Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XVII| Are We Sellers?

Discussion in 'Colorado Avalanche' started by SoundwaveIsCharisma, Jan 4, 2019.

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  1. Pierce Hawthorne

    Pierce Hawthorne Formerly Avsare1

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    God I would love for this to happen.


    Grubs would have a lot of interest around the league. Philly, Carolina, New York. All these teams were interested in him before and none have really solved the goaltending issues today.


    I think we could get a 2nd back for him. Then move Varly to whatever other team doesn't get Grubauer. And the whole time we work those two trades be negotiating with LA for Quick and Toffoli using some of the assets we get from Grubs/Varly.


    Roll with Quick and Francouz and at Toffoli for secondary scoring.


    Itd be extremely savvy from Sakic, perhaps to savvy for him to pull off.
     
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  2. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    Who knows what we’ll need by the time Cozens is ready to Center a cup winning scoring line *shrug*
     
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  3. Iceberg

    Iceberg Registered User

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    Kerfoot, Jost, Guetto and Nemeth were part of the team last year, they were not brought in to fix things, they were aready there. And Sakic wasn't expecting this team to be much better than this, he chose to "stay the course".

    Now that Jost and Kerfoot have not taken the next step i suspect the aproach we'll be different this year.

    And you can use that Neymar picture from yesterday for now.
     
  4. Meeqs

    Meeqs Registered User

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    That line is already sheltered offensively as is. A guy like Hughes, Cozens, Dach should be in the NHL the year after next and be competing in 3 years. The point is that they are all very likely to become strong 2c's for the long term and should be slotted in as such should the Avs get them. Young players like Barzal, EP, Marners, etc are making impacts younger and younger so its not crazy to think they will do the same in a very sheltered role with good linemates. It doesn't take talented players long to make an impact anymore once they make it (at least for top 3-5 guys).

    The longer you go out you worry less about the 2c but more about how Soda will hold up, there are a lot of options to replace what he will lose but that'll need to be decided. Hence why I suggested possibly looking at middle 6 depth to insulate such transitions could be reasonable.
     
  5. lonelybadger

    lonelybadger Registered User

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  6. Foppberg

    Foppberg Registered User Sponsor

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    Blockbuster
     
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  7. Iceberg

    Iceberg Registered User

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    It took a long holdout from Nylander to get more than he actually deserved. Dubas caved.
     
  8. Pokecheque

    Pokecheque armoredheadspace Sponsor

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    Arizona is at the 50 contract limit.

    Still not sure what to think of Chayka. On one hand he's parlayed weaponized cap space into some decent returns. On the other hand, I think he's moved a lot of stuff around and it hasn't had a discernible improvement on their fortunes. It's unfortunate they've had absolute **** luck with injuries but I just don't know exactly what the plan or vision is there.
     
  9. The Abusement Park

    The Abusement Park Registered User

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    A top pairing D. Makar won’t be one his first year, EJ looks to be regressing a little bit, Zads isn’t consistent enough. But the true needs are a legit 2nd line. Well need at least 2 top 6 guys at leas imo.
     
  10. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    I've bolded the key part of your post. Cozens / Dach / Turcotte being ready to center a cup caliber scoring line in their draft+3 season would give us exactly 1 shot at contending before we need to able to convince MacK to sign an extension. And that is a much bigger risk than I am comfortable with...a is banking on the specific kid we draft become one of those exceptions who's ready early, which is why we should be proactive & open our window well before the 2021-2022 season.
    Right, and they had shown that they were insufficient for the role Sakic was banking on them growing into. Either that or he had no intentions of the team making any progress this season, which would be even more of an indictment...although I don't think it's one he's actually guilty of.

    Why would you suspect that Sakic will suddenly break character?

    Kk
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  11. The Abusement Park

    The Abusement Park Registered User

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    I don’t think he truly has a plan or hasn’t implemented it if he has one. I don’t really know what kind of team they’re supposed to be. Seems like he’s shuffling the chairs around and hoping they get better some how.
     
  12. Foppberg

    Foppberg Registered User Sponsor

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    Chayka is a real life NHL 18 Be A GM mode player.
     
  13. Foppa2118

    Foppa2118 Waingro

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    CGF, I get the concern, but your whole premise is based around "a team that failed to put a contender around him" as you put it. That's not a strict definition. It's somewhat subjective and there's simply no way of knowing what will happen in the next five years.

