Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XVII| Are We Sellers?

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The Abusement Park

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Stone is very interesting. He is undoubtedly elite and makes those around him better, he would carry any line he is on. The benefits are there.

What acquiring Stone does is 2 things. He makes the Avs FAR more dangerous in the next 3-4 years, however after that with his likely decline with age and large contract he will cause the Avs issues making them less competitive there after. So the question is do you think that is a worth while trade off, or which of the 2 is more likely to win you a cup?

Some points against him is that him and Rants will likely be above 20m in 2 RWs, which is a ton of cap % in what is generally the weakest position to put that money towards. RW is also not as big of a position of need for the Avs. Also if Kaut ends up being a true top 6 forward then the signing is possibly a mistake as you now have redundancy at the position which almost always ends in a player being traded away to fill issues elsewhere and by the time that happens you are usually trading away the player you would have rather kept.

Finally should the Avs get KK all of this is moot as the signing wouldn't happen.

I think Stone is interesting with good merit on both sides. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

I mean a lot of what we do this summer is dictated on where that Ottawa pick lands. So depending on where it lands would affect who we go for. If we get Hughes than Stone would be the perfect vet wing that can ease him into the nhl. If we Kakko that could change if we go after stone or not.
 

cgf

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Fair enough, but then if Sakic does think proactively this summer, this will alleviate a lot of your concerns?
Yup. If Sakic nails it this summer by proactively making it happen for us...rather than just lucking into a top 2 pick & a star FA happening to choose us...I'll have no significant gripes with him. Even if, on some level, I'll still be a little anxious about how resistant to action he typically is & how that meshes with us likely needing some minor tweaks along the way even once we have that cup caliber foundation in place.

I get those who think that wasting this season as well, is also a mistake, but with the Expansion Draft looming -- creating an incentive for us to wait on Makar & Kaut until next season -- and us only having to wait a few more months to see how cool the lotto gods decide to be; things seem to line up for us to wait this 1 last season out. Before it making the most sense for us to rip our window open starting next year, so we can make our trial run in the playoffs next year & still have 3 seasons of MacK's sweet deal to work with.
 
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Foppberg

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Yup. If Sakic nails it this summer by proactively making it happen for us...rather than just lucking into a top 2 pick & a star FA happening to choose us...I'll have no significant gripes with him. Even if, on some level, I'll still be a little anxious about how resistant to action he typically is & how that meshes with us likely needing some minor tweaks along the way even once we have that cup caliber foundation in place.

I get those who think that wasting this season as well, is also a mistake, but with the Expansion Draft looming -- creating an incentive for us to wait on Makar & Kaut until next season -- and us only having to wait a few more months to see how cool the lotto gods decide to be; things seem to line up for us to wait this 1 last season out. Before it making the most sense for us to rip our window open starting next year, so we can make our trial run in the playoffs next year & still have 3 seasons of MacK's sweet deal to work with.

That rarely ever happens... you don't just luck into a star FA signing with you.

Let's just said for example we get a top 5 pick, and Stone signs with us. I think we would still need to go out and get another top 6er, along with maybe another D, or make a trade for a goalie.

My "dream" situation for the next 8 months would be starting September with Stone, Hayes, and maybe a guy like Nyqvist. If Sakic has an offseason like that, MacKinnon isn't going anywhere. And for sure he'll be doing some calling too.
 

CB Joe

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That rarely ever happens... you don't just luck into a star FA signing with you.

Let's just said for example we get a top 5 pick, and Stone signs with us. I think we would still need to go out and get another top 6er, along with maybe another D, or make a trade for a goalie.

My "dream" situation for the next 8 months would be starting September with Stone, Hayes, and maybe a guy like Nyqvist. If Sakic has an offseason like that, MacKinnon isn't going anywhere. And for sure he'll be doing some calling too.
Stone, Hayes, and Nyqvist? How does that work with the salary cap
 

Foppa2118

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Yup. If Sakic nails it this summer by proactively making it happen for us...rather than just lucking into a top 2 pick & a star FA happening to choose us...I'll have no significant gripes with him. Even if, on some level, I'll still be a little anxious about how resistant to action he typically is & how that meshes with us likely needing some minor tweaks along the way even once we have that cup caliber foundation in place.

