All Purpose PK Subban Discussion Thread Part 2

[NoNecksCurse]

That reference to NBCSN is spot on. I have friends who do the same thing. Anyone who watched this team in the playoffs and thinks Subban is the problem needs to go watch again imo.

With that said, if I’m Poile then everyone is on the block if the price is right.

exactly. JOFA should even be on the block if someone calls.

 

[glenngineer]

I'll ask one question, Jamie Benn going back to retrieve a puck in our defensive zone and you could Ellis or Subban going back to defend him, who do you pick?

If you're going to move one defender, the two choices are Subban and Ellis. While the return may be larger by moving Subban, we're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Subban is the better playoff performer and that's what will win us a Cup. There is no reason to give up Subban at this point. He was one of the few guys that actually went at Benn during the playoffs and that's the type of player I want on our team. Ellis is slow, small and soft. If he had elite skating ability, I'd say let's think about this but he doesn't. He needs to go and the sooner the better.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I'll ask one question, Jamie Benn going back to retrieve a puck in our defensive zone and you could Ellis or Subban going back to defend him, who do you pick?

If you're going to move one defender, the two choices are Subban and Ellis. While the return may be larger by moving Subban, we're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Subban is the better playoff performer and that's what will win us a Cup. There is no reason to give up Subban at this point. He was one of the few guys that actually went at Benn during the playoffs and that's the type of player I want on our team. Ellis is slow, small and soft. If he had elite skating ability, I'd say let's think about this but he doesn't. He needs to go and the sooner the better.

And I think the other thing to consider even on the contract front... people say, oh, but you could save sooo much cap space moving Subban's gaudy $9M... except... this is a mere $2.75M more than Ellis... and I have complete fear that at some point in the next !8 YEARS! we're going to feel a lot more pain over Ellis' contract than we do today about Subban's. If Subban doesn't bounce back, well, at least he just has 3 years left. And if his trade value isn't there, you can fearlessly expose him to Seattle with just the 1 year left on his deal. But if they move Subban, what will they actually do with Ellis instead? How will the protection list shape up - will they risk Fabbro if he hasn't quite turned the corner after 2 seasons? Will they go 4-4 to hold onto Ellis and lose somebody up front? I can imagine the pain dragging out a lot longer on the Ellis front.

 

[TitansVolsPreds615]

Trading Ellis would damage the Preds reputation in a big way. That's why you'll see them try to avoid doing it if at all possible. Dont think Josi isnt paying attention.

 

[triggrman]

Ellis is by far our weakest link in the top 4 and it's not really close. I do not think for a minute though Subban was better than either Josi or Ekholm this year. It won't bother me if we trade Ellis and Subban, but if we have to keep one, Subban is the better defender but make no mistake, both are slow.

 

[triggrman]

If you're getting a top player for Subban, I'm good with it, it has to be a difference maker though, and established difference maker. You're not going to get that with Ellis.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I'll ask one question, Jamie Benn going back to retrieve a puck in our defensive zone and you could Ellis or Subban going back to defend him, who do you pick?

If you're going to move one defender, the two choices are Subban and Ellis. While the return may be larger by moving Subban, we're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Subban is the better playoff performer and that's what will win us a Cup. There is no reason to give up Subban at this point. He was one of the few guys that actually went at Benn during the playoffs and that's the type of player I want on our team. Ellis is slow, small and soft. If he had elite skating ability, I'd say let's think about this but he doesn't. He needs to go and the sooner the better.

And I think the return being "bigger" for Subban is really only a benefit if it means a higher quality rather than quantity of return. I just don't see a lot of teams wanting to move the caliber of forward we would be seeking in return.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Trading Ellis would damage the Preds reputation in a big way. That's why you'll see them try to avoid doing it if at all possible. Dont think Josi isnt paying attention.

Hopefully Josi and Ekholm WOULD be paying attention. Like, don't suck and we won't trade you.

 

[GeauxPreds1]

Trading Ellis would damage the Preds reputation in a big way. That's why you'll see them try to avoid doing it if at all possible. Dont think Josi isnt paying attention.

Josi was playing with him you would think he seen the laziness and understands if we move him. Plus I'd give josi a ntc if need be to make him feel secure

 

[TitansVolsPreds615]

Josi was playing with him you would think he seen the laziness and understands if we move him. Plus I'd give josi a ntc if need be to make him feel secure

That's a slippery slope. You give one guy a NMC and everyone else is going to start asking for it. Poile has basically always been able to say no one else has it, that's not how we do things here. (Besides Pekka of course).