    All the evidence says they're trending upwards, that they have some help in the system on the way, and will very likely get more help this off season through the draft, UFA, and possibly trade.

    Who are all these star players that have walked as UFAs because they didn't win anyway?

    Stamkos? Joe Thornton? Blake Wheeler? Lundqvist? Brent Burns? They've all re-signed when they could have left as UFA's. Even EK probably would have stayed with Ottawa if his owner wasn't crazy, and he didn't have that drama with Hoffman.

    Even lesser players like OEL, Couture, Vlassic, Shane Doan, and Giordano. They've all resigned instead of hitting UFA.

    The only star player of Nate's caliber to leave recently is Tavares, and that was an entirely different situation. Toronto was his hometown team, they offered him a boatload of money, and the Islanders are clown show that keeps relocating.

    The Isles missed the playoffs 17 times out of the last 23 seasons. They’ve made it past the first round once in the last 24 years, and they only won one game.

    If the Avs keep missing the playoffs, or losing badly in the first round, then it’s a concern, but how can we make any sort of educated guess on whether they’ll miss the playoffs or make it to the Western finals the next five years? We simply can’t, so why should we be so afraid of something like that?

    The main reason star players leave as UFA's is either money, the team is rebuilding, or to play for a hometown team. Nate doesn't have a hometown team in the NHL, and at the draft his Uncle said as a kid he wanted to play with Sakic on the Avs.

    If they pay Nate what he's worth, and they're a competitive team, he has every reason in the world to re-sign. Competitiveness can change on a dime in this new NHL, and Nate saw first hand how playing a grass is greener game can backfire with Duchene.
     
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  14. Meeqs

    Meeqs Registered User

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    If you are going to be that deep I don't think a high end 1st pairing that that important honestly. You have guys who have all the tools and as the forward core get better that will also help a ton. At least when it comes to skill sets each of the 6 guys has everything accounted for and if you could balance out the minutes that gets really scary. Most teams need good top lines to play them 25 minutes and to hide their weaker 3rd lines, but if our 3rd pairing is Timmins and Cole I don't think that is the case. You'd just have 6 high end guys who are rested and could be deployed to fit into whatever the situation called for. I do think it would be a good idea to keep focusing on some guys in the 2nd or 3rd that have high ceilings but could take time.

    I do agree that we need 2 more top 6 guys. I think 1 of them is certainly coming from the Ott pick and the 2nd could be filled by Kaut if the Avs get a 2c that is good enough. I don't think it would be the worst idea to get another middle 6 player for the now whether in a short term UFA deal or as a return in a trade. Either way, Rants/Kaut/Compher is really good RW depth so I'm less worried about that, especially with the chance KK is drafted in which case you have a surplus at the position and Compher is likely your future 3c along with Bowers.

    I'm just not sure how a crazy move fulfills that goal though. You would want a top 6 player who fits in with the core which most UFAs are too old for and if someone is trading a young top 6 F who is going back?
     
  15. Meeqs

    Meeqs Registered User

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    He is certainly active, tough to say for how much benefit but have to appreciate how hard he works to try and find solutions. Its kinda a shame they had that year where they were told to go into win now mode, they would have been much more interesting to see how they would have turned out with the more long term approach, but with them coming to the central soon we should bee rooting for their demise.
     
  16. The Abusement Park

    The Abusement Park Registered User

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    Stones the guy they need to push for in FA. Perfect fit Imo. As far as trading for one that depends on who is available or who we can acquire.
     
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  17. Meeqs

    Meeqs Registered User

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    Mack will be resigned, and likely for close to double what he is getting now. Over the Avs Cup window a lot will change, all that matters is the Avs keep up the focus on drafting and developing so as guys get raises there will be good young players on ELCs to supplement that. Look at Chi, TBL, Pit, etc. Competitive teams go through a lot of changes over their contending windows, you expect it.

    If your argument is that you are worried Nate will leave or that a likely top 5 pick wont be an impact player and part of the core then you are being paranoid and not thinking things through reasonably.

    The Avs are an up and coming team and they already have most of the pieces to be a real threat for a long time. What they still need isn't too hard to acquire and more of the skill comes in the risk of shortening the window through mistakes brought upon by shortsighted thinking rather than a lack of options.