I get those who think that wasting this season as well, is also a mistake, but with the Expansion Draft looming -- creating an incentive for us to wait on Makar & Kaut until next season -- and us only having to wait a few more months to see how cool the lotto gods decide to be; things seem to line up for us to wait this 1 last season out. Before it making the most sense for us to rip our window open starting next year, so we can make our trial run in the playoffs next year & still have 3 seasons of MacK's sweet deal to work with.

Well come on now, that's not quite fair. He still has to get a FA to sign, he's not just getting lucky. The only thing that should matter is that we brought in a good player or two.

Sakic is patient but when he deems it's time to make a move he does it. He's made two blockbuster trades of ROR and Duchene. He's given fairly big deals to Iginla, Beauchemin, and Cole. He gave up assets and shelled out a decent sized deal for a good #2G in Grubauer. He's traded his good buddy Tanguay for a deadline rental. He's added 3rd string goalies at the deadline (unnecessarily IMO). He's bought out struggling players instead of keeping them. He's traded struggling prospects for other prospects, and at least so far it's worked out ok with one in Graves.

He's a lot more proactive than I think you're giving him credit for. He was just patient early in his tenure because he didn't like the offers for guys like ROR and Duchene, and the last couple years because he's been evaluating his young players, and waiting for this off season to see what the Sens pick turns into, and when the UFA options should be better.
 
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Iceberg

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Yup. If Sakic nails it this summer by proactively making it happen for us...rather than just lucking into a top 2 pick & a star FA happening to choose us...I'll have no significant gripes with him. Even if, on some level, I'll still be a little anxious about how resistant to action he typically is & how that meshes with us likely needing some minor tweaks along the way even once we have that cup caliber foundation in place.

I get those who think that wasting this season as well, is also a mistake, but with the Expansion Draft looming -- creating an incentive for us to wait on Makar & Kaut until next season -- and us only having to wait a few more months to see how cool the lotto gods decide to be; things seem to line up for us to wait this 1 last season out. Before it making the most sense for us to rip our window open starting next year, so we can make our trial run in the playoffs next year & still have 3 seasons of MacK's sweet deal to work with.

Impressive how you are a lot more composed since Neymar.
 
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Pokecheque

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When they traded for Stepan and HJ. Not that the trades weren't worth it or didn't help them but that they didn't align well with what they were doing at the time. Especially giving up the 9th(?) OA pick

Oh, I don't think that was "win now," they were still using dead contracts to circumvent the salary floor. I'm sure they wanted to jumpstart the process and be more competitive, but they weren't "going for it" by any means. In hindsight they really should've just kept the damn pick. I like Stepan but he wasn't worth THAT much (it was actually the 7th overall pick). They would've been better off just keeping the damn pick, even though I have reservations about the player the Rangers eventually picked (Lias Andersson).

That does bring up another issue--Barroway. I don't know how much control he has or how much pressure he's exerting on Chayka to do things, but he's caused a ton of upheaval in AZ and is now trying to cut and run. That's why I don't think AZ or FLA will ever be successful until those franchises find ownership in markets that can offer more financial stability, as in, places other than where they're located.
 

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@Meeqs. Kaut has been moved to LW in the AHL to help him get going and he admitted himself that it did. I suspect that he will remain there once he comes up so getting Kakko or Stone would not be a problem.

It is very possible that Sakic is patient to see where the OTT pick lands. If the pick is high enough to assure us a C than they can trade for a W, if we are lined up to get a W than we can trade for C. That means he has to wait until after the season to make a deal and I'm OK with that.
 

S E P H

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Bura fits Sakics long term comments the most, and he has fallen out of favor, but I just don't know if he is going to be that 2nd line winger that the Avs need. If he comes at a cheap price sure but I would not want to pay for a maybe.

