Around the NHL 2012-2013 II

[The Zetterberg Era]

Holland's style changed with the Salary Cap not after he signed Hossa, you just picked then so you could discount the cup win.

Correct, he just found a way with Rafalski and Hossa. Not much different than how he approached Suter, just the outcome was more favorable. As to his plans on management, they have been virtually the same that he announced they would be back coming out of the lockout. He has a long-term view and a short-term view, all successful GMs need that.

 

[SportsballChic]

Even the Hossa signing was largely passive, wasn't it? I thought Winters called Holland to gauge interest in Hossa.

Meh, not sure how it matters. Holland wasn't afraid to make the big move to bring him here and his moves since have been noticeably low profile.

I mean not saying I agree (I think Ken Holland is the best employee the Red Wings have, including all the players) but I don't think who initiated the trade is important here so much as "wow we got Hossa" as opposed to "Oh, jeeze, we signed WHO? This is how we spend our Lidstrom money? On these old bums?"

Again, not that I agree but I don't think it matters at all who picked up the phone on that one first; calling other GMs to let them know an asset is for sale is not something new in the NHL.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Meh, not sure how it matters. Holland wasn't afraid to make the big move to bring him here and his moves since have been noticeably low profile.

I mean not saying I agree (I think Ken Holland is the best employee the Red Wings have, including all the players) but I don't think who initiated the trade is important here so much as "wow we got Hossa" as opposed to "Oh, jeeze, we signed WHO? This is how we spend our Lidstrom money? On these old bums?"

Again, not that I agree but I don't think it matters at all who picked up the phone on that one first; calling other GMs to let them know an asset is for sale is not something new in the NHL.

I thought the story was that Ken Holland was at a gas station filling up when Hossa's agent called...
To me, the story is that Holland let Hossa walk and kept Franzen instead. That is the move that really tainted this franchise.

Instead of keeping the best players, Holland chose to keep Team Sweden together.
In many ways, Holland is becoming the GM equivalent of old coach Dave Lewis. He's running a country club, based on loyalty and friendships.

 

[SportsballChic]

I thought the story was that Ken Holland was at a gas station filling up when Hossa's agent called...
To me, the story is that Holland let Hossa walk and kept Franzen instead. That is the move that really tainted this franchise.

Instead of keeping the best players, Holland chose to keep Team Sweden together.
In many ways, Holland is becoming the GM equivalent of old coach Dave Lewis. He's running a country club, based on loyalty and friendships.

Sub agent for GM? Pretty sure that happens all the time too; it's the agent's job to find a home for his client after all.

That having been said; I agree with you that obviously we should have kept Hossa. I'm not really sure how anyone couldn't in retrospect.

At the time however, I thought Hossa was a merc, Franzen was our guy and was only going to keep getting better. I mean that's the old chestnut you hear about "big power fowards" all the time; it takes them a while to develop.

Either way, yeah that was a mistake, maybe even Holland's biggest mistake of his career. I dunno that it's because of nepotism tho; I mean don't you think he would have done things differently if Suter/Parise signed on the dotted line? Were we supposed to exceed Minny's offer?

Isn't it possible that Holland didn't make a bold move because there wasn't one to be made as opposed to "he's gone soft and chicken"?

Legit not fighting, just asking why that's not also possible based on the moves he's made because that's how I see it from here.

 

[FlashyG]

I thought the story was that Ken Holland was at a gas station filling up when Hossa's agent called...
To me, the story is that Holland let Hossa walk and kept Franzen instead. That is the move that really tainted this franchise.

Instead of keeping the best players, Holland chose to keep Team Sweden together.
In many ways, Holland is becoming the GM equivalent of old coach Dave Lewis. He's running a country club, based on loyalty and friendships.

It was easily his biggest mistake in his 15 years of managing the team, but I think you're drastically overstating the size of the mistake.

Its not like he signed a guy to a multi year mega contract and had to buy him out just over a year later leaving him on the teams payroll for the next 2 decades. I highly doubt anyone decides not to sign with Detroit because their GM picked the wrong guy 5 years ago.

You must be part Finnish to hold such a distaste for Swedes

 

[RedWingsNow*]

It was easily his biggest mistake in his 15 years of managing the team, but I think you're drastically overstating the size of the mistake.

