All Purpose PK Subban Discussion Thread Part 2

[drwpreds]

The hate for PK existed well before we got to whatever version of him you're describing. So it's obviously not rooted to his performance/$.

Exactly

 

[zhok]

So it's obviously not rooted to his performance/$.

Yes, it also has to do with the media showboating he does (more than any player in the league). That can rub people the wrong way, and leaves him more open to criticism when he doesn't play well. Or, elbows to MacKinnon's head can rub Avs fans the wrong way. It's a culmination of everything.

I have seen very few, if any, Preds fans "hate" PK. I personally expect more of him. He's the NHL highest paid defenseman and playing no where like it. He's only 30 years old and in serious physical decline. That should not be happening, and that's on him. Disappointment, not hate.

 

[LCPreds]

Yes, it also has to do with the media showboating he does (more than any player in the league). That can rub people the wrong way, and leaves him more open to criticism when he doesn't play well. Or, elbows to MacKinnon's head can rub Avs fans the wrong way. It's a culmination of everything.

I have seen very few, if any, Preds fans "hate" PK. I personally expect more of him. He's the NHL highest paid defenseman and playing no where like it. He's only 30 years old and in serious physical decline. That should not be happening, and that's on him. Disappointment, not hate.

Disappointment regarding play relative to pay is one thing. I assume it's a different adjective for items listed in your first paragraph. Interesting that you call his love of media to be "showboating" though. Not sure if that is a personal take or your projection of what others might perceive. I'm polar opposite of that line of thinking. Hockey is super boring in the media and the sport could use more PKs in the media not less.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I think I would take "showboating" and that kind of more flamboyant personality on a case by case basis. I'm sure there have been some more flamboyant personalities in the past that I may not necessarily have cottoned to. In PK's case, watching the whole picture of what he does, I'm good with it. Because it really seems like it's just a byproduct of his passion for the game and that he fundamentally has a good heart. There might be some guys out there looking for attention purely out of selfishness and their own narcissism. Yet they might tend to disappear when the going gets tough. PK seems to wear his heart on his sleeve, and end of the day he shows up for the battle and puts everything on the line. It may look a little flamboyant at first, but once you get used to it and see all sides of what he's doing and how he speaks, it passes the sniff test for me. Folks make up their minds on him though, and I find you can't hardly ever budge them off it once they have done so.

 

[Armourboy]

Just heard on NHL radio that apparently PK has heard something that leads him to believe he will not be with the Preds next season.

 

[drwpreds]

Yes, it also has to do with the media showboating he does (more than any player in the league). That can rub people the wrong way, and leaves him more open to criticism when he doesn't play well.

Whenever I hear people spout out this criticism, I just shake my head. Just my opinion here, but that is a YOU problem, not a Subban problem.

So if, just as an example, Forsberg and Subban both completely stink up a playoff series, Subban deserves more criticism because he has an outgoing personality and "showboats"?? That is ridiculous.

Heaven forbid anyone has a personality in hockey.

In the world of sports, only in the NHL is that even remotely an issue.

Anyone who thinks his performance is affected by his "showboating"? Well, agree to disagree on that. I bet you any amount of money there isn't a player on the Preds roster who trains any more than he does.

Again, just my opinion and I am only speaking for myself, but we need more PK's in the NHL, not less.

But, we have beaten this horse to death so many times there is no need in further discussing it. People have their minds made up on him and that's just the way its always going to be.

 

[LCPreds]

Folks make up their minds on him though, and I find you can't hardly ever budge them off it once they have done so.

Fully agree. I see it in my friends who have basically been against him since he arrived.

 

[triggrman]

He did way more self promotion stuff this year, one of his worse in his career. Maybe spend less time in front of a camera and more time training.

 

[LCPreds]

He did way more self promotion stuff this year, one of his worse in his career. Maybe spend less time in front of a camera and more time training.

Worst take ever. Get back to your lawn.

 

[loudi94]

The hate for PK existed well before we got to whatever version of him you're describing. So it's obviously not rooted to his performance/$.

There seems to be two PKs. There’s the one that the public sees. He’s awesome. The other PK, depending on who you ask and how plugged in that person is, is not as likeable. He’s always been polarizing. Over the years it’s been impossible to dismiss either assessment of him.

 

[triggrman]

Worst take ever. Get back to your lawn.

Okay, chief.

I'm sure you know way more than anyone else here.

So what you're telling me is, that Subban's season was just fine and that he didn't do more promotional stuff? Yeah, great take.

How about you give an actual breakdown of Subban's season for us so we can know where you stand.

Here's mine.

His speed was awful, his decision making was questionable at best and at times his whining and consistent exaggerations on the ice are disgraceful to the game of hockey.

