be the 4C, right?

 

[ljb4]

Dumb question, where does Shane Bowers fit into the line up and how soon, if ever, could we expect him in the line up? Kamenev would be the 4C, right?

I expect Bowers to get the Compher treatment. Start with the Eagles and be a call-up option around mid-season if he performs well.