Its not like he signed a guy to a multi year mega contract and had to buy him out just over a year later leaving him on the teams payroll for the next 2 decades. I highly doubt anyone decides not to sign with Detroit because their GM picked the wrong guy 5 years ago.

You must be part Finnish to hold such a distaste for Swedes

Of for sure.
We're talking about the difference between Detroit being an elite team and Detroit being an average to above average team
(at the end of the day, Detroit lost more games than they won this year.)

It doesn't seem like there's much debate about it right now. But there were people going back as far as the Dan Cleary signing saying that if we pay too much for mid-level guys, we're going to lose out on the elite players the Red Wings will need to remain elite.

It's awesome to sign a Cleary for $600,000 and a Sammy for $600,000 and a Lilja for $700,000 and have then come in and do a good job.

Especially considering our youth wasn't ready in 2005 and we had to replace Whitney, McCarty and others.

But when they start coming looking for $1.2M and $2.8M when we've got kids willing to step up -- we need to cut the cord.

An important part of management is making tough decisions.

It appears as if finally, Ken Holland understands this.

 

[WingsOverAvs]

Holland is certainly loyal to a fault. To this day im still bothered that he opted to keep 60 games worth of 743 yr old Chris Chelios (who was a scratch in the playoffs) and shipped Quincey off when he could have stayed to learn behind Nick and Brian

 

[Winger98]

I'm still fine taking Franzen over Hossa. We've gotten similar goal production, and have a friendlier contract terms. Also, I don't see swapping Hossa for Franzen, alone, being that large of a difference maker the past few years.

Should we have found a way to keep Franzen and Hossa? Maybe, but we would have seen an even larger gutting of depth to do it.

 

[Filppula]

I'm still fine taking Franzen over Hossa. We've gotten similar goal production, and have a friendlier contract terms.

Hossa is miles better than Franzen.

 

[Heaton]

Hossa is miles better than Franzen.

I don't think anyone disputes this, at the time Franzen was signed he was much more valuable in playoff time and obviously that has changed. I changed my opinion years ago, we should've let Cleary, Filppula, Hudler, Samulesson etc... all go and kept Franzen, Hossa and Z - it's a no brainer. But Holland looked at it like he was keeping together the cup winning team, obviously the wrong decision, but I understand his thinking.

 

[Winger98]

I don't think anyone disputes this, at the time Franzen was signed he was much more valuable in playoff time and obviously that has changed. I changed my opinion years ago, we should've let Cleary, Filppula, Hudler, Samulesson etc... all go and kept Franzen, Hossa and Z - it's a no brainer. But Holland looked at it like he was keeping together the cup winning team, obviously the wrong decision, but I understand his thinking.

Are we a better team going that route, though? I'm not sold on the idea that we're any more of a contender one way or the other, and that either way you're picking your poison and taking a step back from where we were. And right now we'd have another life time deal on the books, hoping he doesn't retire and hang us with a cap hit.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'm still fine taking Franzen over Hossa. We've gotten similar goal production, and have a friendlier contract terms. Also, I don't see swapping Hossa for Franzen, alone, being that large of a difference maker the past few years.

Should we have found a way to keep Franzen and Hossa? Maybe, but we would have seen an even larger gutting of depth to do it.

For a couple years, people could make that argument.

But Hossa keeps playing great two-way hockey. The Franzen Floater is in full effect these days.

His playoff production over the last 3 years has now signficantly worse than his regular season production, which is also declining.

On top of that, his defensive game has declined. And while it was only 14 games, Franzen's team worst -7 was pretty indicative of the effort he showed these playoffs.

 

[Heaton]

Are we a better team going that route, though? I'm not sold on the idea that we're any more of a contender one way or the other, and that either way you're picking your poison and taking a step back from where we were. And right now we'd have another life time deal on the books, hoping he doesn't retire and hang us with a cap hit.

The thing is that we're looking for a Hossa right now and we had one. We wouldn't have Cleary on line 1 if we had a Hossa (I'm using Hossa in place of the word top 6 forward).

Would our team be better if we kept Datsyuk, Z, Franzen and Hossa? Yes. I felt differently about Chicago signing Hossa because I feel that guys like Ladd and Byfuglien are better and more impactful than Cleary and Filppula, maybe that's a grass is greener type of thing.