So sick of the Subbanites thinking that people hate Subban for off the ice stuff only. I hate him because of his on the ice actions. I hate that he's our slowest defenseman yet is the highest paid. I hate the "pest" crap, and the refs don't even buy it from him anymore, embellishments are weak and for lesser talented players.

On this board, the Subban homers that think he does no wrong make me hate him even more.

 

[LCPreds]

There seems to be two PKs. There’s the one that the public sees. He’s awesome. The other PK, depending on who you ask and how plugged in that person is, is not as likeable. He’s always been polarizing. Over the years it’s been impossible to dismiss either assessment of him.

Takes like this are where the problem exists.

"The other PK, depending on who you ask and how plugged in that person is, is not as likeable."

Who are we talking about here?

 

[LCPreds]

Okay, chief.

I'm sure you know way more than anyone else here.

So what you're telling me is, that Subban's season was just fine and that he didn't do more promotional stuff? Yeah, great take.

What I'm saying is you have no idea how much he trained. So saying "train more" has no basis since you have no idea what you're measuring against. You're just spouting off the typical anti-PK hot take. I'm willing to admit I know nothing of PK's training therefore would never claim to know he should train more or less. Hell maybe he hurt himself due to over training.

You've now edited your post and basically shown that you just don't like the guy. His play is one thing, which I agree was down this year just like most of the roster, but you seem to not enjoy his personality or play style in general. And that's fine, his brand is certainly not for everyone (in hockey especially).

 

[GoldOnGold]

From: Autopsy: How The Predators Lost The War

P.K. Subban was the best Predator by a country mile, except for maybe Pekka Rinne. Subban dominated the Stars in terms of quantity with a 59.92% shot attempt share 62.86% shot share. Quality is where he shined though, as Subban produced a 58.82% scoring chance share and 57.41% high danger chance share.

No one played like Subban. He had the best on-ice stats of any defender while starting in the defensive zone more than any of his peers. His goal share was bad with four scored and seven against, but his expected goals was quite literally the opposite, 7.13 for and 4.24 against. This is easily explained though, as he faced the toughest competition of anyone on the club.
From my personal stats tracked, Subban excited the zone with possession like a machine. His passing ability was on full display and it didn’t disappoint.

 

[RickP]

The weird thing about Subban's season is at times (especially since February), he looked very good offensively, probably the best he's looked since joining the Preds IMO. His offensive advanced stats were the best of his career. Yet he had the worst production of his career... Is that just bad luck? Or is it because he had his best stretch when the Preds forwards were all in a slump? Or is it the good old EA cover curse? Many athletes who appeared on the cover of an EA video game had a terrible year the following season... lol I don't believe in those things, but you have to admit it's a funny coincidence.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

From: Autopsy: How The Predators Lost The War

P.K. Subban was the best Predator by a country mile, except for maybe Pekka Rinne. Subban dominated the Stars in terms of quantity with a 59.92% shot attempt share 62.86% shot share. Quality is where he shined though, as Subban produced a 58.82% scoring chance share and 57.41% high danger chance share.

No one played like Subban. He had the best on-ice stats of any defender while starting in the defensive zone more than any of his peers. His goal share was bad with four scored and seven against, but his expected goals was quite literally the opposite, 7.13 for and 4.24 against. This is easily explained though, as he faced the toughest competition of anyone on the club.
From my personal stats tracked, Subban excited the zone with possession like a machine. His passing ability was on full display and it didn’t disappoint.

I think the Preds would be making a big mistake trading PK for a forward right now. At least after this nice late-season resurgence gives us our hope (if not faith) back in Subban, I think we really need to consider what the defence without him might look like. Especially in the playoffs, based on the last 3 years. Fabbro may have looked good too, but handing over the keys on RD to him and Ellis and Irwin/Weber would be risky.

I know Poile with his mutual loyalty rewards program is not at all likely to trade Ellis. But it just seems like such an obvious better option to do that. If you go by what has happened on the ice these last two playoffs especially. Getting back on top in the playoffs is a big hurdle the team has to overcome. And it seems like Subban is the only guy with a firm idea of how to do that.

He's probably too mercurial to wear a letter, not sure you can exactly call what he does "leadership", but he does show a lot of fire and heart and consistency out there in the playoffs that we've been lacking from a lot of other players. Stuff we need a whole lot more of, not less. People can decide to like his personality or dislike it based on whatever floats their boat I guess, but I don't think anybody can argue that he hasn't shown up on the ice in the playoffs. Every time.

 

[LCPreds]

Yep, this basically summarizes exactly what I saw in the late part of the season and definitely in the playoffs.

Pk will be a prime candidate to move in order to shake things up but I’ll be surprised if that move yields the results we’re all hoping to see in the coming seasons.

