All Purpose Trade / Roster Building Thread V - We have no goalies?!?

[Blueline Bomber]

So he got Piet money to go to a crap team. Crap teams overpay all the time for talent to try to jump start their team. Doesn’t mean our offer wasn’t fair / comparable to other offers. Typically you are confident in your chances if you make a fair / comparable offer. Dougie chose to go to the bad team. Doesn’t mean the GM is bad or wrong for being confident.

you are hardcore reaching just to hate on the mgmt team here.

So you agree that he should have expected a "crap team" to overpay for Hamilton? And that the extra cap space we suddenly have by not signing Dougie shouldn't come as a surprise?

 

[hblueridgegal]

When Dougie made it clear from the beginning of the negotiations that he wanted a Pieterangelo-type contract, then yes, being confident you can sign him for the apparent offers we made is worthy of criticism.

AG said Dougie ghosted them at the end. If not Jersey, he was going somewhere else. He called it a failed negotiation. Kinda like the Aho one with different options.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Without privy to the actual conversations between the two parties, why are arguing over how DW should react to it?

Because we argue about stuff? Better this than that other thing

Seriously, though: when someone repeatedly says stuff that's just silly, it makes you doubt either their veracity or their sense. It's just 99% Adam Fox all over again.

Everyone lies. GMs lie. If he's lying, fine. Just pick a more plausible lie, because "golly I never thought Dougie would actually leave!" is, like, three year old levels of lying.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Look if Waddell is surprised Dougie left based on internal conversations they had, fine.

But if he never planned for an alternate way to use the cap space even if he thought things with Dougie would work out, it’s negligent to his responsibilities.

I don’t think the second statement is the case though.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

I'm going to be a bit of devil's advocate here.

Everyone is dumping on DW. But how much of the decisions made were all on his shoulders? Remember this is the BORG we have been either praising or bashing. DW is part of it and most importantly for this discussion, the public face.

Agree that the "confident" bit has been overplayed. But none of us know what's really going on behind closed doors. And he has to do some GM speak for not just other/future negotiations and well, that's part of his job.

I mean he looked uncomfortable as hell in the TDA presser. Perhaps he got voted down by the stats/$s guys yet he had to go out and defend it. Haven't seen or heard a word from Tulsky.

This argument may be 100% wrong but I am not one who is going to pile on DW at the moment.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

AG said Dougie ghosted them at the end. If not Jersey, he was going somewhere else. He called it a failed negotiation. Kinda like the Aho one with different options.

Yeah, we were ghosted because we never put forth a competitive offer, despite DW's claim that it was "comparable to the market."

Which, I believe, was stated after the Jones contract, so it was blatantly false the minute it left his mouth

 

[Lempo]

That's Don Waddell's advocate you're being.

But it's okay, blatant lying probably was your client's instruction.

 

[spockBokk]

Look if Waddell is surprised Dougie left based on internal conversations they had, fine.

But if he never planned for an alternate way to use the cap space even if he thought things with Dougie would work out, it’s negligent to his responsibilities.

I don’t think the second statement is the case though.

The rumor about them being interested in DeAngelo came out a few weeks ago. So, I agree, by them considering DeAngelo, its obvious they thought it was at least possible Hamilton was gone and they’d be able to re-purpose his allocated cap bit.

Maybe they thought they’d have already nabbed another UFA forward or had a trade or 2 fall through, so now they’re left with plan C and D options to upgrade up front.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

AG said Dougie ghosted them at the end. If not Jersey, he was going somewhere else. He called it a failed negotiation. Kinda like the Aho one with different options.

This is the more troubling issue, because if true, it implies that DW is misunderstanding the nature of these negotiations and how he's being perceived.

If you've ever negotiated with an employer to stay when you've got offers on the table, you know this feeling. "Wait a minute, I was responsible for driving this important project, and you started me at $Y, and now that I'm telling you that I've got multiple offers starting at $Y + 20%, and you're telling me you'll have to think about it? Well, f*** that and f*** you and goodbye."

But I don't actually believe this is true. I believe this is mostly spin to mollify customers who are mad that Dougie is gone.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I'm going to be a bit of devil's advocate here.