But regardless - Cleary, Filppula, Hudler, Samuelsson were all replaceable by cheaper options. The big 4 as it would've been called would've carried the load just like they are now. Maybe we would've worked in guys like Nyquist or Tatar quicker. But it's over and done with.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Are we a better team going that route, though? I'm not sold on the idea that we're any more of a contender one way or the other, and that either way you're picking your poison and taking a step back from where we were. And right now we'd have another life time deal on the books, hoping he doesn't retire and hang us with a cap hit.

Absolutely.
The other deal that killed Hossa contract was the Cleary deal..

This isn't the precap world where you can reward guys by keeping them on the team for ever.

The cap requires difficult choices. It means dumping Cleary (or not resigning him in the first place). and giving these jobs of "middle class" guys to the rookies -- ready or not.

Chicago has used a lot of rookies in their lineup to keep their core together.

Who the hell is Andrew Shaw and Marcus Kruger?These guys aren't lottery guys. They aren't even first or second round picks.

Kruger was drafted in Round 5, the same year we drafted Ferraro and Tatar in the second round.

Kruger has already played in 160 games, including 3 different NHL playofffs.

How about Andrew Shaw? A 5'10 center Chicago drafted as an overager only two years ago from the OHL. He was nothing special in the OHL. He was nothing special in the AHL.

He was drafted in round 5 in 2011. Jurco was taken in round 2 that year.
Shaw has played 85 games and 26 playoff games. He's played in 2 NHL playoff series.

Chicago isn't some basement team taking flyers on rookies. They've won 2 cups now in 4 years - relying heavily on youth.

I think Cleary resigned in 2007-08.
For 2008-09 did we have prospects ready to step in and do the job for cheap?

How close were Helm and Abdelkader? Could Ritola or Mursak have played for us? Dick Axelsson?

Did it even matter if you had youth ready...you're upgrading on Cleary with Hossa


You sign Hossa the next year -- you've already made your 1-for-1 player switch and improved.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I think the other thing that Holland did get too clever with his lifetime deals.
As nice as it would be to have Hossa, Franzen and Z -- having three lifetime deals may have been a noose around this franchises neck.
Turns out saving cap room wasn't as important as Holland though.

 

[Brick Top]

The thing is that we're looking for a Hossa right now and we had one. We wouldn't have Cleary on line 1 if we had a Hossa (I'm using Hossa in place of the word top 6 forward).

Would our team be better if we kept Datsyuk, Z, Franzen and Hossa? Yes. I felt differently about Chicago signing Hossa because I feel that guys like Ladd and Byfuglien are better and more impactful than Cleary and Filppula, maybe that's a grass is greener type of thing.

But regardless - Cleary, Filppula, Hudler, Samuelsson were all replaceable by cheaper options. The big 4 as it would've been called would've carried the load just like they are now. Maybe we would've worked in guys like Nyquist or Tatar quicker. But it's over and done with.

It's kinda hard to argue that Chicago didn't make the right call in re-signing Hossa at the expense of some relatively talented depth guys; 2 Cups in 4 years during the cap era is impressive. And I do think that the guys they lost after the 2010 Cup were better in general than the guys Holland would have had to jettison to keep Hossa.

Keeping a really dangerous top 4 set of forwards together is worth the risk of cap problems down the road- Detroit may have been able to cash in with another Cup since 2008 if they had Hossa in addition to D, Z & Franzen. There's just a ton of pressure on D & Z to produce points in the playoffs b/c their supporting cast has generally been average at best, and Franzen isn't the same playoff beast he used to be. Another star winger has been a glaring need, IMO.

 

[Winger98]

Absolutely.
The other deal that killed Hossa contract was the Cleary deal..

This isn't the precap world where you can reward guys by keeping them on the team for ever.

The cap requires difficult choices. It means dumping Cleary (or not resigning him in the first place). and giving these jobs of "middle class" guys to the rookies -- ready or not.

Chicago has used a lot of rookies in their lineup to keep their core together.

Who the hell is Andrew Shaw and Marcus Kruger?These guys aren't lottery guys. They aren't even first or second round picks.

Kruger was drafted in Round 5, the same year we drafted Ferraro and Tatar in the second round.

Kruger has already played in 160 games, including 3 different NHL playofffs.

How about Andrew Shaw? A 5'10 center Chicago drafted as an overager only two years ago from the OHL. He was nothing special in the OHL. He was nothing special in the AHL.