 

[drwpreds]

He's probably too mercurial to wear a letter, not sure you can exactly call what he does "leadership", but he does show a lot of fire and heart and consistency out there in the playoffs that we've been lacking from a lot of other players. Stuff we need a whole lot more of, not less. People can decide to like his personality or dislike it based on whatever floats their boat I guess, but I don't think anybody can argue that he hasn't shown up on the ice in the playoffs. Every time.

Just my opinion but I think he should have an A on his jersey. Craig Smith as well. Those two guys for me show more leadership than some who have a letter.

 

[GoldOnGold]

I think the Preds would be making a big mistake trading PK for a forward right now. At least after this nice late-season resurgence gives us our hope (if not faith) back in Subban, I think we really need to consider what the defence without him might look like. Especially in the playoffs, based on the last 3 years. Fabbro may have looked good too, but handing over the keys on RD to him and Ellis and Irwin/Weber would be risky.

I know Poile with his mutual loyalty rewards program is not at all likely to trade Ellis. But it just seems like such an obvious better option to do that. If you go by what has happened on the ice these last two playoffs especially. Getting back on top in the playoffs is a big hurdle the team has to overcome. And it seems like Subban is the only guy with a firm idea of how to do that.

He's probably too mercurial to wear a letter, not sure you can exactly call what he does "leadership", but he does show a lot of fire and heart and consistency out there in the playoffs that we've been lacking from a lot of other players. Stuff we need a whole lot more of, not less. People can decide to like his personality or dislike it based on whatever floats their boat I guess, but I don't think anybody can argue that he hasn't shown up on the ice in the playoffs. Every time.

The same article argues that Ellis and Josi had terrible series:

In the regular season, the Predators gave up 8.59 high danger chances per game but surrendered 10.83 per game in the playoffs. Roman Josi and Ryan Ellis were the biggest culprits in this regard. They were on the ice for 28 of Dallas’ total 65, that’s unacceptable from your “top unit”.
Josi and Ellis had terrible series, they faced the second line for the majority of the series. No disrespect to Roope Hintz and Jamie Benn, but I’d much rather face them than Tyler Seguin and Alex Radulov, who were both held to almost nothing when Subban and Ekholm were on the ice. Josi and Ellis were both held to sub 50% on ice numbers despite starting 59.49% of shifts in the offensive zone. Ellis might as well played in the defensive zone without a stick because he couldn’t exit the zone to save his life, meanwhile, Josi barely exited the zone 60% of the time, and that’s including dump outs.

 

[GoldOnGold]

The Josi-Ellis pairing has now been terrible in the playoffs for three seasons straight. They should try Josi - Subban and Ellis - Ekholm for a sustained period of time.

 

[bdub24]

I thought Josi did really well. Ellis and Eckholm were the liabilities this post-season

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

The Josi-Ellis pairing has now been terrible in the playoffs for three seasons straight. They should try Josi - Subban and Ellis - Ekholm for a sustained period of time.

If they keep them all, that is. Although I think it just again goes to show where the weak link is. In reality we have a totally excellent duo in Ekholm-Subban. But now we have to think about breaking that up, why... because there is a problem with how our top-4 balances out in general.

I'm not sure Josi-Subban is entirely ideal either. They always back away from it. Although now you come also to the problem with coaching, where Lavy has been there long enough to make up his mind on certain players, combos, and there are certain things somebody new might have been more open to trying.

 

[PredsV82]

The bottom line is it wont be PKs personality or anything else non ice related that determines his future here. This team is desperate for more offense and a better top 6. Acquiring one or two more top 6 forwards will either require trading a valuable asset and/or dumping some salary. Subban is the top candidate for both of those scenarios.

That said, I dont see Poile giving him away as cap dump. If he cant get a decent return he will move someone else.

 

[Armourboy]

I guess some people just forget he was injured in the first part of the season, to a point where he openly admitted that he was unable to do his normal training because of that injury. The further he got away from that injury the better his game got.

I'm always amused that people think players can't balance doing promotions and playing hockey. Its especially amusing when much of it was done while he was injured or during the all star break. It's also amusing that in every other sport no one blinks an eye at it, yet in hockey its basically blasphemy.

I worry about what I see on the ice, and everything I saw was an injured player early in the season that finally had to shut it down and who's play got better from that point forward.

 

[Jarnberg]

Subban has been our best overall defensemen for the past three offseasons; since acquiring him we've gone to the Stanley Cup final, won two division titles and a presidents trophy. Yes that's not all because of him and we all want the bigger prize but Subban is far down the list of concerns, especially when your leading scorer is Rocco Grimaldi. His defensive numbers are some of the best on the team. His offensive output was down this year of course but the league worst PP will do that.

Anyone who rates Subban poorly because he 'promotes himself', whatever that means, holy bias.. I think the coaching staff knows much, much more about his intensity in training than we do. If he didn't train hard enough because he spent a few seconds tweeting I'm sure the coaching staff would put a stop to it.