Post-Game Talk: #35 | FLYERS (A) vs. Sabres (H) | Wednesday, Mar. 31, 2021 | Loss 6-1

[Starat327]

This is worse than the Flyers

Ive gotten used to it, but yeah -- its not great.

Worse than Flyers is probably a bit extreme, though.

 

[deadhead]

I think there's some exaggeration going on.
Flyers have had two seasons,
pre-COVID where they played like crap but got a lot of puck luck.
Post-COVID where they played much better, but a few players made too many mistakes and the goalies were horrid (you can only blame some on the defense, when you can't stop unscreened shots through your body (not perfect upper corner shots) from 20', you shouldn't be a NHL goalie.

I'm only concerned with post-COVID break play b/c I think the first month was "off" due to a one week training camp and adjustments that in a normal season wouldn't cause that much concern. All the metrics say the team turned it around after the break, yet they're getting blown out on a regular basis?

Couts - hip has been a real issue
G - a God, but only a limited minutes God
Voracek - his play has fallen off, his scoring is being driven by secondary assists (same with JVR)
Hayes - scoring has slipped, playing better lately, especially the PK
TK - he stopped scoring goals, but he has those streaks all the time, but otherwise fine except for lapses in back checking and cherry picking at times
Lindblom - stamina is an issue, he can go strong for a couple games, then fades, AV is trying to pace him
Patrick -struggling with timing and fell, but skating well and playing harder
Farabee - slowed down lately but is a solid two way player, obviously needs more experience.
Laughton - slowed down scoring, but he's primarily a checker who can score, not a scorer who checks, good on PK
Raffl - age is showing
NAK - back to inconsistent, not playing with the same fire he had last spring
Bunnaman - skating better, playing worse, needs more AHL time

Provorov - Steadily improving since the break, back to his norm
Braun - playing solid, but he's 33, asking a bit too much of him
Ghost - hasn't played well since the break, some good games, some horrid games
Gus - went from careless to too careful, now makes mistakes b/c he doesn't trust his instincts
Morin - small sample but adds a needed dimension, skating well but looks lost at times, tends to drift
Sanheim - maybe the worst stretch of his career, skills are there but so many D-zone mistakes, looks timid at times
Myers - looks like 2nd year player trying to figure it out, gets caught out of position, outskates some of his mistakes but in the D-zone that doesn't work
Hagg - best stretch of his career before he got injured, good fit with Ghost
Prosser - the less said, the better

 

[TB87]

When so many players are playing poorly at the same time....you gotta figure the coaching staff is having a substantially negative impact here. The players get some blame too of course. But this many players playing badly at the same time? Eeek

 

[BernieParent]

Their play is a direct result of the awful coaching.

They didn't just forgot how to hockey and suddenly become worse players than they were as rookies.

I don't want to pick on you, Reb, but I'll use your post as a general springboard about the "forgot how to play" statement. I just don't see the option as cut-and-dried as this. Of course there wasn't a Space Jam cursed puck that sucked up all of their skills, but it is evident that they are frequently lacking in basic hockey stuff like making and receiving passes. I noticed quite a few examples in last night's game of a pass going up the boards that the Flyer who was standing still awaiting it missed by the nearby Sabre handled efficiently. Hitting a moving teammate with a tape-to-tape pass is also so key to creating scoring opportunities, but how many passes are off the mark, especially where picked off by an opponent? And we see with regularity golden scoring opportunities wasted when a Flyer misses the net, even from close range. We also see this with Hart, who regularly stops shots in his sleep because of his innately great angle play, when he isn't in his own head. I'm willing to bet the farm that this is magnified by the players' frustration and desperation to turn things around, so the hockeying becomes so much more difficult.

 

[Starat327]

When so many players are playing poorly at the same time....you gotta figure the coaching staff is having a substantially negative impact here. The players get some blame too of course. But this many players playing badly at the same time? Eeek

Bingo. Theres plenty of blame to go around for both players and coaches. If one player sucks and makes mistakes, theyre having a bad time. When most of the team is playing below their expected level, its not likely its a coincidence.

 

[Curufinwe]

When so many players are playing poorly at the same time....you gotta figure the coaching staff is having a substantially negative impact here. The players get some blame too of course. But this many players playing badly at the same time? Eeek

The goalies are playing worst of all, as Appleyard has gone into a lot of depth about.

 

[Magua]

This was the first game in years for which I just couldn’t bother. I didn’t tape it; I didn’t start watching and zone out or shut it off; I consciously chose to not watch a single second. And I am a masochist with my Flyers, even through all the lean years. I’m glad I was vindicated. I can watch a team lose games and be entertained and hopeful. The current — and assuredly future — organizational malaise simply broke me with the goings-on this week.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No one thought Farabee was soft. At all. Quite the opposite. His body just didn’t let him play the game like he wanted to.

