Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XIII| Trade Everyone!

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henchman21

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Incase it hasn't been said yet, Seattle has been guaranteed the exact same rules that LV had for their ED. so we know the rules already. The only difference is that LV itself would not participate in Seattle's ED.

This means for the Avs an ED in 2020 would be pretty straight forward, however an ED in 2021 would be very difficult with the higher number of young players that would then need to be protected.

As of now everyone would like 2020 but its a very aggressive and possibly barely realistic time table with no set backs, AS well that there is the assumption that another lockout wont happen.

Best case is 2020 but the more likely case is a painful ED in 2021

It is expected that the rules will remain the same, but until the voting happens that can always change.
 

Foppa2118

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I think there are people who are reasonable about the trade Barrie situation, the problem becomes when the justification starts coming out that he sucks defensively, his impact is overrated, Makar/Timmins can easily replace him, all other defensemen are better, etc. When a player's ability is downgraded to justify the idea of the trade is where I have the issue in the discussion. ROR was going to get traded and it was pretty clear by the end. That didn't make ROR any worse of a player, he was still an elite #2C (still is now after his trade to St Louis).

The problem with this is you exaggerated the discussion to make it look worse than it is. I would be surprised if more than 1% of fans have definitively said that "Makar/Timmins can easily replace him" at this point. You also made up a pov that I don't think anyone has ever said before, that "all other defensemen are better" than Barrie.

The only thing accurate here is that people don't think Barrie is very good defensively, and that impacts his overall value.
 

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The problem with this is you exaggerated the discussion to make it look worse than it is. I would be surprised if more than 1% of fans have definitively said that "Makar/Timmins can easily replace him" at this point. You also made up a pov that I don't think anyone has ever said before, that "all other defensemen are better" than Barrie.

The only thing accurate here is that people don't think Barrie is very good defensively, and that impacts his overall value.

From what I’ve gathered from the 2 sides is that
1)people are ok with trading Barrie because Makar/Girard/Timmins are coming up

2) people don’t like Barries D game. Which isn’t entirely incorrect

3) people realize the a D core with Barrie is better with him in it than out it.
 

Foppa2118

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From what I’ve gathered from the 2 sides is that
1)people are ok with trading Barrie because Makar/Girard/Timmins are coming up

2) people don’t like Barries D game. Which isn’t entirely incorrect

3) people realize the a D core with Barrie is better with him in it than out it.

Without rehashing it too much, I think it's a little more nuanced than that. There's a lot of factors. Negotiating history between the two sides is another one.

I do appreciate the way you phrased number one though to say Makar, Girard, and Timmins are coming up. Not that people think they can jump right in and replace Barrie's production all by themselves. It will likely be a group effort if Barrie leaves. Which is the same in most cases when a team loses a key player, and the youngsters have the potential to help with that.

It's certainly understandable to be concerned with moving Barrie before you know if the youngsters can help. From my pov though I think we might have some good info to go off at the end of this season with Girard, and hopefully Timmins. Another season of college and hopefully a tryout out at the end of the season for Makar could give a decent idea with him as well.
 

Meeqs

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It is expected that the rules will remain the same, but until the voting happens that can always change.

When Seattle put in their bid, they did it on the condition that they were promised the same rules Vegas got.
 

CobraAcesS

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I think after tonight.. Anyone who mentions being in favor of trading Barrie should be ignored by the entire board until July 1st 2019. You can come back and be relevant then if he refuses to sign a reasonable contract.

Lets hope our defense is built around Girard at 7M. Barrie at 7M, and Makar at 7M all on different pairings in the future.
 

Balthazar

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Girard won't cost 7M if Sakic does like Poile did with his top 4 and lock him for 8 years at a cheap cap hit. He should become the new Josi.
 

CobraAcesS

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Girard won't cost 7M if Sakic does like Poile did with his top 4 and lock him for 8 years at a cheap cap hit. He should become the new Josi.

You never know, but the point stands. We have a chance to have one of the best puck moving trios in the entire NHL.

G-man has some things to figure out if he wants to be a 50 point D man. I thought he did really well on that top unit defensively. Barrie just seems to pick up points garbage or skill regardless, but G-man can actually hang on a top pairing defensively.

Usually top teams have one guy who can do everything, but our D is built around a collection of guys who have high end skills in certain areas. If we could combine Barrie and EJ then we'd have a EK, or a DD, but we have those elite skills just in different players.

Our D is going to be f***ing expensive in the future, but very high end by comity. Which could work if deployed right.
 

Avsboy

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Usually top teams have one guy who can do everything, but our D is built around a collection of guys who have high end skills in certain areas. If we could combine Barrie and EJ then we'd have a EK, or a DD, but we have those elite skills just in different players.

Hedman?

A large Makar? :sarcasm:
 

CobraAcesS

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Hedman?