    A top 5 pick on a forward being ready 1 year after their draft and competitive 2 years after is the standard development path, not an early one.

    Being more competitive in the now will come at the cost of being less competitive in the future and with all the young assets the team has coming up its looking like the future will be the stronger of the 2 windows.

    Building a team in the NHL is just the marshmellow test and a lot of people still fail.
     
  18. Meeqs

    Meeqs Registered User

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    Stone is very interesting. He is undoubtedly elite and makes those around him better, he would carry any line he is on. The benefits are there.

    What acquiring Stone does is 2 things. He makes the Avs FAR more dangerous in the next 3-4 years, however after that with his likely decline with age and large contract he will cause the Avs issues making them less competitive there after. So the question is do you think that is a worth while trade off, or which of the 2 is more likely to win you a cup?

    Some points against him is that him and Rants will likely be above 20m in 2 RWs, which is a ton of cap % in what is generally the weakest position to put that money towards. RW is also not as big of a position of need for the Avs. Also if Kaut ends up being a true top 6 forward then the signing is possibly a mistake as you now have redundancy at the position which almost always ends in a player being traded away to fill issues elsewhere and by the time that happens you are usually trading away the player you would have rather kept.

    Finally should the Avs get KK all of this is moot as the signing wouldn't happen.

    I think Stone is interesting with good merit on both sides. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it.
     
  19. Pokecheque

    Pokecheque armoredheadspace Sponsor

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    Wait...when did they go in to "win now" mode?
     
  20. Meeqs

    Meeqs Registered User

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    When they traded for Stepan and HJ. Not that the trades weren't worth it or didn't help them but that they didn't align well with what they were doing at the time. Especially giving up the 9th(?) OA pick
     
  21. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    My whole premise is that if Sakic won't start to think proactively, then we probably won't be able to put a contender around MacK for another 2 seasons...at best...without getting spectacularly lucky. I'm not asking to sell the farm or any specific move, just a little proactive planning so we can add the star forward that we're missing before next season starts, so we can capitalize on our window. If we add that star via the lotto-gods & stone signs with us in FA, letting us keep all of our ammo while adding two stars capable of anchoring a line, then all the better. But if we don't have a dynasty dropped in our lap, I really hope that the plan is a little more extensive than "wait harder"...


    And Tavares actually leaving a team that failed to build around him while he was giving them a massive discount, could well prove to be an isolated event that only happened because of Toronto's famous drawing-power in FA...or any # of other reasons why an isolated event might happen...or it could be the start of a sea change.

    NBA stars didn't leave their teams in FA until LeBron took his talents to south beach less than a decade ago. Now it is the norm & players' refusal to sit around & let bad GMs squander their careers is one of the defining characteristics of the player-empowerment era in the NBA. Star Footballers over the past ~20 odd years, since the bosman ruling, have taken so much control over their careers that they can upgrade clubs every season & there are mediocre coaches who have built very successful careers off of being friendly with certain agents who would then funnel their players to those coaches' teams.

    That NHL stars have been so content to stay put & that their movement is so restricted, is an oddity due to how niche a sport hockey is, rather than the norm seen in global sports. As hockey grows, sooner or later, NHL stars will start to take some agency over their careers as well. Whether Tavares, MacKinnon, or some kid who hasn't even been drafted yet, is the guy who finally breaks that barrier down for them; is obviously still a mystery, but it's not a concern with no grounding.


    ...especially not when tons of NHL stars have changed teams because they demanded a trade as they approached FA. Which is the way that I would hope that we are most likely to lose MacK, if he ever were to actually leave...
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  22. Foppberg

    Foppberg Registered User Sponsor

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  23. lonelybadger

    lonelybadger Registered User

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    These are not the trades I want but the trades I deserve.
     
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  24. Foppa2118

    Foppa2118 Waingro

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    Fair enough, but then if Sakic does think proactively this summer, this will alleviate a lot of your concerns?
     
  25. Iceberg

    Iceberg Registered User

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    We were rebuilding (still are), only natural in this case for a GM to give two rookies (Jost and Kerfoot) oportunities and ice time. Now Sakic will have a lot more info on this players to make decisions going forward. Sakic made it pretty clear at the end of last season what his intentions were and what his expectations for this season were. But apparently some fans had higher, more unrealistic expactations.

    I already said that Sakic will have to find his balls eventually. Am i confident he will? No so much.
     
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