He was drafted in round 5 in 2011. Jurco was taken in round 2 that year.
Shaw has played 85 games and 26 playoff games. He's played in 2 NHL playoff series.

Chicago isn't some basement team taking flyers on rookies. They've won 2 cups now in 4 years - relying heavily on youth.

I think Cleary resigned in 2007-08.
For 2008-09 did we have prospects ready to step in and do the job for cheap?

How close were Helm and Abdelkader? Could Ritola or Mursak have played for us? Dick Axelsson?

Did it even matter if you had youth ready...you're upgrading on Cleary with Hossa


You sign Hossa the next year -- you've already made your 1-for-1 player switch and improved.

Helm was already up the year after Hossa left and Abdelkader played 50 games that year. Ditch Flip and Cleary to keep Hossa, Helm and Gator already in line to play significant roles, who else are you calling up in 09/10? Then our cap space was squashed again in 10/11 when Hudler came back.

And Ritola has bombed out of the NHL entirely and Axelsson still hasn't lit up the SEL, let alone the NHL. Dredge up Ryno and Lofberg next as could have beens.

And we didn't draft Kruger/Shaw, but you can have as much fun as you want with your alternate histories.

edit: about Franzen declining, he also makes around over a million less per year over a shorter term. I know it matters less for others, but I've hated these type of deals from the start, and getting those concessions is a bigger deal to me. Right now the big push to buy-out Hossa is less from immediate cap concerns and more from possible penalties.

 

[Winger98]

The thing is that we're looking for a Hossa right now and we had one. We wouldn't have Cleary on line 1 if we had a Hossa (I'm using Hossa in place of the word top 6 forward).

Would our team be better if we kept Datsyuk, Z, Franzen and Hossa? Yes. I felt differently about Chicago signing Hossa because I feel that guys like Ladd and Byfuglien are better and more impactful than Cleary and Filppula, maybe that's a grass is greener type of thing.

But regardless - Cleary, Filppula, Hudler, Samuelsson were all replaceable by cheaper options. The big 4 as it would've been called would've carried the load just like they are now. Maybe we would've worked in guys like Nyquist or Tatar quicker. But it's over and done with.

I can go as far as the wings being better with those four, but I don't think it's this night/day thing it's being made out as. And I think those four would have been more difficult to replace at that time than it would be now.

Given the Wings recent history, I wouldn't bet money on Nyquist or Tatar coming up sooner unless it was a necessity. And the other prospects we had at the time who were expected to be ready, have basically flamed out.

Then to talk about going out and signing guys, you're stepping into a fantasy land that can be twisted with whoever is writing the plot. After swapping out Hossa for Cleary and Flip, how many more moves do you have to imagine every year to remain significantly better than what we were each season? At some point, it's just ridiculous.

I agree about it being done and over with, though. I wish it would take Hudler and crawl off to some other board to waste time and space with.

 

[Heaton]

It's kinda hard to argue that Chicago didn't make the right call in re-signing Hossa at the expense of some relatively talented depth guys; 2 Cups in 4 years during the cap era is impressive. And I do think that the guys they lost after the 2010 Cup were better in general than the guys Holland would have had to jettison to keep Hossa.

Keeping a really dangerous top 4 set of forwards together is worth the risk of cap problems down the road- Detroit may have been able to cash in with another Cup since 2008 if they had Hossa in addition to D, Z & Franzen. There's just a ton of pressure on D & Z to produce points in the playoffs b/c their supporting cast has generally been average at best, and Franzen isn't the same playoff beast he used to be. Another star winger has been a glaring need, IMO.

Well it's subjective due to my personal opinions of Hossa. I think Chicago would've been a better team with the depth players over Hossa, but that's only because they already have Toews, Kane, Sharp. You replace Hossa with Ladd (who's proven to be pretty damn good on Winnipeg) and you still get 60pts and a playoff guy. Sprinkle in Byfuglien and/or Versteeg and you're a force.

Obviously this against my idea that you always keep the stars, but I think guys like Ladd and Byfuglien are more than just dime a dozen depth guys.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I can go as far as the wings being better with those four, but I don't think it's this night/day thing it's being made out as. And I think those four would have been more difficult to replace at that time than it would be now.

I think we're much better with Hossa + Franzen.
How easy has it been to matchup against the Wings in recent years.
Coach Babs keeps going with Datsyuk+Franzen for some stupid reason. Datsyuk and Hossa weren't lightout, but they were good.
If it was Franzen-Zetterberg-Whoever and Whoever-Datsyuk-Hossa... we probably win a couple extra playoff series.

Given the Wings recent history, I wouldn't bet money on Nyquist or Tatar coming up sooner unless it was a necessity. And the other prospects we had at the time who were expected to be ready, have basically flamed out.

Holland wouldn't have much choice. If you;re spending big bucks, you can't afford $3M for Sammy and $2M for Tootoo.

Then to talk about going out and signing guys, you're stepping into a fantasy land that can be twisted with whoever is writing the plot. After swapping out Hossa for Cleary and Flip, how many more moves do you have to imagine every year to remain significantly better than what we were each season? At some point, it's just ridiculous.

Even with Hossa, we'd have had cap room these last 3 years.
And if you ask me, we wouldn't have lost some of our mojo as a great destination for UFAs who want to win.

It won't ever be over and done with.

Not when Hossa is winning the cup and we're struggling to lure UFAs

 

[Heaton]

'Struggling to lure UFAs' ONLY because Holland won't pay for them. Holland could've signed Suter last year IMO if he trumped the Minny offer even by a fraction.

Holland liked to point to the New England Patriots system, but the Patriots let go of players as soon as they get expensive, the Wings don't.

 

[SportsballChic]

'Struggling to lure UFAs' ONLY because Holland won't pay for them. Holland could've signed Suter last year IMO if he trumped the Minny offer even by a fraction.

Holland liked to point to the New England Patriots system, but the Patriots let go of players as soon as they get expensive, the Wings don't.

I think we'd have to have beaten Minny's offer by a lot; close to home, with his buddy Parise.

Re: the Patriots - something tells me that decidedly less executives out there are going to be comparing themselves to the Patriots in the foreseeable future They're about 20 minutes from offering us Kraft's other two Super Bowl rings for Franzen... so he can play TE.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Helm was already up the year after Hossa left and Abdelkader played 50 games that year. Ditch Flip and Cleary to keep Hossa, Helm and Gator already in line to play significant roles, who else are you calling up in 09/10? Then our cap space was squashed again in 10/11 when Hudler came back.

If you can't call up a rookie, then you sign the bargain basement free agent -- the one who is available every year.

And Ritola has bombed out of the NHL entirely and Axelsson still hasn't lit up the SEL, let alone the NHL. Dredge up Ryno and Lofberg next as could have beens.

When you a fourth line role, every 2nd game, they're not going to be effective.
Is Ritola an NHLer? I don't think so. But he could have skated for a year or two in a depth role of some kind. Axelsson maybe wouldn't worked out. But it was a rookie contract and a roster spot. Not much.

Would it have worked? Who knows. Maybe we have two down years like the Hawks. But then the cap goes up and then maybe Axelsson or Mursak or Nyquist or Tatar are ready and contribute to your core -- and you're up again..

But you're up because you have an elite core.
Not a bunch of middle of the road, tired old veterans.

And we didn't draft Kruger/Shaw, but you can have as much fun as you want with your alternate histories.

Alternate histories?
You think Kruger is a better player with more upside than Ferraro or Tatar or Jensen or Callahan or Almquist?
We signed every single player from the 2009 draft. Good for us.
Chicago won a cup with one of their 2009 picks. Great for them

It's sad that dissecting history to see where me might learn from mistakes is considered "having fun with alternate histories"

edit: about Franzen declining, he also makes around over a million less per year over a shorter term. I know it matters less for others, but I've hated these type of deals from the start, and getting those concessions is a bigger deal to me. Right now the big push to buy-out Hossa is less from immediate cap concerns and more from possible penalties.

Well you ahead and be the last hold out on the Franzen was the right choice argument.

I'm sure Montreal still has a fan or two defending Wickeneiser over Savard.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Letang is out of his mind. Turned down 8 years, 55 mil from Pitt.

 

[SportsballChic]

Letang is out of his mind. Turned down 8 years, 55 mil from Pitt.

Wow, that was a very competitive offer on the 'Guins part. I can't see how he gets more than 7 on the open market.

Maybe he hates someone in Pittsburgh?