Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XIII| Trade Everyone!

[The Abusement Park]

You wont find many fans who are more on the side of disregarding prospects than me. They are constantly overrated and overvalued, however in the case of Makar and Timmins we have more than enough evidence to show they are NHL caliber players. Not talking about their ceiling or where they end up but that they simply belong in the league and odds are more likely than not they can adequately play at a top 4 level long term for the team.

Again you’re contradicting yourself.

What evidence have either of them shown that they can come in right now and play at the NHL level? Makar has never played any sort of NHL hockey. Timmins has played a few preseason games and looked fine but still, he’s a prospect.

 

[Foppberg]

Saying we know what we have in Makar/Timmins is moronic. We have no idea what we have in them at the NHL level, we can project, but until they get here we have no idea how they'll adjust. If that was true Stefan Elliott, Duncan Siemens, Cam Barker, and every other big shot prospect that ended up busting would be an NHL star.

 

[Meeqs]

Saying we know what we have in Makar/Timmins is moronic. We have no idea what we have in them at the NHL level, we can project, but until they get here we have no idea how they'll adjust. If that was true Stefan Elliott, Duncan Siemens, Cam Barker, and every other big shot prospect that ended up busting would be an NHL star.

If you can't tell the difference between Makar/Timmins and Elliot/Siemens and you follow the philosophy of "You just never know until you know" then the problem is with your player evaluation skills and improper mindset, not my argument.

Making educated predictions upon risk based analysis on imperfect information is part of any high end profession in the world worth a damn. If your goal is to obtain insightful analysis on a situation it is something worth getting comfortable with and is necessary for viewing hockey outside of bar conversation levels of dialogue.

 

[Meeqs]

Again you’re contradicting yourself.

What evidence have either of them shown that they can come in right now and play at the NHL level? Makar has never played any sort of NHL hockey. Timmins has played a few preseason games and looked fine but still, he’s a prospect.

Its pretty crazy right, how even though every year teams select players that have never played in the NHL in this thing called the draft they manage to get the order right with some degree of accuracy. Its almost like if you understand the game and watch enough of a player you can see where their skillsets line up and how they might translate into the NHL.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

If you can't tell the difference between Makar/Timmins and Elliot/Siemens and you follow the philosophy of "You just never know until you know" then the problem is with your player evaluation skills and improper mindset, not my argument.

Making educated predictions upon risk based analysis on imperfect information is part of any high end profession in the world worth a damn. If your goal is to obtain insightful analysis on a situation it is something worth getting comfortable with and is necessary for viewing hockey outside of bar conversation levels of dialogue.

that's a good one

 

[Meeqs]

This is the **** that drives me nuts. You completely contradict yourself in the first 2 sentences right here. The first part I agree with for the most part.

But then you go on to treat Makar and Timmins as if it’s certain they’ll be top pairing guys. So either you’re pushing a narrative against Barrie or you’re lying.

And history has taught us anything it’s to not pencil in prospects to our top pair/4 before they’ve played a game in the nhl. Elliot? Easily a top 4 guy. No longer in the league. Siemens? Easily a top 4 guy. Currently playing for a PTO. Bigras? Easily gonna be a top 4 guy. Not in the league.

Do I believe that Makar and Timmins will be top 4 guys in the future? Yeah I think so. But I’d also like to make sure that they can at least be NHL caliber players before we get rid of a top 5 OFD and high #3 dman before for their sake. Unless of course we get some stupid big trade offer from someone but that goes for most anyone on the team.

Its not a contradiction. We know where Makar and Timmins games are at RIGHT NOW, however we don't know what their ceilings may become or the players they may end up being. Where they are currently at is far more than is needed in most cases to make that kind of decision.

You simply aren't understanding my argument, and going over it I feel that I have explained it well enough to where the burden isn't on my explanation.

If in the past you penciled in guys like Elliot into the top 4 then that's on you personally and has nothing to do with my argument.

 

[Meeqs]

that's a good one

Player evaluation is a skill. I mean hell we had a guy on here a bit ago who thought the Avs should bring back Sgarbossa. Everyone on here understands the game at different levels and that's ok, but it needs to be noted for conversational purposes. Its not fans fault that they buy into the hype of the prospects as the media intends for it to act that way but it can lead you to incorrect conclusions.

 

[Pokecheque]

Again, this conversation really can wait a year.

They're. Not. Dealing. Barrie. This. Season.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Its not a contradiction. We know where Makar and Timmins games are at RIGHT NOW, however we don't know what their ceilings may become or the players they may end up being. Where they are currently at is far more than is needed in most cases to make that kind of decision.

You simply aren't understanding my argument, and going over it I feel that I have explained it well enough to where the burden isn't on my explanation.

If in the past you penciled in guys like Elliot into the top 4 then that's on you personally and has nothing to do with my argument.

Yes. We do know where Makar and Timmins games are right now. They are very very good players at a junior and college level right now. Just like Elliot, Siemens, and Bigras were.

And what’s the difference between penciling in Makar and Timmins? They’ve literally never played an NHL game before, they could not pan out for all we know.

And of course prospects have differing levels of translating to the NHL and some are more likely to be NHL’ers than others. But until they actually excel at the NHL level there’s always the risk that said player may not make it. And it’d be ridiculous to get rid of an elite talent because some prospect who’s never played an NHL game before is already at a top 4 level.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Player evaluation is a skill. I mean hell we had a guy on here a bit ago who thought the Avs should bring back Sgarbossa. Everyone on here understands the game at different levels and that's ok, but it needs to be noted for conversational purposes. Its not fans fault that they buy into the hype of the prospects as the media intends for it to act that way but it can lead you to incorrect conclusions.