Everyone is dumping on DW. But how much of the decisions made were all on his shoulders? Remember this is the BORG we have been either praising or bashing. DW is part of it and most importantly for this discussion, the public face.

Agree that the "confident" bit has been overplayed. But none of us know what's really going on behind closed doors.

I mean he looked uncomfortable as hell in the TDA presser. Perhaps he got voted down by the stats/$s guys yet he had to go out and defend it. Haven't seen or heard a word from Tulsky.

This argument may be 100% wrong but I am not one who is going to pile on DW at the moment.

Fair. DW is just a proxy for "the organization" here because he's the one at the mic. But that's his job, so

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Fair. DW is just a proxy for "the organization" here because he's the one at the mic. But that's his job, so

Lol. I had edited for part of his job before I saw this.

 

[FlyingSquirrels]

I don't think TD will ever allow these guys to pay ANY defenseman 9m per year. I guarantee he does not see that as wise investing. His "we'll never draft a D-man in the 1st round" comment leads me to believe he values the position less that F. I also think he commented previously he'd rather lose 6-5 rather than 2-1....which again diminishes the defensive aspect of the game. Just using my memory here, so I may be recollecting incorrectly.

 

[hblueridgegal]

DW has been looking rough. Sounds like quite a few negotiations went south in addition to the controversy. If you listen to the end of the draft presser, he touches on the Svech negotiation issue but kinda mumbles. Sounds like he says money but then says it will get resolved. I will leave that to someone with better ears than me.

If they're striking out repeatedly on acquisitions and re-signings, I hope they acknowledge and learn from what's transpiring.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Because we argue about stuff? Better this than that other thing

Seriously, though: when someone repeatedly says stuff that's just silly, it makes you doubt either their veracity or their sense. It's just 99% Adam Fox all over again.

Everyone lies. GMs lie. If he's lying, fine. Just pick a more plausible lie, because "golly I never thought Dougie would actually leave!" is, like, three year old levels of lying.

even you lie? *world shatters around me*

 

[Navin R Slavin]

We’re talking about a 4-4.5million difference when looking at state taxes difference. Players have sacrificed more than that before to stay on a winning team.

Yzerman made TB into what it is by asking players to take less to win. Yzerman was a genius. Only Carolina is cheap and their GM is confident idiot because we do the same.

Ah, but the difference is that Yzerman was *successful* in convincing his key players to stay for less.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

even you lie? *world shatters around me*

Only every day of my life.

Mrs. Hank: "are you mad at me for something?"

Me: "oh no, not at all. Nope. I'm just, uh, tired and cranky."

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I'm going to be a bit of devil's advocate here.

Everyone is dumping on DW. But how much of the decisions made were all on his shoulders? Remember this is the BORG we have been either praising or bashing. DW is part of it and most importantly for this discussion, the public face.

Agree that the "confident" bit has been overplayed. But none of us know what's really going on behind closed doors.

I mean he looked uncomfortable as hell in the TDA presser. Perhaps he got voted down by the stats/$s guys yet he had to go out and defend it. Haven't seen or heard a word from Tulsky.

This argument may be 100% wrong but I am not one who is going to pile on DW at the moment.

That's the thing. The offer we made Dougie was correct (IMO) in terms of his value to this particular team. I had him somewhere between the $6-7 million range. So if that's where the stat guys put his value, I don't disagree in the slightest.

But I also knew that offer wasn't going to be anywhere close to what other teams would be offering him, so unless Hamilton was willing to take a serious discount to stay with the team, he was more than likely gone.

I assume DW was also smart enough to realize this as well. After all, he was much more "in the know" about the situation and all I had were reports off Twitter.

Given that, the stuff he's being saying about the negotiations and the aftermath thereof come off as disingenuous. Our offer likely wasn't competitive, there should have been little confidence we could sign him, and we shouldn't be surprised we have all this extra space after failing to do so.

If DW had stated at any point "Hey, we put forth our offer, but it's looking unlikely that we're going to change his mind. We'll keep trying until the final minutes", that certainly comes off better than "I'm confident we'll sign him. Our offer is competitive."

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Ah, but the difference is that Yzerman was *successful* in convincing his key players to stay for less.