 

[NoNecksCurse]

no one gets a NMC. johansen, ellis, turris.. we had the option to give subban one and told him to kick rocks. the precedent is set, no NMC.

 

[GeauxPreds1]

If you're getting a top player for Subban, I'm good with it, it has to be a difference maker though, and established difference maker. You're not going to get that with Ellis.

I'd trade Ellis for a top 4 stay at home defender and pretty nice prospect. Larsson and Puljujärvi for Ellis would be a nice trade imo. Josi would benefit a lot playing with that type of defensemen. I just don't think him and Ellis is a good pairing

 

[triggrman]

That's a slippery slope. You give one guy a NMC and everyone else is going to start asking for it. Poile has basically always been able to say no one else has it, that's not how we do things here. (Besides Pekka of course).

We've given others just traded them before they kicked in

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I'd trade Ellis for a top 4 stay at home defender and pretty nice prospect. Larsson and Puljujärvi for Ellis would be a nice trade imo. Josi would benefit a lot playing with that type of defensemen. I just don't think him and Ellis is a good pairing

Pulju looks like he has high bust potential and if Ellis doesn't repeat his craptastic year (Larsson was also terrible last year) than this is a straight downgrade just for the sake of moving Ellis. Not opposed to moving Ellis or Subban but it needs to be for value and I don't think this is great asset management. Yamamoto instead of Pulju is not an attractive variation.

 

[Armourboy]

Pulju looks like he has high bust potential and if Ellis doesn't repeat his craptastic year (Larsson was also terrible last year) than this is a straight downgrade just for the sake of moving Ellis. Not opposed to moving Ellis or Subban but it needs to be for value and I don't think this is great asset management. Yamamoto instead of Pulju is not an attractive variation.

If this is the Ellis we are getting though moving that contract has value alone.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

If this is the Ellis we are getting though moving that contract has value alone.

Maybe, but I'm not ready to make that leap based on a year of subpar play, especially considering just how much of that has been going on in that timeframe. As a RHD that can move the puck he's going to maintain a certain amount of value, especially if other teams think they can shelter his short-comings (assuming his play doesn't pick back up to pre-last postseason levels).

 

[Roman Yoshi]

It really all depends on what return we like better. Subban probably gives us more but Ellis is the link. All comes down to ROI.

In my mind, however, Turris is the one who has to go. It seems like organization gave up on him and he gave up on them. A mutual split is probably in everyone's best interests

 

[Legionnaire11]

In my mind, however, Turris is the one who has to go. It seems like organization gave up on him and he gave up on them.

It does???

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

It does???

Yeah, I'm not sure I see that part of it. I liked the "Turris has got to go" theme in RY's post. But I can totally see the organization not giving up on him, and I have no reason whatsoever to think he's giving up on anything at all himself. The way he played, the organization could have scratched him even more frequently and bumped him more permanently out of his 2nd line chances. But he kept getting those looks right up until the end. I think the organization showed more than fair faith/hope in him despite how badly he played. And for all that I have been unimpressed with what Turris brings on the ice, I fully expect he's a committed pro and a good guy and wants to do everything in his power to recover his game, win, and win as a Pred. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to upgrade on him, though.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I'd trade Ellis for a top 4 stay at home defender and pretty nice prospect. Larsson and Puljujärvi for Ellis would be a nice trade imo. Josi would benefit a lot playing with that type of defensemen. I just don't think him and Ellis is a good pairing

Yeah, as those who frequent the trade board know, I'm totally up for this option.

And I don't think Ellis had a season that was all that "craptastic"... he got some points, was weak in his own zone, and terrible in the playoffs. I think that's pretty much who he is for us. And who he will be for 8 more years - at best. Just getting slower and maybe suffering a few more injuries along the way. I think he's a downright TERRIBLE choice to play with Josi, and to use in all situations 25 minutes a game, and he always will be. This sounds harsh, but like I've also posted I think he can also be a good player in the league and worth his contract. If you need a #1 RD as your primary PP point man, and you have a bigger defensively-capable LD to pair him with, no reason he can't play 22 minutes a night, score 50-60 points, and be worth every penny of his contract. But that's not our team's situation. It might be Edmonton's.

