Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XVII| Are We Sellers?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pierce Hawthorne

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Apr 29, 2012
45,044
42,348
Caverns of Draconis
Of players on that list by LeBrun, the only interesting one to me is Toffoli. I think he can bounce back. And if the Avs really think getting Quick might be a good idea I'd definitely try to get Toffoli with him. However for that to happen, we would need to move out both Grubauer and Varlamov and that's about as unrealistic as it gets.


God I would love for this to happen.


Grubs would have a lot of interest around the league. Philly, Carolina, New York. All these teams were interested in him before and none have really solved the goaltending issues today.


I think we could get a 2nd back for him. Then move Varly to whatever other team doesn't get Grubauer. And the whole time we work those two trades be negotiating with LA for Quick and Toffoli using some of the assets we get from Grubs/Varly.


Roll with Quick and Francouz and at Toffoli for secondary scoring.


Itd be extremely savvy from Sakic, perhaps to savvy for him to pull off.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
60,269
19,181
w/ Renly's Peach
Random question but what all do you think the Avs REALLY need. Like lets say that the Ott pick becomes a C, we'll use Cozens as an example. (Don't worry about line combos, use these as depth charts)(Also note this doesn't include any picks or prospects past Otts 1st).

Gabe/Nate/Mikko
Kerf/Cozens/Kaut
Jost/Soda/Compher
Calvert/Bowers/Kam
Nieto/Sven

Ej/G
Zads/Makar
Cole/Timmins
Barrie/Barbs
Graves/Meloche

Varly/Grubbi/Franc

So for me some needs I see is maybe a 2LW, an eventual need to find a Soderberg replacement (whether internally or externally), some longer term but high upside d prospects and a major solution in long term goaltending.

The Barrie trade seems pretty obvious.

Maybe a middle 6 depth signing for extra depth.

A long term goalie solution will become a bigger and bigger need throughout every avenue they can

Overall picks and prospects.

I don't see a lot of moves that need to be made. Especially until Makar, Girard, Z, Compher, Likely the Ott 1st player, Kaut will all command decent money.

What are this threads thoughts. I'd say to also keep in mind the long term goal over the short term one. We want to make a roster that can compete for the next 8 years, not just the next 3 with some overpriced 30 year olds, which I'm not saying don't consider but be careful of term.

Who knows what we’ll need by the time Cozens is ready to Center a cup winning scoring line *shrug*
 
  • Like
Reactions: CobraAcesS

Iceberg

Registered User
May 4, 2002
4,783
1,116
Is that really so much more naive than banking on Kerfoot, Jost, Ghetto, Nemeth, etc. to fix things this year was?

Have I been sent my new avatar?

Kerfoot, Jost, Guetto and Nemeth were part of the team last year, they were not brought in to fix things, they were aready there. And Sakic wasn't expecting this team to be much better than this, he chose to "stay the course".

Now that Jost and Kerfoot have not taken the next step i suspect the aproach we'll be different this year.

And you can use that Neymar picture from yesterday for now.
 

Meeqs

Registered User
Aug 23, 2012
9,295
1,677
USA
Who knows what we’ll need by the time Cozens is ready to Center a cup winning scoring line *shrug*

That line is already sheltered offensively as is. A guy like Hughes, Cozens, Dach should be in the NHL the year after next and be competing in 3 years. The point is that they are all very likely to become strong 2c's for the long term and should be slotted in as such should the Avs get them. Young players like Barzal, EP, Marners, etc are making impacts younger and younger so its not crazy to think they will do the same in a very sheltered role with good linemates. It doesn't take talented players long to make an impact anymore once they make it (at least for top 3-5 guys).

The longer you go out you worry less about the 2c but more about how Soda will hold up, there are a lot of options to replace what he will lose but that'll need to be decided. Hence why I suggested possibly looking at middle 6 depth to insulate such transitions could be reasonable.
 

Iceberg

Registered User
May 4, 2002
4,783
1,116
Is that really so much more naive than banking on Kerfoot, Jost, Ghetto, Nemeth, etc. to fix things this year was?