Patrick is the sunk cost fallacy. The Flyers sunk a #2 overall pick into him, so people want to hang on. Well, guess what? That investment may keep going down. If he’s the difference between making a deal Fletcher likes happen or not happen, bye bye Nolan. Those players who you’re always hoping will turn the corner will kill you. They aren’t worth the aggravation. You can’t rely on them. And Patrick is injury prone, to boot. Best to not have that type on the roster. If he blossoms elsewhere, so be it.

Patrick's value has actually sunk so far in my eyes that we might as well keep him (unless someone specifically wants to buy him) to see if he can raise it. He passed the "sunk cost" stage now. We are beyond that into something else. And if he can't raise his value (by being on the team or dealt from it), oh well, part ways. It's no difference at this point.

 

[baudib1]

This was the first game in years for which I just couldn’t bother. I didn’t tape it; I didn’t start watching and zone out or shut it off; I consciously chose to not watch a single second. And I am a masochist with my Flyers, even through all the lean years. I’m glad I was vindicated. I can watch a team lose games and be entertained and hopeful. The current — and assuredly future — organizational malaise simply broke me with the goings-on this week.

there's no point in watching until they fire all the coaches and Fletcher, and I'm not going to. unless maybe to see how much talent York will be wasting here.

 

[flyerslducks]

No one thought Farabee was soft. At all. Quite the opposite. His body just didn’t let him play the game like he wanted to.

Patrick is the sunk cost fallacy. The Flyers sunk a #2 overall pick into him, so people want to hang on. Well, guess what? That investment may keep going down. If he’s the difference between making a deal Fletcher likes happen or not happen, bye bye Nolan. Those players who you’re always hoping will turn the corner will kill you. They aren’t worth the aggravation. You can’t rely on them. And Patrick is injury prone, to boot. Best to not have that type on the roster. If he blossoms elsewhere, so be it.

a lot of people thought farabee was soft and what your saying in regards to farabee's body can be said for frost as well. We have only seen him play like 30 games and we already want to trade him away. This is what kills organizations. Also, no one is even wanting Patrick, so trading him for picks or for a crap deal to get done is useless. He is a cheap asset and one that can turn into a decent one, why trade it away? We aren't talking about the core guys that you mentioned (tk, Myers) but two young players that haven't really made a dent in their careers yet

 

[Tripod]

I'd say Farabee has excelled and gotten progressively better.

he has

I said dmen or goalie

 

[baudib1]

Patrick's value has actually sunk so far in my eyes that we might as well keep him (unless someone specifically wants to buy him) to see if he can raise it. He passed the "sunk cost" stage now. We are beyond that into something else. And if he can't raise his value (by being on the team or dealt from it), oh well, part ways. It's no difference at this point.

someone would prob give you a 5th-rounder and I'd take it. This is far too much time wasted on someone about whom the best you can say is "well he had a couple of sick hot streaks to finish the year with 30 points a couple times.'

 

[Beef Invictus]

someone would prob give you a 5th-rounder and I'd take it. This is far too much time wasted on someone about whom the best you can say is "well he had a couple of sick hot streaks to finish the year with 30 points a couple times.'

I don't know that I'd jump at a 5th, because presently that 5th isn't gonna become anything better than Patrick.

But a 2nd? Oh yes. I don't know who would offer that though. A 3rd is probably aiming high, and that's a decent chance of producing something better too.

 

[flyerslducks]

someone would prob give you a 5th-rounder and I'd take it. This is far too much time wasted on someone about whom the best you can say is "well he had a couple of sick hot streaks to finish the year with 30 points a couple times.'

wtf is the point of a 5th though? Makes absolutely zero sense to just trade a player who can possibly turn into a decent bottom 6 (at the min) for something that will turn into nothing (most likely)

 

[baudib1]

I don't know that I'd jump at a 5th, because presently that 5th isn't gonna become anything better than Patrick.

But a 2nd? Oh yes. I don't know who would offer that though. A 3rd is probably aiming high, and that's a decent chance of producing something better too.

I'd set the over/under on his remaining career around 150 games, 40 points.

 

[baudib1]

wtf is the point of a 5th though? Makes absolutely zero sense to just trade a player who can possibly turn into a decent bottom 6 (at the min) for something that will turn into nothing (most likely)

you realize this post concedes he's not a decent bottom 6 currently?

 

[flyerslducks]

you realize this post concedes he's not a decent bottom 6 currently?

this is where the problem begins

 

[marcsson68]

When I travel back in time to the days of Dave Hakstol I see people putting the blame upon the coach, fourth liners and bottom pairing defensemen. Sounds familiar?
I remember that in my head the picture was a bit different because under Hakstol we only had very few good players and absolutely no goaltending at all.

Well, one thing for sure has changed. The middle of the lineup is better now and on paper we have more quality overall. On the other hand two of our three best players are not as great anymore as they used to be. Still good, but not great.
Our goaltending still stinks. With that save percentage it is impossible to blame it on the players alone.