Jesus Christ... ok I’m done here.

 

[Meeqs]

Again, this conversation really can wait a year.

They're. Not. Dealing. Barrie. This. Season.

Pretty much, and once it gets closer to being a reality most of these silly hypotheticals will have been dispersed and it will be easier to talk about. The more interesting question is where he goes and what the Avs would be looking for. As more and more holes are filled it makes the Avs desired asking price more flexible and hard to narrow down.

An early guess would be to TBL for a deal involving Foote as the main piece coming back, however a lot is likely to change between then and now.

 

[Meeqs]

Yes. We do know where Makar and Timmins games are right now. They are very very good players at a junior and college level right now. Just like Elliot, Siemens, and Bigras were.

And what’s the difference between penciling in Makar and Timmins? They’ve literally never played an NHL game before, they could not pan out for all we know.

And of course prospects have differing levels of translating to the NHL and some are more likely to be NHL’ers than others. But until they actually excel at the NHL level there’s always the risk that said player may not make it. And it’d be ridiculous to get rid of an elite talent because some prospect who’s never played an NHL game before is already at a top 4 level.

That's your issue. If you can't tell the glaring difference between the 2 then you will be stuck at an impasse and this conversation wont be able to go anywhere.

Even with that, your argument is that the Avs should not trade Barrie in 7-9 months because both prospects who are essentially NHL ready now on the % chance that they both bust. If you don't see the absolute foolishness in that conclusion based on the costs and risks involved then we certainly will never get anywhere on this topic because that ultimately is what you are saying.

 

[Foppberg]

I guess we're all just too dumb guys, darn it.

 

[Murzu]

Is Panarin going to cost less than 10m annually when we sign him next summer?

I'm trying to change the subject here. Help me.

 

[Foppa Frossa]

Timmins may never get over his concussion symptoms.

 

[Pokecheque]

Is Panarin going to cost less than 10m annually when we sign him next summer?

I'm trying to change the subject here. Help me.

I think the Avs can fit him and Karlsson under the cap.

 

[Murzu]

I think the Avs can fit him and Karlsson under the cap.

9M x 7yrs Panarin
11.5M x 7yrs EK

I'm on mobile so won't check it from Capfriendly, but I also think Avs could add both of those contracts without long term problems.

Let's hope Panarin and EK love mountains.

 

[The Abusement Park]

That's your issue. If you can't tell the glaring difference between the 2 then you will be stuck at an impasse and this conversation wont be able to go anywhere.

Even with that, your argument is that the Avs should not trade Barrie in 7-9 months because both prospects who are essentially NHL ready now on the % chance that they both bust. If you don't see the absolute foolishness in that conclusion based on the costs and risks involved then we certainly will never get anywhere on this topic because that ultimately is what you are saying.

Well you know best. I should have known a hockey savant like you would know way more than me. Just a random internet poster.

 

[Avsboy]

Do we need EK? I'd prefer Panarin and Stone. Load up the top 6.

 

[Foppa Frossa]

I hope AJG can take Gork's spot next season. Nothing against Gork but I feel like we're getting the best Gork and this is all he's ever going to be.

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

Its pretty crazy right, how even though every year teams select players that have never played in the NHL in this thing called the draft they manage to get the order right with some degree of accuracy. Its almost like if you understand the game and watch enough of a player you can see where their skillsets line up and how they might translate into the NHL.

You should google " NHL redraft", pretty amazing how the results are different from the actual draft after thr first few players. Just saying...

 

[dahrougem2]

That's your issue. If you can't tell the glaring difference between the 2 then you will be stuck at an impasse and this conversation wont be able to go anywhere.

Even with that, your argument is that the Avs should not trade Barrie in 7-9 months because both prospects who are essentially NHL ready now on the % chance that they both bust. If you don't see the absolute foolishness in that conclusion based on the costs and risks involved then we certainly will never get anywhere on this topic because that ultimately is what you are saying.

So you're telling us right now that a season after both Siemens and Elliott were drafted, you knew that they'd both become non-NHLers? Or are you just using revisionist history to further along your point.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

I hope AJG can take Gork's spot next season. Nothing against Gork but I feel like we're getting the best Gork and this is all he's ever going to be.

The issue is if AJG will actually develop into a more useful player than the limited, yet consistent Gork we see. He has serious work to do.

 

[Murzu]

Do we need EK? I'd prefer Panarin and Stone. Load up the top 6.

Forwards are the bigger need, but EK is the best D man in the world. Even though we don't need RHD's we need EK. He is a guy that you sign if you can and then figure out the rest.

I'd love if we got one of Stone, Panarin or EK. I can see at least Panarin and Stone testing free agency.. Too bad for us that Panarin is rumored to want to sign with a big city team.

 

[Foppa2118]

The issue is if AJG will actually develop into a more useful player than the limited, yet consistent Gork we see. He has serious work to do.

I really hope AJ figures it out, but I have my doubts at this point he can do it under Bednar's system. He looks like Galiardi looked to me when he couldn't figure out how Sacco wanted him to play.

I think he can play his role well in the NHL, I'm just not sure Bednar wants that role on his team.