Have I been sent my new avatar?
Edit:
I’ll wear it since a bet’s a bet and that’s on me for not even considering the possibility of an extended holdout to get Nylander under the 7M I predicted...but I don’t think losing that bet contradicts my assessment of what it would have taken to lock Nylander up over the summer, which was the argument which spawned the bet.

It took a long holdout from Nylander to get more than he actually deserved. Dubas caved.
 

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,051
29,109
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
Arizona is at the 50 contract limit.

Still not sure what to think of Chayka. On one hand he's parlayed weaponized cap space into some decent returns. On the other hand, I think he's moved a lot of stuff around and it hasn't had a discernible improvement on their fortunes. It's unfortunate they've had absolute shit luck with injuries but I just don't know exactly what the plan or vision is there.
 

The Abusement Park

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jan 18, 2016
34,091
25,201
Random question but what all do you think the Avs REALLY need. Like lets say that the Ott pick becomes a C, we'll use Cozens as an example. (Don't worry about line combos, use these as depth charts)(Also note this doesn't include any picks or prospects past Otts 1st).

Gabe/Nate/Mikko
Kerf/Cozens/Kaut
Jost/Soda/Compher
Calvert/Bowers/Kam
Nieto/Sven

Ej/G
Zads/Makar
Cole/Timmins
Barrie/Barbs
Graves/Meloche

Varly/Grubbi/Franc

So for me some needs I see is maybe a 2LW, an eventual need to find a Soderberg replacement (whether internally or externally), some longer term but high upside d prospects and a major solution in long term goaltending.

The Barrie trade seems pretty obvious.

Maybe a middle 6 depth signing for extra depth.

A long term goalie solution will become a bigger and bigger need throughout every avenue they can

Overall picks and prospects.

I don't see a lot of moves that need to be made. Especially until Makar, Girard, Z, Compher, Likely the Ott 1st player, Kaut will all command decent money.

What are this threads thoughts. I'd say to also keep in mind the long term goal over the short term one. We want to make a roster that can compete for the next 8 years, not just the next 3 with some overpriced 30 year olds, which I'm not saying don't consider but be careful of term.

A top pairing D. Makar won’t be one his first year, EJ looks to be regressing a little bit, Zads isn’t consistent enough. But the true needs are a legit 2nd line. Well need at least 2 top 6 guys at leas imo.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
60,269
19,181
w/ Renly's Peach
That line is already sheltered offensively as is. A guy like Hughes, Cozens, Dach should be in the NHL the year after next and be competing in 3 years. The point is that they are all very likely to become strong 2c's for the long term and should be slotted in as such should the Avs get them. Young players like Barzal, EP, Marners, etc are making impacts younger and younger so its not crazy to think they will do the same in a very sheltered role with good linemates. It doesn't take talented players long to make an impact anymore once they make it (at least for top 3-5 guys).

The longer you go out you worry less about the 2c but more about how Soda will hold up, there are a lot of options to replace what he will lose but that'll need to be decided. Hence why I suggested possibly looking at middle 6 depth to insulate such transitions could be reasonable.

I've bolded the key part of your post. Cozens / Dach / Turcotte being ready to center a cup caliber scoring line in their draft+3 season would give us exactly 1 shot at contending before we need to able to convince MacK to sign an extension. And that is a much bigger risk than I am comfortable with...a is banking on the specific kid we draft become one of those exceptions who's ready early, which is why we should be proactive & open our window well before the 2021-2022 season.
Kerfoot, Jost, Guetto and Nemeth were part of the team last year, they were not brought in to fix things, they were aready there. And Sakic wasn't expecting this team to be much better than this, he chose to "stay the course".

Now that Jost and Kerfoot have not taken the next step i suspect the aproach we'll be different this year.

And you can use that Neymar picture from yesterday for now.

Right, and they had shown that they were insufficient for the role Sakic was banking on them growing into. Either that or he had no intentions of the team making any progress this season, which would be even more of an indictment...although I don't think it's one he's actually guilty of.

Why would you suspect that Sakic will suddenly break character?

Kk
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CobraAcesS

The Abusement Park

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jan 18, 2016
34,091
25,201
Arizona is at the 50 contract limit.