Burakovsky is intriguing, but as I said on twitter earlier, it would have to be a swap and I don't see the Caps being interested. You wouldn't pay up something of real value there.
Please no to Burakovsky, one of my really good friends is a Caps fan and I convinced him that he's a terrible player. Don't think I flat out hate him because I don't, he has good hands and speed, but holy cow that's all he has. He is an idiot with the puck, shot accuracy is pure trash, and tries to dangle every play with the puck. He's Jordan Eberle 2.0, but he might not even be as good as him. Huge pass, I much rather of went after Johansson from them before he got into some concussion problems.
 

cgf

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That rarely ever happens... you don't just luck into a star FA signing with you.

Let's just said for example we get a top 5 pick, and Stone signs with us. I think we would still need to go out and get another top 6er, along with maybe another D, or make a trade for a goalie.

My "dream" situation for the next 8 months would be starting September with Stone, Hayes, and maybe a guy like Nyqvist. If Sakic has an offseason like that, MacKinnon isn't going anywhere. And for sure he'll be doing some calling too.

That depends on whether we'd get Hughes/Kakko or not. Put Hughes & Stone next to Jost / Kaut / Compher, and all we'd really need is a resolution to the goalie situation if Frank isn't it, as Stone could carry that line well enough for us to win a series or two in 2019-2020...which would set us up to start contending for realsies the following season; when Hughes should start becoming a reliable gamechanger. If instead of Hughes we got Cozens / Dach / Turcotte with that pick, then yeah; we'd need another top 6er, at least until that prospect was ready to be a difference maker.

Which is why I hope that Sakic is at least kicking the tires on a potential trade for a guy like Tarasenko / Hall / Larkin / Zibanejad / Schenn...Drae & Radu...already. If only to lay some of the groundwork for an offseason trade, when we would know exactly what that OTT pick could bring. On top of reaching out to pending FAs who could help us; be it a star that we could anchor a scoring line around (Panarin / Stone / Dutchy) or guys who could help us build a 2nd great line should we land a star in the lottery, FA or via trade...guys like Hayes or Silfverberg.


Which is why I'd be absolutely thrilled if we could snag someone like Zibanejad before his NTC kicks in; using some iteration of our 1st + an A-future (Timmins?) + a B-future (COL 2nd/OTT 3rd/Morrison?)...maybe even my beloved Greer; if we're never going to give him a real shot. Cover ourselves at Center regardless of where the OTT pick lands, how long it takes the prospect we get with that pick to develop, or how well we recruit in FA. While still keeping the OTT pick + enough capspace with which to sign one of the stars or a good-but-not-star-FA (like Silfvy)...if MacK has better luck recruiting this summer...to put on Zibby's wing opposite one of Jost / Kaut / Compher / OTT 1st.
Well come on now, that's not quite fair. He still has to get a FA to sign, he's not just getting lucky. The only thing that should matter is that we brought in a good player or two.

Sakic is patient but when he deems it's time to make a move he does it. He's made two blockbuster trades of ROR and Duchene. He's given fairly big deals to Iginla, Beauchemin, and Cole. He gave up assets and shelled out a decent sized deal for a good #2G in Grubauer. He's traded his good buddy Tanguay for a deadline rental. He's added 3rd string goalies at the deadline (unnecessarily IMO). He's bought out struggling players instead of keeping them. He's traded struggling prospects for other prospects, and at least so far it's worked out ok with one in Graves.

He's a lot more proactive than I think you're giving him credit for. He was just patient early in his tenure because he didn't like the offers for guys like ROR and Duchene, and the last couple years because he's been evaluating his young players, and waiting for this off season to see what the Sens pick turns into, and when the UFA options should be better.

I know that recruiting is tricky, I was just being a little facetious & used that hyperbole to give an example of one of the only situations where I wouldn't give Joe all that much credit for putting together a serious contender that fit my desired timeline.