A large Makar? :sarcasm:

Yeah well there is only one or two of those in the league lol. Hedman may be the modern Weber I think. Him and Seth Jones are very unique in that way with their size, skating, and offensive game.

Those guys can only play 25 minutes or so a night. We can ice an elite skill set for 60 minutes if Makar pans out lol.
 

Foppa2118

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A large Makar? :sarcasm:

Tell em Large Makar sent ya!

sub-buzz-9710-1504888248-14.jpg
 

Avsboy

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Then I tell em "Nah EJ sent me. Don't beat your dog." Then they show a shinpad and I melt into the ground like its cryptonite.
 

dahrougem2

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The problem with this is you exaggerated the discussion to make it look worse than it is. I would be surprised if more than 1% of fans have definitively said that "Makar/Timmins can easily replace him" at this point. You also made up a pov that I don't think anyone has ever said before, that "all other defensemen are better" than Barrie.

The only thing accurate here is that people don't think Barrie is very good defensively, and that impacts his overall value.
Take a look at your two likes, and you'll see who is constantly pushing the false narrative of "Makar/Timmins are already better than Barrie."

It's just annoying at this point.
 

Meeqs

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I think after tonight.. Anyone who mentions being in favor of trading Barrie should be ignored by the entire board until July 1st 2019. You can come back and be relevant then if he refuses to sign a reasonable contract.

Lets hope our defense is built around Girard at 7M. Barrie at 7M, and Makar at 7M all on different pairings in the future.

I'm sure by this point its been beaten to death but here's my take on the whole thing:

-Imo Barrie is a top 5 offensive Dman in the world and currently is possibly the Avs best defenseman. He will be a huge part of the season and it is unlikely it would be a wise decision to trade him right now.

-With that said, come this years upcoming draft, or this years TDL should the Avs be out of playoff contention they will almost certainly have to trade out a dman due to an abundance at the position and Barrie is by far the most logical candidate to be the one moved.

The Avs will have 6 top 4 caliber dman in EJ, Zads, Girard, Barrie, Timmins, Makar. Keeping them all historically hasn't been an option. There isn't enough ice time for all of them to be happy and more importantly they will all command worthwhile contracts which will lead the large % of cap all on inefficient used dman to leave big holes in the Avs roster elsewhere. In a cap world its not really possible to have that kind of depth without crippling your line up else where and simply isn't wise. This should be very familiar for long time Avs fans as when Stastny, RoR, Duchene and Mackinnon were all in the line up. We all knew at best we would be able to keep only 2 of them as it wasn't realistic to try and keep all of them (eventually 3 of them were moved). Its the same situation except on defense.

So in summation: Barrie should not be traded right now, however in the future it is almost an eventuality due to the parity mechanisms the NHL has in place.

Finally I just want to mention that I don't feel Girard is the type of dman that will get paid too highly unless he starts putting up massive offense, same with Zads. Makar will be cost controlled for a few years and we will have to see where the comps are at and I would expect Barrie to be pushing 8 with the cap inflation and comps like the contract EK will be getting.
 

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The Avs will have 6 top 4 caliber dman in EJ, Zads, Girard, Barrie, Timmins, Makar.

We don’t know that. This line of thinking is not good, we literally have 0 clue what we have with Makar and Timmins at the NHL level.

And if you truly believe that Barrie is top 5 at what he does than why would you want to get rid of him?
 
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henchman21

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We don’t know that. This line of thinking is not good, we literally have 0 clue what we have with Makar and Timmins at the NHL level.

And if you truly believe that Barrie is top 5 at what he does than why would you want to get rid of him?

This... and it isn't a 100% given that Barrie is the most logical to move. At very least it is debatable that EJ should be the guy moved, if any ever need to be.
 

Meeqs

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We don’t know that. This line of thinking is not good, we literally have 0 clue what we have with Makar and Timmins at the NHL level.

And if you truly believe that Barrie is top 5 at what he does than why would you want to get rid of him?

The NHL is a game of imperfect information, if you try and treat it as a game of certainty you will always be behind and make incorrect decisions. We know exactly what we have in Timmins and Makar and where there game is currently at. We also know the trajectory for these players historically. Even more so knowing where EJ,Zads and Girard currently are also gives the Avs extra insurance.

In short on why you would get rid of Barrie:

You have a top end player, who is about to be on an inefficient and expensive contract, that you already have multiple replacements for who (at the time of the actual move) will be ready to step in right away who are cost controlled for many years, and that you could get a massive return on that could go a long way towards filling the Avs more pressing issues.

Barrie is an elite player, but the circumstances make it a no brainer and imo an eventuality. There couldn't be a more perfect situation to trade a player and keeping him would cause numerous long term issues.

Even if we view Barrie simply as a UFA, why are the Avs at that time going to spend a huge % of their cap on a player that they wont have a need for?