I think Larsson could be exactly what the doctor ordered as a partner for Josi. He's big, mobile, and of course the contract situation is advantageous. He did not have a good season. I didn't pay any real attention to Edmonton this year. A couple years ago when they were in the playoffs and we were starting our run I watched some of their games and thought he was really good. That's probably the only time I really paid attention, and it was a while ago. So I can't entirely vouch for him with any confidence. But he's young and that was just 2 years ago. 100% for sure I would take that version of Larsson as fulfilling my "vision" with this trade. That version of Larsson would be an upgrade on Ellis for our team's situation, anyway. I mean, even a bad GM couldn't trade Taylor Hall for him if there wasn't something there, right? Right?

And I agree that Yamamoto has likely surpassed Puljujarvi value-wise now too. Puljujarvi failed to progess and now has the post-surgery recovery ahead of him, and could be a complete writeoff. Whereas Yamamoto is basically right on target relative to his draft ranking. That said, Yamamoto is also a 5'8" RW and where does that project into our lineup? Arvy isn't going anywhere, Grimaldi just stepped up nicely, Tolvanen is coming... hence I've said what the heck, why not swing for the fences on a possible miracle recovery by Puljujarvi? He's 21, 6'4/223. That'd be a nicer fit to our RW mix than Yamamoto. Granted, it might take a miracle - gotta check those medical reports first at least. But to me, we're already winning (for our needs anyway, and contracts) on the Larsson/Ellis swap, so the prospect addition is just gravy. Perfect opportunity to take a homerun swing on Puljujarvi, no real loss if it doesn't pan out.

 

[Dave is a killer]

... This is why it'd be bad to trade Ellis, no one will ever sign here again, just the opinion of a NHL writer.

 

[Predsanddead24]

... This is why it'd be bad to trade Ellis, no one will ever sign here again, just the opinion of a NHL writer.

At the same time though what is the point in not adding a NTC into a contract if we're going to be afraid to move them because of the ramifications it may have on future contracts. I also disagree with the idea that Ellis took a hometown discount to stay here. As of now Ellis will be the 21st highest paid defenseman next season so its not like he isn't being paid accordingly. He also signed a very long contract where he will almost certainly not live up to the pay he will be receiving. I'd agree its maybe not the best look to trade a guy before his contract kicks in, but its not like its necessarily a unique situation. For instance PK Subban got traded to us two days before his NMC kicked in (although he was a couple years into the contract) and we refused to honor that NMC. I've never seen discussion of that as a negative for us or Montreal though.

 

[Soundgarden]

... This is why it'd be bad to trade Ellis, no one will ever sign here again, just the opinion of a NHL writer.

He earned that contract with his play in previous years, there's a case to be made that we've given him more than he was actually worth, but his play this year was not worth the price tag. These guys are professionals, they know that they can't just get paid and float.

I don't think it'll affect how UFAs view us a destination, at least it shouldn't.

 

[glenngineer]

He signed a $50 million contract. I don't feel bad for him if they decide to move him. If a player asks why'd you move him, all Poile has to do is show him the Benn play from the playoffs and guys will be like, yeah, I see your point. You had to get bigger and stronger on the blue line. It's a business.

Also remember, he is one of the leaders of the team. He more than likely asked Poile to keep this team together for another shot at the brass ring and they failed miserably. I'm sorry but Poile doesn't owe any of these guys any loyalty after what they wanted and the effort they exerted this entire season and playoffs. These guys basically didn't show up for game 4 or 5. If you can't show up for a playoff game, all bets are off in my eyes.

 

[GeauxPreds1]

He signed a $50 million contract. I don't feel bad for him if they decide to move him. If a player asks why'd you move him, all Poile has to do is show him the Benn play from the playoffs and guys will be like, yeah, I see your point. You had to get bigger and stronger on the blue line. It's a business.

Also remember, he is one of the leaders of the team. He more than likely asked Poile to keep this team together for another shot at the brass ring and they failed miserably. I'm sorry but Poile doesn't owe any of these guys any loyalty after what they wanted and the effort they exerted this entire season and playoffs. These guys basically didn't show up for game 4 or 5. If you can't show up for a playoff game, all bets are off in my eyes.

Another point is the preds desperately need top 6 help and poile shouldn't limit his assets to get that regardless of the situation. You wouldn't be a good gm if someone came to you with a player that would bolster your top 6 and give you much needed scoring help for Ellis( a position of strength) and you say ah well I just signed this guy so I can't. Plus with the expansion draft coming up making necessary moves because of it is understandable