Still not sure what to think of Chayka. On one hand he's parlayed weaponized cap space into some decent returns. On the other hand, I think he's moved a lot of stuff around and it hasn't had a discernible improvement on their fortunes. It's unfortunate they've had absolute **** luck with injuries but I just don't know exactly what the plan or vision is there.

I don’t think he truly has a plan or hasn’t implemented it if he has one. I don’t really know what kind of team they’re supposed to be. Seems like he’s shuffling the chairs around and hoping they get better some how.
 

Foppa2118

Registered User
Oct 3, 2003
52,267
31,334
Should we & is it? I’m far from convinced that Joe wouldn’t be content picking 5th, signing a lower level 2nd line winger in FA, and letting Frank n Groo fight it out for the goalie gig; while banking on Makar / Meloche / Timmins to bolster our blueline & Kaut / Bowers / Shvyryov / Lewis the forward core. That sounds much more like his MO than making an aggressive move that solved a hole for the longterm, so what makes it obvious that Sakic will suddenly act out of character this summer?

That sounds like little more than wishful thinking given the rate at which Sakic makes trades come together...as does your analysis of MacK’s psychological makeup. I don’t see what about him or what he has said would lead any of us to believe that he would be content to re-sign with a team that failed to put a contender around him when he was giving them a 50% discount. Given which, 3 years from now Sakic had better already be working on a MacK trade for the following summer if we’re still “slowly address(ing) the finishing touches” with nothing to show for it then...lest we enter his final season under contract, without a commitment from him or the trade boon that he could still return at that point.

CGF, I get the concern, but your whole premise is based around "a team that failed to put a contender around him" as you put it. That's not a strict definition. It's somewhat subjective and there's simply no way of knowing what will happen in the next five years.

All the evidence says they're trending upwards, that they have some help in the system on the way, and will very likely get more help this off season through the draft, UFA, and possibly trade.

Who are all these star players that have walked as UFAs because they didn't win anyway?

Stamkos? Joe Thornton? Blake Wheeler? Lundqvist? Brent Burns? They've all re-signed when they could have left as UFA's. Even EK probably would have stayed with Ottawa if his owner wasn't crazy, and he didn't have that drama with Hoffman.

Even lesser players like OEL, Couture, Vlassic, Shane Doan, and Giordano. They've all resigned instead of hitting UFA.

The only star player of Nate's caliber to leave recently is Tavares, and that was an entirely different situation. Toronto was his hometown team, they offered him a boatload of money, and the Islanders are clown show that keeps relocating.

The Isles missed the playoffs 17 times out of the last 23 seasons. They’ve made it past the first round once in the last 24 years, and they only won one game.

If the Avs keep missing the playoffs, or losing badly in the first round, then it’s a concern, but how can we make any sort of educated guess on whether they’ll miss the playoffs or make it to the Western finals the next five years? We simply can’t, so why should we be so afraid of something like that?

The main reason star players leave as UFA's is either money, the team is rebuilding, or to play for a hometown team. Nate doesn't have a hometown team in the NHL, and at the draft his Uncle said as a kid he wanted to play with Sakic on the Avs.

If they pay Nate what he's worth, and they're a competitive team, he has every reason in the world to re-sign. Competitiveness can change on a dime in this new NHL, and Nate saw first hand how playing a grass is greener game can backfire with Duchene.
 

Meeqs

Registered User
Aug 23, 2012
9,295
1,677
USA
A top pairing D. Makar won’t be one his first year, EJ looks to be regressing a little bit, Zads isn’t consistent enough. But the true needs are a legit 2nd line. Well need at least 2 top 6 guys at leas imo.

If you are going to be that deep I don't think a high end 1st pairing that that important honestly. You have guys who have all the tools and as the forward core get better that will also help a ton. At least when it comes to skill sets each of the 6 guys has everything accounted for and if you could balance out the minutes that gets really scary. Most teams need good top lines to play them 25 minutes and to hide their weaker 3rd lines, but if our 3rd pairing is Timmins and Cole I don't think that is the case. You'd just have 6 high end guys who are rested and could be deployed to fit into whatever the situation called for. I do think it would be a good idea to keep focusing on some guys in the 2nd or 3rd that have high ceilings but could take time.