Ultimately the NHL is far more complex than simply looking at which players are good, which is part of what makes these boards, and the sport so much fun.
 
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Meeqs

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This... and it isn't a 100% given that Barrie is the most logical to move. At very least it is debatable that EJ should be the guy moved, if any ever need to be.

We have 2 high end prospects in Makar and Timmins that fill Barries role on the team and are ready to replace him. We do not currently have any suitable replacements for EJ and what he brings to the team. If the Avs drafted Miro instead of Makar that would be different. EJ is also cost controlled while Barrie is not. EJ would also likely return less is a trade and draw less interest.
 
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henchman21

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We have 2 high end prospects in Makar and Timmins that fill Barries role on the team and are ready to replace him. We do not currently have any suitable replacements for EJ and what he brings to the team. If the Avs drafted Miro instead of Makar that would be different. EJ is also cost controlled while Barrie is not. EJ would also likely return less is a trade and draw less interest.

The two high end prospects are not ready to fill that role by any stretch. Timmins never will be able to. He is much more of a two way guy that would be more in line with replacing EJ than Barrie. EJ is also 3 years older and has injury issues... not good for a defensemen on the wrong side of 30. I'd say odds are high EJ won't be able to play EJ's current role in 2 seasons.
 

Pokecheque

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We have 2 high end prospects in Makar and Timmins that fill Barries role on the team and are ready to replace him. We do not currently have any suitable replacements for EJ and what he brings to the team. If the Avs drafted Miro instead of Makar that would be different. EJ is also cost controlled while Barrie is not. EJ would also likely return less is a trade and draw less interest.

You're counting your chickens WAY before they've hatched, especially given the very serious health issues plaguing Timmins the last two years.

Yes, if it comes down to it and you absolutely HAD to trade one, you trade EJ. He's older, more injury-prone, and very likely to hit a decline soon. Barrie is still in his prime and one of the top point-producers in the league at his position. I don't want either to go but right now, EJ is the guy you deal.
 

Meeqs

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The two high end prospects are not ready to fill that role by any stretch. Timmins never will be able to. He is much more of a two way guy that would be more in line with replacing EJ than Barrie. EJ is also 3 years older and has injury issues... not good for a defensemen on the wrong side of 30. I'd say odds are high EJ won't be able to play EJ's current role in 2 seasons.

By the time Barrie is traded they will likely both be in the NHL. Also they don't have to ever replace what Barrie brings, one of them simply has to become a solid top 4 dman, that's it.

If you feel that trading EJ and resigning Barrie to a large deal is the better option then more power to you, but that is a decision that I don't personally agree with for the reasons listed above, but more so a view that I don't think is realistic or likely.

You're counting your chickens WAY before they've hatched, especially given the very serious health issues plaguing Timmins the last two years.

Yes, if it comes down to it and you absolutely HAD to trade one, you trade EJ. He's older, more injury-prone, and very likely to hit a decline soon. Barrie is still in his prime and one of the top point-producers in the league at his position. I don't want either to go but right now, EJ is the guy you deal.

Injuries can happen to anyone at any time. They're a reality of the sport that you accept and hope you avoid them.

You wont find many fans who are more on the side of disregarding prospects than me. They are constantly overrated and overvalued, however in the case of Makar and Timmins we have more than enough evidence to show they are NHL caliber players. Not talking about their ceiling or where they end up but that they simply belong in the league and odds are more likely than not they can adequately play at a top 4 level long term for the team. The line I am setting is that Makar can be a #4 and Timmins can be a 3rd pairing NHL guy at least and I think to assume the under is being more unrealistic than the over in that case.

As for EJ see the comments above.
 
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The Abusement Park

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The NHL is a game of imperfect information, if you try and treat it as a game of certainty you will always be behind and make incorrect decisions. We know exactly what we have in Timmins and Makar and where there game is currently at. We also know the trajectory for these players historically.

This is the shit that drives me nuts. You completely contradict yourself in the first 2 sentences right here. The first part I agree with for the most part.

But then you go on to treat Makar and Timmins as if it’s certain they’ll be top pairing guys. So either you’re pushing a narrative against Barrie or you’re lying.

And history has taught us anything it’s to not pencil in prospects to our top pair/4 before they’ve played a game in the nhl. Elliot? Easily a top 4 guy. No longer in the league. Siemens? Easily a top 4 guy. Currently playing for a PTO. Bigras? Easily gonna be a top 4 guy. Not in the league.

Do I believe that Makar and Timmins will be top 4 guys in the future? Yeah I think so. But I’d also like to make sure that they can at least be NHL caliber players before we get rid of a top 5 OFD and high #3 dman before for their sake. Unless of course we get some stupid big trade offer from someone but that goes for most anyone on the team.
 
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