So what does it mean? Was Dave Hakstol better than AV when he managed to get mediocre results out of a much worse squad? I‘m asking this because many people here who really had a lot to write how bad a coach Hakstol was are the same who now see AV as the source of failure.

Or are they both equally bad and our players simply not better than back then?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

a lot of people thought farabee was soft and what your saying in regards to farabee's body can be said for frost as well. We have only seen him play like 30 games and we already want to trade him away. This is what kills organizations. Also, no one is even wanting Patrick, so trading him for picks or for a crap deal to get done is useless. He is a cheap asset and one that can turn into a decent one, why trade it away? We aren't talking about the core guys that you mentioned (tk, Myers) but two young players that haven't really made a dent in their careers yet

I don't recall reading one post suggesting Farabee was soft, and he plays an entirely different style than does Frost.

 

[Tripod]

man...I was hard on Patrick but even I am 100% willing to keep letting him play to get more games under his belt AND finally have an off season where he can train hard.

Let him and Frost battle it out for the #3C spot if we don't lose a F in the ED. If we do, than they can be part of the 3rd line. EZPZ.

And if Patrick is still struggling....then he will battle it out with Laczynski for #4C. At least he is still dirt cheap so we are not stuck with a bad contract with him. He is going to get paid around 1 million....so cheap depth with upside.

 

[Magua]

I don't know that I'd jump at a 5th, because presently that 5th isn't gonna become anything better than Patrick.

But a 2nd? Oh yes. I don't know who would offer that though. A 3rd is probably aiming high, and that's a decent chance of producing something better too.

At age 19-20, he was a 30-35 point break even possession center. He missed his age 21 season. Age 22 season, he has some of the worst luck in the league on a systematically putrid, flop of a team, as he returns after a long layoff. He hasn't any major injury where there's physical degradation.

We need to back off the ledge, I think. I'll gladly take the chance on him returning to his prior form, if not finding an additional gear, at the opportunity cost of a 2nd-3rd round pick. And I like my picks, and I'm not against aggressive evaluating. He's cheap, and he's controllable too. It's a shame we don't have the perspective of a season with Frost (Laczynski too?), but even then, it doesn't make Patrick a justifiable loss. He's not Curtis Lazar.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Remember the silver lining in all of this...they will have to sign for less.

 

[Rebels57]

I don't want to pick on you, Reb, but I'll use your post as a general springboard about the "forgot how to play" statement. I just don't see the option as cut-and-dried as this. Of course there wasn't a Space Jam cursed puck that sucked up all of their skills, but it is evident that they are frequently lacking in basic hockey stuff like making and receiving passes. I noticed quite a few examples in last night's game of a pass going up the boards that the Flyer who was standing still awaiting it missed by the nearby Sabre handled efficiently. Hitting a moving teammate with a tape-to-tape pass is also so key to creating scoring opportunities, but how many passes are off the mark, especially where picked off by an opponent? And we see with regularity golden scoring opportunities wasted when a Flyer misses the net, even from close range. We also see this with Hart, who regularly stops shots in his sleep because of his innately great angle play, when he isn't in his own head. I'm willing to bet the farm that this is magnified by the players' frustration and desperation to turn things around, so the hockeying becomes so much more difficult.

Yes you do.

 

[Rebels57]

wtf is the point of a 5th though? Makes absolutely zero sense to just trade a player who can possibly turn into a decent bottom 6 (at the min) for something that will turn into nothing (most likely)

It's almost like Sharp for Ellison never happened.

 

[baudib1]

When I travel back in time to the days of Dave Hakstol I see people putting the blame upon the coach, fourth liners and bottom pairing defensemen. Sounds familiar?
I remember that in my head the picture was a bit different because under Hakstol we only had very few good players and absolutely no goaltending at all.

Well, one thing for sure has changed. The middle of the lineup is better now and on paper we have more quality overall. On the other hand two of our three best players are not as great anymore as they used to be. Still good, but not great.
Our goaltending still stinks. With that save percentage it is impossible to blame it on the players alone.

So what does it mean? Was Dave Hakstol better than AV when he managed to get mediocre results out of a much worse squad? I‘m asking this because many people here who really had a lot to write how bad a coach Hakstol was are the same who now see AV as the source of failure.

Or are they both equally bad and our players simply not better than back then?

I apologize for what will probably be an obnoxious-sounding post, but something I realized about sp0rts at an early age is that the ability of coaches/managers is not fixed. probably the best way to explain this is that, surely you can relate to a job that you care about and how effective you are at your job when you have a new boss, compared to 10 months later when you've realized he's a dumb f***ing idiot.

all coaches lose effectiveness over time, every single one, unless they retire on top. Hakstol was a terrible coach who had the benefit of prime Giroux/Voracek/Simmer and the boost of Ghost's best seasons. All of these guys were fully formed players who Hakstol had no part in developing. You can give him some credit for Couts if you want.

Hakstol was kept on 2+ years too long. After that guy anyone is going to improve the team. AV is roughly anyone.