I do agree that we need 2 more top 6 guys. I think 1 of them is certainly coming from the Ott pick and the 2nd could be filled by Kaut if the Avs get a 2c that is good enough. I don't think it would be the worst idea to get another middle 6 player for the now whether in a short term UFA deal or as a return in a trade. Either way, Rants/Kaut/Compher is really good RW depth so I'm less worried about that, especially with the chance KK is drafted in which case you have a surplus at the position and Compher is likely your future 3c along with Bowers.

I'm just not sure how a crazy move fulfills that goal though. You would want a top 6 player who fits in with the core which most UFAs are too old for and if someone is trading a young top 6 F who is going back?
 

Meeqs

Registered User
Aug 23, 2012
9,295
1,677
USA
Chayka is a real life NHL 18 Be A GM mode player.

He is certainly active, tough to say for how much benefit but have to appreciate how hard he works to try and find solutions. Its kinda a shame they had that year where they were told to go into win now mode, they would have been much more interesting to see how they would have turned out with the more long term approach, but with them coming to the central soon we should bee rooting for their demise.
 

The Abusement Park

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jan 18, 2016
34,091
25,201
If you are going to be that deep I don't think a high end 1st pairing that that important honestly. You have guys who have all the tools and as the forward core get better that will also help a ton. At least when it comes to skill sets each of the 6 guys has everything accounted for and if you could balance out the minutes that gets really scary. Most teams need good top lines to play them 25 minutes and to hide their weaker 3rd lines, but if our 3rd pairing is Timmins and Cole I don't think that is the case. You'd just have 6 high end guys who are rested and could be deployed to fit into whatever the situation called for. I do think it would be a good idea to keep focusing on some guys in the 2nd or 3rd that have high ceilings but could take time.

I do agree that we need 2 more top 6 guys. I think 1 of them is certainly coming from the Ott pick and the 2nd could be filled by Kaut if the Avs get a 2c that is good enough. I don't think it would be the worst idea to get another middle 6 player for the now whether in a short term UFA deal or as a return in a trade. Either way, Rants/Kaut/Compher is really good RW depth so I'm less worried about that, especially with the chance KK is drafted in which case you have a surplus at the position and Compher is likely your future 3c along with Bowers.

I'm just not sure how a crazy move fulfills that goal though. You would want a top 6 player who fits in with the core which most UFAs are too old for and if someone is trading a young top 6 F who is going back?

Stones the guy they need to push for in FA. Perfect fit Imo. As far as trading for one that depends on who is available or who we can acquire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RoyIsALegend

Meeqs

Registered User
Aug 23, 2012
9,295
1,677
USA
I've bolded the key part of your post. Cozens / Dach / Turcotte being ready to center a cup caliber scoring line in their draft+3 season would give us exactly 1 shot at contending before we need to able to convince MacK to sign an extension. And that is a much bigger risk than I am comfortable with...a is banking on the specific kid we draft become one of those exceptions who's ready early, which is why we should be proactive & open our window well before the 2021-2022 season.

Mack will be resigned, and likely for close to double what he is getting now. Over the Avs Cup window a lot will change, all that matters is the Avs keep up the focus on drafting and developing so as guys get raises there will be good young players on ELCs to supplement that. Look at Chi, TBL, Pit, etc. Competitive teams go through a lot of changes over their contending windows, you expect it.

If your argument is that you are worried Nate will leave or that a likely top 5 pick wont be an impact player and part of the core then you are being paranoid and not thinking things through reasonably.

The Avs are an up and coming team and they already have most of the pieces to be a real threat for a long time. What they still need isn't too hard to acquire and more of the skill comes in the risk of shortening the window through mistakes brought upon by shortsighted thinking rather than a lack of options.

A top 5 pick on a forward being ready 1 year after their draft and competitive 2 years after is the standard development path, not an early one.

Being more competitive in the now will come at the cost of being less competitive in the future and with all the young assets the team has coming up its looking like the future will be the stronger of the 2 windows.