I know this is said with humor, but I have no doubt the spirit of Yzerman’s negotiations was about staying and building something, and the spirit of Borg negotiations is about how smart we are in knowing you are not worth more than $6,873,092 per year on a 7 year deal so that’s our line and you should take it because that’s how much you’re worth.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

DW has been looking rough. Sounds like quite a few negotiations went south in addition to the controversy. If you listen to the end of the draft presser, he touches on the Svech negotiation issue but kinda mumbles. Sounds like he says money but then says it will get resolved. I will leave that to someone with better ears than me.

If they're striking out repeatedly on acquisitions and re-signings, I hope they acknowledge and learn from what's transpiring.

TBH, between the draft, expansion draft, and the off-season, a lot of the management teams are tired. They have spent a ton of time at work / working over the last 3 weeks. It beats ya down eventually.

This off-season was more tense than others because of the expansion draft being thrown in.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I know this is said with humor, but I have no doubt the spirit of Yzerman’s negotiations was about staying and building something, and the spirit of Borg negotiations is about how smart we are in knowing you are not worth more than $6,873,092 per year on a 7 year deal so that’s our line and you should take it because that’s how much you’re worth.

It may have sounded funny, but I was serious, and I agree with you. It's a serious perception issue at this point, and perception becomes reality.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

That's the thing. The offer we made Dougie was correct (IMO) in terms of his value to this particular team. I had him somewhere between the $6-7 million range. So if that's where the stat guys put his value, I don't disagree in the slightest.

But I also knew that offer wasn't going to be anywhere close to what other teams would be offering him, so unless Hamilton was willing to take a serious discount to stay with the team, he was more than likely gone.

I assume DW was also smart enough to realize this as well. After all, he was much more "in the know" about the situation and all I had were reports off Twitter.

Given that, the stuff he's being saying about the negotiations and the aftermath thereof come off as disingenuous. Our offer likely wasn't competitive, there should have been little confidence we could sign him, and we shouldn't be surprised we have all this extra space after failing to do so.

If DW had stated at any point "Hey, we put forth our offer, but it's looking unlikely that we're going to change his mind. We'll keep trying until the final minutes", that certainly comes off better than "I'm confident we'll sign him. Our offer is competitive."

I agree. But again who knows what TD or his new proxy was wanting him to say.

Not that I am into conspiracies.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I don't think TD will ever allow these guys to pay ANY defenseman 9m per year. I guarantee he does not see that as wise investing. His "we'll never draft a D-man in the 1st round" comment leads me to believe he values the position less that F. I also think he commented previously he'd rather lose 6-5 rather than 2-1....which again diminishes the defensive aspect of the game. Just using my memory here, so I may be recollecting incorrectly.

Are we saying TD here or are we saying our player evaluation?

We do value higher scoring because it sells tickets. The NFL and NBA have realized it and have been killing defenses with rule changes ever since. People come to see action and scoring is action for the non traditional fan. I dont think it is an attack on defense in general.

I also dont think the not taking a defender in the first round (which he has since walked back slightly) is a dig on defenders. Even draft picks have value. You diminish the return on your pick's value if you have to wait 3-5 years before you see an adequate return. Forwards generally develop faster and so you see a return on your investment sooner. The value in first round picks is in forwards then. 2-7th rounds are expected to make the league far less than the first. I think you can add all of their percentages up and it is less than a first rounder. So, you can draft a goalie who can take 4-7 years and a defender there and feel good about waiting for development to takes its course.

 

[hblueridgegal]

After what's transpired over the past week starting with Ned, I would guess the FO's PR credibility score is at a low point. I have been surprised by the way that they have messaged the changes and events - not much effort to assuage. Resulting in Seeing is Believing as the new mantra that covers a number of Canes topics on social.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

After what's transpired over the past week starting with Ned, I would guess the FO's PR credibility score is at a low point. I have been surprised by the way that they have messaged the changes and events - not much effort to assuage. Resulting in Seeing is Believing as the new mantra that covers a number of Canes topics on social.

Yes. This is the first time the new regime has had to deal with this much negativity. Don't think they were prepared. They will need to do much to recover especially if we end up being a mediocre team this year.

 

[AD Skinner]

They will need to do much to recover especially if we end up being a mediocre team this year.

If they don't add at least one more legit forward, thats looking more and more likely