Is it when he deems it is time to act, or when circumstances have forced him to act? That question is what worries me. There was no sitting on ROR any longer, and the clock was ticking fast with Duchene too. He's been less stingy with his 2nd tier assets & capspace...but on the big things, which have the potential to really burn him, he has been almost trigger-shy. Plus we have to keep in mind what Roy's part in all of that was...which is why I think it's informative to contrast Joe's process post-Patty, with the way he operated when still a member of Roykic.

It's fair to point out that he's a lot more active with the smaller stuff that doesn't risk anything major...but those aren't the kind of changes we'll need if we don't get Hughes / Kakko / Panarin / Stone. Although reminding me of all that, does alleviate some of my concerns about him being too passive to make those final minor tweaks even if we did put a cup caliber core together...at least as long as those final touches carry relatively minor pricetags & risk...


I'm not calling for his head or anything...yet...but if we don't enter next season with significant reinforcements, I'll start to criticize him much more sharply.
 
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UncleRisto

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That depends on whether we'd get Hughes/Kakko or not. Put Hughes & Stone next to Jost / Kaut / Compher, and all we'd really need is a resolution to the goalie situation if Frank isn't it, as Stone could carry that line well enough for us to win a series or two in 2019-2020...which would set us up to start contending for realsies the following season; when Hughes should start becoming a reliable gamechanger. If instead of Hughes we got Cozens / Dach / Turcotte with that pick, then yeah; we'd need another top 6er, at least until that prospect was ready to be a difference maker.

Which is why I hope that Sakic is at least kicking the tires on a potential trade for a guy like Tarasenko / Hall / Larkin / Zibanejad / Schenn...Drae & Radu...already. If only to lay some of the groundwork for an offseason trade, when we would know exactly what that OTT pick could bring. On top of reaching out to pending FAs who could help us; be it a star that we could anchor a scoring line around (Panarin / Stone / Dutchy) or guys who could help us build a 2nd great line should we land a star in the lottery, FA or via trade...guys like Hayes or Silfverberg.


Which is why I'd be absolutely thrilled if we could snag someone like Zibanejad before his NTC kicks in; using some iteration of our 1st + an A-future (Timmins?) + a B-future (COL 2nd/OTT 3rd/Morrison?)...maybe even my beloved Greer; if we're never going to give him a real shot. Cover ourselves at Center regardless of where the OTT pick lands, how long it takes the prospect we get with that pick to develop, or how well we recruit in FA. While still keeping the OTT pick + enough capspace with which to sign one of the stars if MacK has better luck recruiting this summer...or a good-but-not-star-FAs, like Silfvy...to put on Zibby's wing opposite Jost / Kaut / Compher / OTT 1st.
Who's "Dutchy"?
 

Avs425

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Varly, Wilson, Nemeth, Barbs all coming off the books. Plus we already have a ton of cap space as it is. It'd be doable.
Barbs still has one more year after this season but his cap hits isn't much. Orpiks buyout cap also drops by a mill next year to i think.
 

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Arizona is at the 50 contract limit.

Still not sure what to think of Chayka. On one hand he's parlayed weaponized cap space into some decent returns. On the other hand, I think he's moved a lot of stuff around and it hasn't had a discernible improvement on their fortunes. It's unfortunate they've had absolute **** luck with injuries but I just don't know exactly what the plan or vision is there.
MONEYPUCK!

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Iracundia

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You realize that this is an argument against just sitting on our hands & banking on the draft to fix all of our problems...right?
I should have provided some context with that. My point was it was the Pracey years that failed to provide the depth we need now. I'm a little more optimistic about Hepple improving upon that. Seeing multiple picks play in the WJC over the past 2 seasons has renewed my hope that this team can draft some useful players beyond the 1st round.

And I'm not advocating for us to just draft our way out of the rebuild, far from it. I want to Sakic to make trades or sign premium UFAs if we need to but "only after" we know who we are getting with the Ott 1st.
 

Balthazar

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This guy might be available? :sarcasm:


I like Cody as a person, he's a good guy and IMO it's phenomenal that he still has a job in the NHL to this day even if almost all the other players like him are gone. However I think it's coming to an end real fast.
 
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