Building a team in the NHL is just the marshmellow test and a lot of people still fail.
 

Meeqs

Registered User
Aug 23, 2012
9,295
1,677
USA
Stones the guy they need to push for in FA. Perfect fit Imo. As far as trading for one that depends on who is available or who we can acquire.

Stone is very interesting. He is undoubtedly elite and makes those around him better, he would carry any line he is on. The benefits are there.

What acquiring Stone does is 2 things. He makes the Avs FAR more dangerous in the next 3-4 years, however after that with his likely decline with age and large contract he will cause the Avs issues making them less competitive there after. So the question is do you think that is a worth while trade off, or which of the 2 is more likely to win you a cup?

Some points against him is that him and Rants will likely be above 20m in 2 RWs, which is a ton of cap % in what is generally the weakest position to put that money towards. RW is also not as big of a position of need for the Avs. Also if Kaut ends up being a true top 6 forward then the signing is possibly a mistake as you now have redundancy at the position which almost always ends in a player being traded away to fill issues elsewhere and by the time that happens you are usually trading away the player you would have rather kept.

Finally should the Avs get KK all of this is moot as the signing wouldn't happen.

I think Stone is interesting with good merit on both sides. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it.
 

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,051
29,109
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
He is certainly active, tough to say for how much benefit but have to appreciate how hard he works to try and find solutions. Its kinda a shame they had that year where they were told to go into win now mode, they would have been much more interesting to see how they would have turned out with the more long term approach, but with them coming to the central soon we should bee rooting for their demise.

Wait...when did they go in to "win now" mode?
 

Meeqs

Registered User
Aug 23, 2012
9,295
1,677
USA
Wait...when did they go in to "win now" mode?

When they traded for Stepan and HJ. Not that the trades weren't worth it or didn't help them but that they didn't align well with what they were doing at the time. Especially giving up the 9th(?) OA pick
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
60,269
19,181
w/ Renly's Peach
CGF, I get the concern, but your whole premise is based around "a team that failed to put a contender around him" as you put it. That's not a strict definition. It's somewhat subjective and there's simply no way of knowing what will happen in the next five years.

All the evidence says they're trending upwards, that they have some help in the system on the way, and will very likely get more help this off season through the draft, UFA, and possibly trade.

Who are all these star players that have left their team because they didn't win anyway?

Stamkos? Joe Thornton? Blake Wheeler? Lundqvist? Brent Burns? They've all re-signed when they could have left as UFA's. Even EK probably would have stayed with Ottawa if his owner wasn't crazy, and he didn't have that drama with Hoffman.

Even lesser players like OEL, Couture, Vlassic, Shane Doan, and Giordano. They've all resigned instead of hitting UFA.

The only star player of Nate's caliber to leave recently is Tavares, and that was an entirely different situation. Toronto was his hometown team, they offered him a boatload of money, and the Islanders are clown show that

The Isles missed the playoffs 17 times out of the last 23 seasons. They’ve made it past the first round once in the last 24 years, and they only won one game.

If the Avs keep missing the playoffs, or losing badly in the first round, then it’s a concern, but how can we make any sort of educated guess on whether they’ll miss the playoffs or make it to the Western finals the next five years? We simply can’t, so why should we be so afraid of something like that?

The main reason star players leave as UFA's is either money, the team is rebuilding, or to play for a hometown team. Nate doesn't have a hometown team in the NHL, and at the draft his Uncle said as a kid he wanted to play with Sakic on the Avs.

If they pay Nate what he's worth, and they're a competitive team, he has every reason in the world to re-sign. Competitiveness can change on a dime in this new NHL, and Nate saw first hand how playing a grass is greener game can backfire with Duchene.

My whole premise is that if Sakic won't start to think proactively, then we probably won't be able to put a contender around MacK for another 2 seasons...at best...without getting spectacularly lucky. I'm not asking to sell the farm or any specific move, just a little proactive planning so we can add the star forward that we're missing before next season starts, so we can capitalize on our window. If we add that star via the lotto-gods & stone signs with us in FA, letting us keep all of our ammo while adding two stars capable of anchoring a line, then all the better. But if we don't have a dynasty dropped in our lap, I really hope that the plan is a little more extensive than "wait harder"...


