Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XIII| Trade Everyone!

[McMetal]

High end production > two way play, that's just a fact of life in the NHL.

Is it though? That's up for debate. When an offense-only defenseman like Barrie goes cold for a stretch, that's a big deal in the playoffs, because he certainly doesn't bring anything else. At least EJ can still be a shutdown D when he isn't scoring, Barrie without the points is a complete liability. Over the course of a regular season, it averages out, but in the playoffs your season is seven games long. Two way play gets you the distance in the playoffs.

I think Barrie's importance gets overrated by this fanbase because we just haven't seen much playoff action in a while, and his shiny numbers over the course of 82 games overahadows his dismal 4 point outing in last year's Preds series.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Is it though? That's up for debate. When an offense-only defenseman like Barrie goes cold for a stretch, that's a big deal in the playoffs, because he certainly doesn't bring anything else. At least EJ can still be a shutdown D when he isn't scoring, Barrie without the points is a complete liability. Over the course of a regular season, it averages out, but in the playoffs your season is seven games long. Two way play gets you the distance in the playoffs.

I think Barrie's importance gets overrated by this fanbase because we just haven't seen much playoff action in a while, and his shiny numbers over the course of 82 games overahadows his dismal 4 point outing in last year's Preds series.

Well the time before that we arguably lost the series due to losing him. Just saying I'm not sure I agree with making any kind of judgment based on one series.

He was also overmatched having to be the top pair rhd obviously. There was no way of deploying him in select matchups the way they would have had EJ been there.

 

[hooverdam]

4 points in 6 playoff games for a defenseman is not dismal...?

 

[McMetal]

4 points in 6 playoff games for a defenseman is not dismal...?

It is for an "elite, top five" defenseman.

 

[McMetal]

Well the time before that we arguably lost the series due to losing him. Just saying I'm not sure I agree with making any kind of judgment based on one series.

He was also overmatched having to be the top pair rhd obviously. There was no way of deploying him in select matchups the way they would have had EJ been there.

But if he's the best D on the team, how could he need sheltering? I'm not saying you specifically are saying that, but there are multiple people in here claiming that he's elite, and needing to be on the second pair to be effective kind of precludes that word being thrown around.

 

[Ivan13]

But if he's the best D on the team, how could he need sheltering? I'm not saying you specifically are saying that, but there are multiple people in here claiming that he's elite, and needing to be on the second pair to be effective kind of precludes that word being thrown around.

Players have strenghts, Mack is far and away the best player on the team, but you don't play him in the D zone because he is not good defensively and because it hampers his biggest strenght.

 

[hooverdam]

It is for an "elite, top five" defenseman.

Roman Josi had 4 points in 13 playoff games. Pretty dismal, eh?

I don't think you quite understand how hard it is to score in the playoffs, or how small the sample size is. Two more points and we could all call Barrie a PPG player in the playoffs, and you'd hate how misleading that is.

Edit: never mind, I see the strawman you're carefully building upthread. Carry on with your construction.

 

[McMetal]

Roman Josi had 4 points in 13 playoff games. Pretty dismal, eh?

I don't think you quite understand how hard it is to score in the playoffs, or how small the sample size is. Two more points and we could all call Barrie a PPG player in the playoffs, and you'd hate how misleading that is.

Edit: never mind, I see the strawman you're carefully building upthread. Carry on with your construction.

Yeah, pretty bad, it's part of why they lost in the second round as the regular season champs.

Look, all I'm saying is he isn't as good as everybody says he is. There are way too many people in here saying he's elite and irreplaceable, and that's just not true (I can go dig the quotes up tomorrow morning if you like).

 

[Foppa2118]

High end production > two way play, that's just a fact of life in the NHL.

That would be over simplifying it. Depends on the defense of the high end offensive D man, and the production of the better two way defenseman.

 

[Piestany88]

Take a look at your two likes, and you'll see who is constantly pushing the false narrative of "Makar/Timmins are already better than Barrie."

It's just annoying at this point.

Girard is better and he and and Makar more physically gifted is my narrative, I never mention Timmins as I'm not a Timmins fan at all . The reasons for trading Barrie go far beyond them replacing him

 

[Piestany88]

This is the **** that drives me nuts. You completely contradict yourself in the first 2 sentences right here. The first part I agree with for the most part.

But then you go on to treat Makar and Timmins as if it’s certain they’ll be top pairing guys. So either you’re pushing a narrative against Barrie or you’re lying.

And history has taught us anything it’s to not pencil in prospects to our top pair/4 before they’ve played a game in the nhl. Elliot? Easily a top 4 guy. No longer in the league. Siemens? Easily a top 4 guy. Currently playing for a PTO. Bigras? Easily gonna be a top 4 guy. Not in the league.

Do I believe that Makar and Timmins will be top 4 guys in the future? Yeah I think so. But I’d also like to make sure that they can at least be NHL caliber players before we get rid of a top 5 OFD and high #3 dman before for their sake. Unless of course we get some stupid big trade offer from someone but that goes for most anyone on the team.

They don't have to be top pairing guys and certainly not right away , Barrie isn't a top pairing guy either. Furthermore the decision on Barrie has to be made within a year to capitalize on the return

 

[Piestany88]

You're counting your chickens WAY before they've hatched, especially given the very serious health issues plaguing Timmins the last two years.

Yes, if it comes down to it and you absolutely HAD to trade one, you trade EJ. He's older, more injury-prone, and very likely to hit a decline soon. Barrie is still in his prime and one of the top point-producers in the league at his position. I don't want either to go but right now, EJ is the guy you deal.

You act like EJ is this old man , he's only 30 and 3 years older than Barrie. If you've played attention when EJ is out of the lineup the team struggles far more than when Barrie is .

 

[Piestany88]

Again you’re contradicting yourself.

What evidence have either of them shown that they can come in right now and play at the NHL level? Makar has never played any sort of NHL hockey. Timmins has played a few preseason games and looked fine but still, he’s a prospect.

The evidence is in Makar's talent, 100% he plays in the NHL based on his ability alone. The kids are going to need ice time. This really isn't complicated

 

[Piestany88]

Timmins may never get over his concussion symptoms.

That still has nothing to do with trading Barrie

 

[CB Joe]

This is the main stance I'm against as its simply not true. Makar and Timmins are special players while the rest of them never were.

Its true that any player at any time can get injured, and its also true that previous Avs prospects were FAR FAR too hyped as thats what ****ty teams do to make the fan bases happy but the rest of that statement is flat out incorrect.

If you can't tell the difference between Gaunce and Makar you are simply lack the understanding of the situation.

I've seen and heard it all before. Better prospects than Makar and Timmins have busted. I don't think I lack the understanding of the situation. I think maybe you may lack the experience of seeing prospects develop and bust.

I think Makar will very likely be an NHL player, but I don't know if that's in a top 2, top 4, or top 6 role. I think it's a relatively safe bet but not he's not a sure thing to stick around. I'm a lot less confident about Timmins. There is a very long list of players who have had a strong WJC and went on to do nothing. Saying he's a sure thing is blind confidence, especially when he's currently sitting out with a concussion.

 

[Piestany88]

High end production > two way play, that's just a fact of life in the NHL.

Might look good on the stat sheet but not if you want to win .

 

[Piestany88]

I've seen and heard it all before. Better prospects than Makar and Timmins have busted. I don't think I lack the understanding of the situation. I think maybe you may lack the experience of seeing prospects develop and bust.

I think Makar will very likely be an NHL player, but I don't know if that's in a top 2, top 4, or top 6 role. I think it's a relatively safe bet but not he's not a sure thing to stick around. I'm a lot less confident about Timmins. There is a very long list of players who have had a strong WJC and went on to do nothing. Saying he's a sure thing is blind confidence, especially when he's currently sitting out with a concussion.

I think it's a pretty safe bet the plan is to have Makar in the top 4 . Drafting him st #4 wasn't to play bottom pairing . The discussion between Joe and Makar turning pro or returning to college wasn't for Makar to be bottom pairing or bust, it was to prepare him for big minutes in the NHL. I'm pretty sure Joe and company plan on him being top 4 .

 

[Piestany88]

Is it though? That's up for debate. When an offense-only defenseman like Barrie goes cold for a stretch, that's a big deal in the playoffs, because he certainly doesn't bring anything else. At least EJ can still be a shutdown D when he isn't scoring, Barrie without the points is a complete liability. Over the course of a regular season, it averages out, but in the playoffs your season is seven games long. Two way play gets you the distance in the playoffs.

I think Barrie's importance gets overrated by this fanbase because we just haven't seen much playoff action in a while, and his shiny numbers over the course of 82 games overahadows his dismal 4 point outing in last year's Preds series.

Great post , the playoffs are a different animal.

 

[CB Joe]

Both of those guys will be on the Avs by the end of the season. Not quite the same.

If you're saying the Avs will be terrible this season and they might bring up Timmins and Makar to have a look at what they have then maybe I could see that happening.

If your saying that Makar and Timmins will be so good by seasons end that will jump ahead of all of the Avs' prospects and depth defenders than I don't see that happening. Especially since I think the Avs will be fighting for one of those final playoff spots and I don't see the Avs playing untested rookies ahead of veteran depth defenders in that scenario.

 

[Piestany88]

Avs had a 10 game win streak with Barrie out of the lineup last year and no Makar or Timmins. Girard took Over the pp and put up the same ppg over that stretch. Not having Barrie's points so many are enamored didn't keep the team from winning. Not having his defensive deficiencies on the other hand helped

 

[CB Joe]

I think it's a pretty safe bet the plan is to have Makar in the top 4 . Drafting him st #4 wasn't to play bottom pairing . The discussion between Joe and Makar turning pro or returning to college wasn't for Makar to be bottom pairing or bust, it was to prepare him for big minutes in the NHL. I'm pretty sure Joe and company plan on him being top 4 .

Well obviously no team plans on their high draft pick busting but it happens.

 

[tucker3434]

If you're saying the Avs will be terrible this season and they might bring up Timmins and Makar to have a look at what they have then maybe I could see that happening.

If your saying that Makar and Timmins will be so good by seasons end that will jump ahead of all of the Avs' prospects and depth defenders than I don't see that happening. Especially since I think the Avs will be fighting for one of those final playoff spots and I don't see the Avs playing untested rookies ahead of veteran depth defenders in that scenario.

Injuries happen. If Timmins gets healthy and back up to full speed, I wouldn’t be surprised if he would be looked at for a potential call up.

With Makar, I expect he’ll sign his ELC the day his season ends at UMass and be immediately assigned to Loveland. If he puts together a few good games, I wouldn’t be surprised if they wanted to get a look at a Makar-Cole bottom pairing, especially if injuries have made Lindholm or Alt NHL regulars by then. If we’re fully healthy and fighting for our playoff lives, Bednar probably doesn’t bump Nemeth. But when’s the last time we didn’t have a defender injured to finish the season?

To me pencilling then in the lineup is more like pencilling Jost in back in 16-17. They will be on the NHL squad very soon. It’s just a matter of how effective they’ll be.

 

[CobraAcesS]

But if he's the best D on the team, how could he need sheltering? I'm not saying you specifically are saying that, but there are multiple people in here claiming that he's elite, and needing to be on the second pair to be effective kind of precludes that word being thrown around.

I completely get that, but I'm at a bit of a crossroads here myself. While I am absolutely a two-way D man advocate. I think DD is more deserving of the Noris, and I think Weber, Chara, and Suter were more deserving when EK started to win it. However I do strongly believe in building this defense around having potentially three PMD.

I can throw shade on Barrie all day, but I do remember when it was an obvious feeling to feel like we were robbed of a playoff series by Matt Cooke. I was also impressed with Barrie late last year when EJ was out. While he wasn't amazing defensively I do think Z's initial struggles were more profound on their pairing. Eventually it did work, but I didn't feel like Barrie was the reason. Barrie has his faults, but I don't think it's appropriate to use that last series against him considering his partner, what we know hes normally capable of, and our depth both defensively and in net. The guy was not able to be played to his strengths IMO.

We have to think of it like this.. Yeah maybe we don't have a DD or EK, but we do have their skills in two different players. That might normally be a problem, except that those skills can be very situational and rely on performance during deployment at different times. We might actually be able to make that work not having one guy who does both. We do have EJ who can shutdown top lines, and we do have Barrie who can bring offense at a level only some of the very top D are capable of doing. It's going to be unconventional for this team, but it can also be a strength because we have an opportunity to potentially have the best puck moving defense in the league as a six man group.

We don't have to pay anyone 10-12M/yr though, but we can pay Barrie, EJ, Girard, etc for what they bring. As well as use Makar's ELC to our advantage as long as possible.

Pit and Vegas both have proven situational defense by comity can be valuable in the right circumstances. Plus in the end, it's probably the best shot we have unless Makar turns into Duncan Keith or a Suter of the modern era.

Call it an it factor, luck, whatever, but Barrie has it offensively. Until we can truly replace that or it becomes too expensive we should probably use it.

 

[Patagonia]

If you're saying the Avs will be terrible this season and they might bring up Timmins and Makar to have a look at what they have then maybe I could see that happening.

If your saying that Makar and Timmins will be so good by seasons end that will jump ahead of all of the Avs' prospects and depth defenders than I don't see that happening. Especially since I think the Avs will be fighting for one of those final playoff spots and I don't see the Avs playing untested rookies ahead of veteran depth defenders in that scenario.

I don’t believe anyone is suggesting Barrie can be replaced immediately. With 3 prospects + Girard, there is more enough ammunition that some of the players will develop. Understanding there is no certainty due to injuries or bust potential, but this applies to Barrie as well.

Sakic loading up on DMen the last few years increases the chances someone will develop without being pressured to jump into the league too soon.

Someone earlier mentioned Elliot, Siemens and Bigras, without reiterating the prior comments they were players spread over 8+ years. I understand the concerns, but the AVs are continuing to allow the prospects to develop. Adding Nemeth, Barberio and Cole and playing heavy minutes on the 3rd line helps the top lines remain fresh, but space for the prospects can be inserted slow into the NHL.

 

[MarkT]

Is it though? That's up for debate. When an offense-only defenseman like Barrie goes cold for a stretch, that's a big deal in the playoffs, because he certainly doesn't bring anything else. At least EJ can still be a shutdown D when he isn't scoring, Barrie without the points is a complete liability. Over the course of a regular season, it averages out, but in the playoffs your season is seven games long. Two way play gets you the distance in the playoffs.

I think Barrie's importance gets overrated by this fanbase because we just haven't seen much playoff action in a while, and his shiny numbers over the course of 82 games overahadows his dismal 4 point outing in last year's Preds series.

I think this is a fabulous point and it's a real shame it's not the majority viewpoint.

I suspect that a lot of people see that Barrie is able to do certain things at an elite level when he has the puck on his stick, and in their head that translates to him being an elite player overall. And so when someone suggests that Barrie isn't an elite player because he has some things about his game that are terrible in addition to those elite puck skills, they can't accept it.

Players have strenghts, Mack is far and away the best player on the team, but you don't play him in the D zone because he is not good defensively and because it hampers his biggest strenght.

[Ivan, I'm just using your argument as an example because many people have tried to make similar arguments in the past (so don't feel the need to reply to me unless you want me to bring up our last discussion).]

The difference between Mack and Barrie having weaknesses is that when Mack is struggling offensively, he is still able to use his speed and physicality to make a positive impact on the game. He has to be having a really bad game overall for his presence to be a net negative. Barrie, on the other hand, even when he's playing well and putting up points, sometimes struggles to have a net positive effect on the game because he can be relied on for several bad to mediocre defensive (without the puck) plays per game. So when his offensive production disappears, he has an almost purely net negative effect on the game. And the other key thing to remember is that Barrie is a defenseman, and no matter how much people like to think offense is his job, his primary role is and will always be to defend. I'm not saying he's a defensive defenseman or should be, but just as a center has more defensive responsibility than a winger (even when both players are pure offensive players), and defenseman has more defensive responsibility than a forward (even when the defenseman is a pure offensive defenseman).