And Tavares actually leaving a team that failed to build around him while he was giving them a massive discount, could well prove to be an isolated event that only happened because of Toronto's famous drawing-power in FA...or any # of other reasons why an isolated event might happen...or it could be the start of a sea change.

NBA stars didn't leave their teams in FA until LeBron took his talents to south beach less than a decade ago. Now it is the norm & players' refusal to sit around & let bad GMs squander their careers is one of the defining characteristics of the player-empowerment era in the NBA. Star Footballers over the past ~20 odd years, since the bosman ruling, have taken so much control over their careers that they can upgrade clubs every season & there are mediocre coaches who have built very successful careers off of being friendly with certain agents who would then funnel their players to those coaches' teams.

That NHL stars have been so content to stay put & that their movement is so restricted, is an oddity due to how niche a sport hockey is, rather than the norm seen in global sports. As hockey grows, sooner or later, NHL stars will start to take some agency over their careers as well. Whether Tavares, MacKinnon, or some kid who hasn't even been drafted yet, is the guy who finally breaks that barrier down for them; is obviously still a mystery, but it's not a concern with no grounding.


...especially not when tons of NHL stars have changed teams because they demanded a trade as they approached FA. Which is the way that I would hope that we are most likely to lose MacK, if he ever were to actually leave...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CobraAcesS

Foppa2118

Registered User
Oct 3, 2003
52,267
31,334
My whole premise is that if Sakic won't start to think proactively, then we probably won't be able to put a contender around MacK for another 2 years, at best...without getting spectacularly lucky. I'm not asking to sell the farm or any specific move, just a little proactive planning so we can add the star forward that we're missing before next season starts, so we can capitalize on our window. If we add that star via the lotto-gods & stone signs with us in FA, letting us keep all of our ammo, then all the better. But if we don't have a dynasty dropped in our lap, I really hope that the plan is a little more extensive than "keep waiting"...


And Tavares actually leaving a team that failed to build around him while he was giving them a massive discount, could well prove to be an isolated event that only happened because of Toronto's famous drawing-power in FA...or any # of other reasons why an isolated event might happen...or it could be the start of a sea change.

NBA stars didn't leave their teams in FA until LeBron took his talents to south beach less than a decade ago. Now it is the norm & players' refusal to sit around & let bad GMs squander their careers is one of the defining characteristics of the player-empowerment era in the NBA. Soccer players over the past ~20 odd years, since the bosman ruling, have taken so much control over their careers that they can upgrade clubs every season & there are coaches who have built careers off of being friendly with certain agents that funnel their players to those coaches' teams.

That NHL stars have been so content to stay put & that their movement is so restricted, is an oddity due to how niche a sport hockey is, rather than the norm seen in global sports. As hockey grows, sooner or later, NHL stars will start to take some agency over their careers as well. Whether Tavares, MacKinnon, or some kid who hasn't even been drafted yet, is the guy who finally breaks that barrier down for them; is obviously still a mystery, but it's not an concern without grounding.

...especially not when tons of NHL stars have changed teams because they demanded a trade as they approached FA. Which is the way that I would hope that we are most likely way that we lose MacK, if he ever did leave...

Fair enough, but then if Sakic does think proactively this summer, this will alleviate a lot of your concerns?
 

Iceberg

Registered User
May 4, 2002
4,783
1,116
Right, and they had shown that they were insufficient for the role Sakic was banking on them growing into. Either that or he had no intentions of the team making any progress this season, which would be even more of an indictment...although I don't think it's one he's actually guilty of.


We were rebuilding (still are), only natural in this case for a GM to give two rookies (Jost and Kerfoot) oportunities and ice time. Now Sakic will have a lot more info on this players to make decisions going forward. Sakic made it pretty clear at the end of last season what his intentions were and what his expectations for this season were. But apparently some fans had higher, more unrealistic expactations.

Why would you suspect that Sakic will suddenly break character?

Kk

I already said that Sakic will have to find his balls eventually. Am i confident he will? No so much.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad